144,000: The first resurrection and rapture of the church

[ATG]

Ezekiel 47 says otherwise. Children of convert parents can't inherit land from their parents if they don't already own it. The issue with their children being considered natural born is that they won't have to convert like their parents did. It will be as if their parents are natural born, which by law they are.

Eze 47:23
And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD.

The problem with your point here, which is true, is that you teach it in context of the error, that converting non Jews 'become' natural Jews of a tribe. Only children born of an Israelite Jew can be a natural born Israelite Jew. The same in any race, and people, and nation on earth. There is no 'spiritual' changing of one's natural genealogy.

The law has always allowed for 'immigrants' to convert and intermarry with Israelites, so that their children are natural born Israelites. But the immigrant converts remain natural born of the nation they come from. Ruth remained a Moabitess in Scripture:

Rth 4:10
Moreover Ruth the Moabitess, the wife of Mahlon, have I purchased to be my wife, to raise up the name of the dead upon his inheritance, that the name of the dead be not cut off from among his brethren, and from the gate of his place: ye are witnesses this day.

But gave birth to natural Israelites by Boaz, of whom would be born David.

Your effort to teach other nations 'becoming' natural Israeli Jews by conversion alone, is false.

However, your argument from Ezek 47 is spot on. It's not the same as the OT law, where only natural Israeli's could inherit land promised by God. Even fellow Israelites that buy their neighbor's land, had to return it to the original family inheritance at Jubilee, and not keep it as their own family inheritance.

But, in Ezek 47 when the King Himself gives the land promised to Abraham and his natural seed, they will not expel the previous owners of land.

Unlike the children of Israel out of Egypt, commanded to drive out the previous owners of the land, the remnant natural children of Israel at the Lord's return, will inherit the land with the previous owners keeping whatever land, that is now within a natural tribe's inheritance.

Unlike in the OT, the returning Lord and King will not expel and replace any previous owners, that remain alive in the promised Millennial land of Israel: Which will be from the river Nile along the Sea Coast to Euphrates.

Your 'spiritualized conversion' from one natural genealogy to another, is false. Your point about strangers remaining with inheritance among the natural tribes of Israeli Jews, is good news to those previous land owners. And new news to me. Thanks much.

 

[memberofthebride]

So then, you're preaching a spiritual resurrection, not bodily, with a spiritual Millennium, not physically? That false prophecy has been ongoing for centuries, especially during the days of Catholic Christendom, where the Catholic service to God is to conquer/convert all nations...It's called the Catholic Church militant.

Of course, it's not a millennium, since it's already been for thousands of years, and not just the one thousand years prophesied in Scripture.



Ezekiel 37 is not raising dead people back to mortal flesh and blood, to live naturally again on earth.

Eze 37:7
So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.

Only flesh and bone. No blood.

Ezek 37 is a bodily resurrection to immortal flesh and bone, the same as Jesus Christ.

Luk 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

And, it's only saved Israel of God, not of any wicked dead. So, it must be the first resurrection of the saints, that is in the likeness of Jesus Christ.

Rom 6:5
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Rev 20:5
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Eze 37:10
So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel:

It's the fullness of the nations come into the grafted Israel of God, which will be the bodily resurrection wedding of Christ and His beloved church:

Gen 2:23
And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.




The next resurrection after the thousand years, is the rest of the dead unto judgment of works at the GWT.


Yes, all people that sinned, must repent for Jesus' sake and be born of the Spirit into His kingdom.



The longest natural life of any man was 969 years, not 1000. Your 100 years and 100 billion stuff is made up. No Bible for it.

I only teach Scripture, and only receive teaching of Scripture. I have no interest in personal imaginations.

Act 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.



The GWT judgment is of the rest of the resurrected dead, after Satan is loosed at the end of the Millennium. He'll lead one last rebellion of nations against the Lord, and be devoured by fire without war.

You do two things wrong when trying to teach the Bible: You don't teach it as written, and you add your own personal imagination to it.

Rev 22:18
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:


Now you've skipped the judgment of works by books.

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.



The first bodily resurrection is Jesus Christ
The first resurrection of all His saints, is the first resurrection of His church.
The next resurrection is of all the rest of the dead after a thousand years. They will be all the wicked since Cain, and all the saved saints during the Millennium.

