Works of the Law

[vassal]

Do you know what the kingdom of God is? Obviously not. If you belong to God's kingdom, you have power and authority.
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power." 1 Corinthians 4:20
Also 2 Corinthians 10:4, 1 Corinthians 2:4, 1 Thessalonians 1:5 and Acts 1:8

you speaks of Gifts, the gifts of the spirit that God gives in some measure as HE pleases not power or authority, the 12 disciples got power to judge, peter the keys to heaven , to bind and unbind from eternal life NOT everyone! only the 12 !
if needed I can explain further let me know i will provide all verses.

 

[vassal]

Do you believe a person must believe the sound doctrine of Jesus Christ if they are ever to get to heaven?

I do yes!

 

[Soyeong]

Maybe its you? Maybe you are confusing the authoritiy of Paul that comes directly from Jesus with your self made authority?

You deny what Jesus said about His blood being the covenant yet pretend to hang on every word Jesus says. Every word but that one, right?

You fit right in with the Judaizers that Paul confronted. You are a person who looks on the outward performance, but God looks on the heart. It seems Judaizers cannot stand to hear that Jesus alone atoned for us and all our works are as filthy rages. Are you familar with that verse? Surely you must be since you hang out in the Old Testament so much.

1. Early Church Period: Opposition to Paul began in the early church, shortly after his ministry started. The book of Acts and Paul’s own letters reflect the fact that he was frequently met with hostility, particularly from Jewish-Christian groups who believed in the necessity of adhering to the Mosaic Law. These groups, sometimes referred to as Judaizers, insisted that Gentile converts must follow Jewish customs, such as circumcision and dietary laws, in addition to believing in Christ. Paul vehemently opposed this view, especially in his letters to the Galatians and Romans, where he argued that justification is by faith in Christ alone, apart from the works of the law

In Matthew 4:15-23, Christ began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom. Christ also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6). So Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example and if that is what makes someone a Judaism, then he was a Judaizer, however, the problem that Paul had with the Judaizers was not that they were teaching Gentiles how to follow what Christ taught but that they were wanting to require Gentiles to become circumcised (become Jews) in order to become saved/justified.

In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through his ministry and through the cross is by repenting and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law (Acts 21:20). The reason why Jesus established the New Covenant was not in order to nullify anything that he spent his ministry teaching, in order to nullify what he accomplished through the cross, or so that we could continue to have the same lawlessness that caused the New Covenant to be needed in the first place, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31;33, Ezekiel 36:26-27).

In Isaiah 64:6, it is not God speaking about how he views our obedience to Him, but rather it is the people hyperbolically complaining about God not coming down and making His presence known. The reality is that God is not commander of filthy rags but rather the righteous deeds of the saints are like fine white linen (Revelation 19:8).

That is not what James said. As it is, many people do good works and yet they are not Christians. Works save no one. People who constantly talk about works and the works they do, are not about following Jesus. Those people are all about themselves and boasting when the only thing we should boast about, is Jesus.

By the way, what part does the Holy Spirit play in your life?

There is nothing about someone encouraging people to the works that Jesus spent his ministry teaching us to do that indicates that they not about following Jesus, but just the opposite. If someone boasts in the wrong thing, then criticize them for that, but don't make sweeping generalizations. In Titus 2:11-13, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so doing this works in obedience to the Mosaic Law has nothing to do with boasting or with trying to be good enough to earn our salvation, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those part of the content of our gift salvation.

 

[vassal]

Try studying the rest of the scriptures regarding the law. I'm not going over it again. And the 10 commandments came through Moses. So it is indeed the law of Moses.

Gideon, the Ten Commandments were written by God’s own finger on two tablets of stone. Moses had nothing to do with writing them; he only delivered them to the people, and so he did. God also commanded him to build the Ark of the Covenant to place the Ten Commandments—the Covenant itself—inside.

The Ark was covered with the Mercy Seat, and on the Mercy Seat were two cherubim facing each other, with their wings covering the Mercy Seat. Between the cherubim is where the Glory of the Lord appeared in the tabernacle in the desert.

If one cannot see the holiness and great importance God places on the Ten Commandments, they are blind. These commandments will never pass away until the earth itself passes away.

Why is it called the Mercy Seat? Because without God’s presence through His Holy Spirit, we cannot obey or understand the commandments from the heart as He desires. This is the point of the New Covenant: to write these laws or commandments in our hearts so that God’s people may live and be holy.

 

[Dino246]

This is the point of the New Covenant: to write these laws or commandments in our hearts so that God’s people may live and be holy.

Refuted in another thread.

 

[Blue155]

2 Cor. 3:1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.4 ¶ And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.7 ¶ But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Gal. 2:1 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage

Gal. 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal. 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.5 ¶ He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he itby the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Gal. 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Eph. 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Gideon300]

you speaks of Gifts, the gifts of the spirit that God gives in some measure as HE pleases not power or authority, the 12 disciples got power to judge, peter the keys to heaven , to bind and unbind from eternal life NOT everyone! only the 12 !
if needed I can explain further let me know i will provide all verses.

You do not have to explain anything. The same Jesus that lived in Peter/Paul/James/John lives in me. I do not have their calling, but I do have power over all the power of the enemy.

You do not know the difference between gifts and the indwelling Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is given without measure. John 3:34. The Holy Spirit was given to Lord Jesus when he was exalted and He poured out the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:33)

I can assure you that the Lord Jesus is no different now than when He was exalted to God's right hand. His power and might are unchanged. You think that only apostles could do signs and wonders? You are wrong. Stephen was a deacon, yet he also did mighty works. Philip was an evangelist. He did many signs in Samaria. I've cast out demons many times. It's nothing special, no more than a policeman arresting a crook. It's the authority given to him by the government. I exercise the authority give to me by Jesus.

 

[Gideon300]

Gideon, the Ten Commandments were written by God’s own finger on two tablets of stone. Moses had nothing to do with writing them; he only delivered them to the people, and so he did. God also commanded him to build the Ark of the Covenant to place the Ten Commandments—the Covenant itself—inside.

The