At that bodily resurrection is the GWT judgment of works, where the saints of the Millennium will be found written in the Lamb's book of life, and the wicked of all history will not be found therein, and cast into the LOF.

I can not convinced you and you are not convincing me - so we shall see

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

he problem with your point here, which is true, is that you teach it in context of the error, that converting non Jews 'become' natural Jews of a tribe. Only children born of an Israelite Jew can be a natural born Israelite Jew. The same in any race, and people, and nation on earth. There is no 'spiritual' changing of one's natural genealogy.

This is just ethno-supremacism. God hates it.

 

[ATG]

Your view is internally consistent,
I want to give a special honor and thanks to you. Very few people actually look at another's argument enough to judge if it is at least consistent with itself.

Revelation never explicitly says the 144,000 are the entirety of the first resurrection.

Exactly again. And I'll answer the 2nd good point first.

For the argument itself, I try to make it clear at the outset, that if the 144,000, especially from Rev 14, is resurrection from the dead, then it must be the first resurrection of the blessed saints at the Lamb's return.

Quote:
In Rev 7, the 144,000 are sealed in the forehead on earth. In Rev 14 the 144,000 are sealed with the name of the Father, and they are now standing with the Lamb of God on Mt Sion.

Therefore, the 144,000 are resurrected and ascended with the Lamb Jesus Christ. This must be the first resurrection of the blessed and holy saints of God. There are only two resurrections from the dead (Other than that of the man Jesus Christ), where the first resurrection is all saints, and the next resurrection of the rest of the dead, includes both the good and the bad, whose names are written and not written in the Lamb's book of life.

Here are the objections I've seen:
1. The 144,000 is only a sealing of saints of earth, and not a bodily resurrection. Mt Sion in Rev 14 is earthly Mt Zion.

First, in Scripture Mt Sion is not Mt Zion. Specifically from Deut 4:48 & Heb 12:22. Second, other than the problem of a144,000 people + 1 standing on Mt Zion of Jerusalem. That 1 extra is the risen Lamb of God Jesus Christ in person. Which is not before He comes again.

2. There are three resurrections from the dead, after Jesus Christ Himself. So that, it's a resurrection of the first 144,000 of the Lamb's church.

This is meaningless, since it's still the first resurrection of the body of Christ at His return.

Revelation 7 and 14 describe a specific, numbered group tied to Israel, while Revelation 20 speaks of the first resurrection more broadly. That gap is where many see distinction rather than identity.

It's always best to be literal than symbolic, if it's necessary. In this case it's not.

Scripture has many numbers representing the character of the numbered. 7 and 666 being the most recognized. And of course the 144,000 signifying fullness of totality, is a common interpretation more so than a literal number.

While majority doesn't rule, a minority interpretation certainly doesn't over rule. Therefore, an objection between the 144,000 in Rev 7,14 and the fulness of the saints resurrected at the Lord's return in Rev 20, is not at all negated by literalcy.

I.e. the comparison is a minority objection, that has little effect on the main argument: If it is the bodily resurrection of the Israel of God, then it must be the first resurrection of all nations come into His holy nation, at the risen God of Israel's return.

 

[ATG]

Your view is internally consistent, but it hinges on equating the 144,000 directly with the whole body of resurrected saints.

And so, what is the full argument for the 144,000 being a signified number for a physical resurrection?

1. Mixing literal and signs in Scripture, is certainly well known. Such as the number 666, that is the number of a man. A physical man numbered as 666. And so, a fulness of physically resurrected saints numbered as 144, 000. And the 7 Spirits of God signifying the one true Spirit of God.

Rev 4:1
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter...And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

John saw a signified number of Spirits of God numbered at 7, which is one true Spirit. And so, John heard a signified number of saints numbered at 144,000, which is one whole resurrection of saints.

2. John heard the number of them which were sealed. Hearing the number of them, can also mean hearing them in full number. As with hearing them altogether in the resurrection and rapture of the church.

1 Thess 4:15
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John did not necessarily hear someone state their number, but heard a great number of people, the same as later in Rev 19.

Rev 19:6
And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

John heard a great multitude with one voice, and so John also heard a great number with one voice.

 

[ATG]

Revelation never explicitly says the 144,000 are the entirety of the first resurrection.

3. If it's the full number of saints, that John heard, then that multitude must also have given voice. What did they say?

Psa 5:11
But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee.

If it is the first resurrection at the Lord's return, then no doubt all the resurrected saints shall ever shout for joy, being ever with the Lord:

1 Th 4:15
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Even as when the children of Israel gave shout at the sound of the trump, and the walls of Jericho fell flat:

Jos 6:5
And it shall come to pass, that when they make a long blast with the ram's horn, and when ye hear the sound of the trumpet, all the people shall shout with a great shout; and the wall of the city shall fall down flat, and the people shall ascend up every man straight before him.

1Co 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

With the sound of the trump, the Lord and all His resurrected saints shall shout, and ascend up every one straight into the air, to meet and ever be with the Lord...

4. 12 x 12000 = 144,000 not only signifies fulness but also squareness, even as the measure of New Jerusalem:

Rev 21:10
And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,...And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

The names of the 12 tribes of the children of Israel on the gates of the foursquare city New Jerusalem, are the names of the 12 tribes of the 144,000 children of Israel, signifying foursquare in number.

Revelation 7 and 14 describe a specific, numbered group tied to Israel, while Revelation 20 speaks of the first resurrection more broadly. That gap is where many see distinction rather than identity.

With all this supplemental teaching from the Scriptures, a single counter-argument of a heard number's literalcy not sufficient. Especially when in this case, a literal number interpretation is in the minority.

Thanks for the logical challenges.

 

[ATG]

This is just ethno-supremacism. God hates it.

This a stupid false accusation of a failed argument, that God hates. Especially as an insult to intelligence.

I've allowed myself to be corrected by you on another point, and I've stated my thanks. But you are showing petty refusal to be corrected yourself.

When you can prove that as a natural born American, I can become a natural born Jew, Brit, Russian, Afghani, or Ethiopian then let me know. Otherwise, you can keep your racial prejudice to yourself.

Goodbye

 

[ATG]

There are no mountains "in the air". All mountains are on the Earth.

The risen Lamb will not stand on any mountain on earth, till after His return to earth.

Especially not with 144,000 saints, who will rise to meet Him in the air...

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

This a stupid false accusation of a failed argument, that God hates. Especially as an insult to intelligence.

I've allowed myself to be corrected by you on another point, and I've stated my thanks. But you are showing petty refusal to be corrected yourself.

When you can prove that as a natural born American, I can become a natural born Jew, Brit, Russian, Afghani, or Ethiopian then let me know. Otherwise, you can keep your racial prejudice to yourself.

Goodbye

You hangup is "natural born". God doesn't give a flip about that now. It's all about faith now.

 

[ATG]

There are no mountains "in the air". All mountains are on the Earth.

Deu 4:48
From Aroer, which is by the bank of the river Arnon, even unto mount Sion, which is Hermon,

Mt Sion of Hermon, is not Mt Zion of Jerusalem.

The returned Lamb will be standing upon Mt Sion with His resurrected saints, where the nations of the earth will gather to make war with Him at the valley of Armageddon, which is by Mt Hermon in the north of Judea Israel. Not west at Mt Zion and Jerusalem.

 

[ATG]

I can not convinced you and you are not convincing me - so we shall see

True. Though as a common courtesy, I'm still trying to figure out exactly what you're trying say. It keeps morphing as we go. Which is the problem when people mix personal imagination with Scripture. Especially by taking away and adding words to the Scriptures.

But, as you say, we'll see.

 

[memberofthebride]

True. Though as a common courtesy, I'm still trying to figure out exactly what you're trying say. It keeps morphing as we go. Which is the problem when people mix personal imagination with Scripture. Especially by taking away and adding words to the Scriptures.

But, as you say, we'll see.

I hope this helps:

I match scriptures, Old and New testament, all that I can fine to reach conclusions and I confirm using logic,

I will give you an example of my logic

Revelations reveal there IS a Lake of Fire in which those sentenced to the second death are cast.

Revelation 20
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Logically, how can a person die for the second time unless they died for the first time and how can a person die for the second time unless they came back to physical life for the second time

I match this with Ezekiel 37 which I see as the 2nd resurrection after the 1000 year back to physical life and to a life time for judging whether they will repent.

to say they are only flesh and Bone, then why do they need to breath air?

9Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. 10So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

And if any refuse to repent and obey, they must be flesh and blood to die the second time in the Lake of fire.

 

[ewq1938]

Deu 4:48
From Aroer, which is by the bank of the river Arnon, even unto mount Sion, which is Hermon,

Mt Sion of Hermon, is not Mt Zion of Jerusalem.

So? Some mountains on Earth have the same name but that Sion is not the Sion next to Jerusalem:

Heb_12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

In the NT, Sion and Zion are the same mountain and it's on Earth not in heaven because heaven has no huge piles of rocks and dirt.

The returned Lamb will be standing upon Mt Sion with His resurrected saints, where the nations of the earth will gather to make war with Him at the valley of Armageddon,

Wrong. Mt Sion is at Jerusalem but Armageddon is about 66 miles from there.

 

[Psalm1]

Your view is internally consistent, but it hinges on equating the 144,000 directly with the whole body of resurrected saints. Revelation never explicitly says the 144,000 are the entirety of the first resurrection. Revelation 7 and 14 describe a specific, numbered group tied to Israel, while Revelation 20 speaks of the first resurrection more broadly. That gap is where many see distinction rather than identity.

I have yet to see anyone in the discussion, save myself, identify WHAT the 144k are.
The bible says they are FIRSTFRUITS.

Maybe, just maybe, the bible is correct.
FIRSTFRUIT Jews.

That would be an excellent starting place.
So many here are extremely troubled by who and what the 144k jews are.
...so they make up all kinds of things about them.

 

[ATG]

I hope this helps:

I hope so too.

I match scriptures, Old and New testament, all that I can fine to reach conclusions and I confirm using logic,

Exactly. It's how Scripture itself says to teach the Scriptures:

Isa 28:10
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Neh 8:8
So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

The whole Book of the law is read, therefore any sense of the verses must be in context of all the Book of Scriptures.

I will give you an example of my logic

Good, let's see it.

Revelations reveal there IS a Lake of Fire in which those sentenced to the second death are cast.

Revelation 20
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Good so far. And accurate enough with the sense of the Scriptures as written. And most importantly, Without any other Scriptures to contradict it.

Logically, how can a person die for the second time unless they died for the first time

Good again, logically speaking.

and how can a person die for the second time unless they came back to physical life for the second time

Now you have ventured into a teaching about death, that is not in the verses given. As though they said the second death is physical.

Here is where your logic confined to one verse, attempts to teach something, that requires other verses, that you do not give. You are not matching your interpretation of this verse with other verses, to prove it's so.

Instead, there are other verses that teach both physical and spiritual death, which is the principle revelation of the Bible to natural men and women on earth. And that spiritual death of the soul is first, that afterward leads to physical death of the body on earth.

Gen 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Ezek 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Adam and Eve died spiritually to God the day they transgressed, even as God warned, and then their bodies died hundreds of years latter.

Col 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Spiritual death is during the life of the body on earth.

Heb{9:27}
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Physical death is only once, and then the judgment of the life lived. Therefore, a surface logic of Scripture isolated from other Scripture, results in a false teaching of physically dying twice, that is without knowledge of Bible teaching of spiritual death.

 

[ATG]

Logically, how can a person die for the second time unless they died for the first time and how can a person die for the second time unless they came back to physical life for the second time

I match this with Ezekiel 37 which I see as the 2nd resurrection after the 1000 year back to physical life and to a life time for judging whether they will repent.https://biblesuite.com/greek/4442.htm

https://biblesuite.com/greek/4442.htm

You match a false teaching of natural logic alone, out of context with Scriptural spiritual truth.

Once to die, and after that the judgment, forbids a post-mortem second chance to repent, whether by Catholic purgatory of the soul in hell, or Millennial bodily reincarnation.

to say they are only flesh and Bone, then why do they need to breath air?
https://biblesuite.com/greek/4442.htm

https://biblesuite.com/greek/4442.htm
They don't, since they are immortal flesh and bone bodies. The same as Jesus, with no natural blood needing to breathe corruptible air of the earth.

Luk 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Rom 6:5
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Even as Jesus mortal dead body of flesh and blood was planted in the grave, and rose again with immortal flesh and bone, so shall all His saints in the first resurrection of His blessed church.

Rev 20:5
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

9Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. 10So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

https://biblesuite.com/hebrew/2428.htm

Which is the first resurrection of the saints unto eternal life, with immortal flesh and bones, as seen with the verse once again in context:

Eze 37:7
So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.

Resurrected to flesh and bone bodies; no blood.

Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

Mat 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The first resurrection of the church bodily with immortal flesh and bones, with the four winds being gathered together to meet the Lord in the air.

This is how Scriptures are matched with Scriptures, by the plain logic of their words matching. No mismatching by errant logic mismatched with the words of other Scriptures.

And if any refuse to repent and obey, they must be flesh and blood to die the second time in the Lake of fire.

And if any refuse to repent and obey in our one life on earth, the soul must live again to be judged, and die to God the second time in the Lake of fire.

Rev 20:11
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

We see this heaven and earth are fled away, while the rest of the dead live again to stand before God, and be judged by works.

There is no more earth found for flesh and blood to stand upon.

As you say, flesh and blood need the earth's air to breathe, and so also needs the earth's land to stand upon...But if not flesh and blood, then no need for the earth to breathe and stand upon.

Scripture must match Scripture with matching words, and logic must match all Scriptures by their plainly matching words.

2Ti 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

You consistently use a surface logic of your own for one verse of Scripture, that is isolated out of context, and then mismatch the Scriptures by that false logic:

Eze 13:12
Lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it?...So will I break down the wall that ye have daubed with untempered morter, and bring it down to the ground, so that the foundation thereof shall be discovered, and it shall fall,

 

[ATG]

So? Some mountains on Earth have the same name but that Sion is not the Sion next to Jerusalem:

Now you make two 'Sions', with only one in Scripture.

Heb_12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

That and this Sion is next to the heavenly Jerusalem.

Wrong. Mt Sion is at Jerusalem but Armageddon is about 66 miles from there.

Wrong. Mt Sion is above Mt Hermon of Israel, and Armageddon is about the same miles from there.

Many miles travel by road from Jerusalem, no time at all straight shot from Mt Sion in the air.

The Lord Jesus will return with glory through the air from east to west. His saints will be resurrected bodily, and will rise up from the earth at the four winds. They will be gathered by angels to meet altogether with the Lord in the air. They will be with the Lord standing on Mt Sion above Mt Hermon of northern Israel. The armies of the nations will gather themselves together in the valley of Armageddon to make war with the Lamb in the air. The Lord and His saints will descend from the air above Mt Hermon, and destroy their armies with the brightness of His coming.

There's nothing confusing about this, unless it's rejected as being 'unnatural', and therefore unrealistic.

1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually acknowledged.

 

[memberofthebride]

You match a false teaching of natural logic alone, out of context with Scriptural spiritual truth.

Once to die, and after that the judgment, forbids a post-mortem second chance to repent, whether by Catholic purgatory of the soul in hell, or Millennial bodily reincarnation.

They don't, since they are immortal flesh and bone bodies. The same as Jesus, with no natural blood needing to breathe corruptible air of the earth.

Luk 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Rom 6:5
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Even as Jesus mortal dead body of flesh and blood was planted in the grave, and rose again with immortal flesh and bone, so shall all His saints in the first resurrection of His blessed church.

Rev 20:5
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Which is the first resurrection of the saints unto eternal life, with immortal flesh and bones, as seen with the verse once again in context:

Eze 37:7
So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.

Resurrected to flesh and bone bodies; no blood.

Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

Mat 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The first resurrection of the church bodily with immortal flesh and bones, with the four winds being gathered together to meet the Lord in the air.

This is how Scriptures are matched with Scriptures, by the plain logic of their words matching. No mismatching by errant logic mismatched with the words of other Scriptures.



And if any refuse to repent and obey in our one life on earth, the soul must live again to be judged, and die to God the second time in the Lake of fire.

Rev 20:11
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

We see this heaven and earth are fled away, while the rest of the dead live again to stand before God, and be judged by works.

There is no more earth found for flesh and blood to stand upon.

As you say, flesh and blood need the earth's air to breathe, and so also needs the earth's land to stand upon...But if not flesh and blood, then no need for the earth to breathe and stand upon.

Scripture must match Scripture with matching words, and logic must match all Scriptures by their plainly matching words.

2Ti 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

You consistently use a surface logic of your own for one verse of Scripture, that is isolated out of context, and then mismatch the Scriptures by that false logic:

Eze 13:12
Lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it?...So will I break down the wall that ye have daubed with untempered morter, and bring it down to the ground, so that the foundation thereof shall be discovered, and it shall fall,

Comment:

"Once to die, and after that the judgment, forbids a post-mortem second chance to repent, whether by Catholic purgatory of the soul in hell, or Millennial bodily reincarnation."

I agree with nothing you wrote above.

It is appointed for men to die once and then the Judgement --- I accepts this as fact! truth of God!

So, doing things your way means all those the died at birth, that die at one month at 6 month and all those over the last 6000 years that lived in countries like Africa, Australia and even Japan and China ---- that never had an opportunity to repent, how could they if the never heard of sin, never heard of Jesus Christ? and who would baptize them--- What? they go to hell --- if that is the god you follow ---- I pass.

all those over the last 6000 years that never had their ONE chance for eternal life are raised back to physical human life --- after the 1000 years ---and THEN get their one chance to repent and Jesus Christ will be on earth to teach and guide them plus all those raise to Spirit at the first resurrection will be there to assist,

this is the God I worship and follow!

even to day, of the 8 billion alive at this moment only 2 billion are some "kind" of christian -- the others are pagans, do all the muslims, with IQ's of 60, which is standard for them, are you saying they also go to hell?

too many holes in your process

 

[ewq1938]

Now you make two 'Sions', with only one in Scripture.

No, I didn't make anything. I study the bible which is how I know about this. Why don't you know this?


Deu 4:48 From Aroer, which is by the bank of the river Arnon, even unto mount Sion, which is Hermon,

Gill

even unto Mount Sion, which is Hermon; the meaning is, that the lands of these two kings conquered by Israel reached from the city Aroer on the river Arnon to Mount Hermon, the one being the southern, the other the northern boundary of them. Here Hermon has another name Sion, and is to be carefully distinguished from Mount Zion near Jerusalem; it lying in a different country, and being written with a different letter in the Hebrew language.

Wrong. Mt Sion is above Mt Hermon of Israel, and Armageddon is about the same miles from there.

Many miles travel by road from Jerusalem, no time at all straight shot from Mt Sion in the air.

There is no such thing as a mountain in the air.

There's nothing confusing about this, unless it's rejected as being 'unnatural', and therefore unrealistic.

It's not scriptural.

 

[memberofthebride]

Comment:

"Once to die, and after that the judgment, forbids a post-mortem second chance to repent, whether by Catholic purgatory of the soul in hell, or Millennial bodily reincarnation."

I agree with nothing you wrote above.

It is appointed for men to die once and then the Judgement --- I accepts this as fact! truth of God!

So, doing things your way means all those the died at birth, that die at one month at 6 month and all those over the last 6000 years that lived in countries like Africa, Australia and even Japan and China ---- that never had an opportunity to repent, how could they if the never heard of sin, never heard of Jesus Christ? and who would baptize them--- What? they go to hell --- if that is the god you follow ---- I pass.

all those over the last 6000 years that never had their ONE chance for eternal life are raised back to physical human life --- after the 1000 years ---and THEN get their one chance to repent and Jesus Christ will be on earth to teach and guide them plus all those raise to Spirit at the first resurrection will be there to assist,

this is the God I worship and follow!

even to day, of the 8 billion alive at this moment only 2 billion are some "kind" of christian -- the others are pagans, do all the muslims, with IQ's of 60, which is standard for them, are you saying they also go to hell?

too many holes in your process

one more,, Our Father will resurrect even those that were aborted and they will have there opportunity for LIFE.
David's first child with Bathsheba, died soon after birth, that child will get it chance for Life.

Please please do not say "all babies that die go to heaven" PLease do not go there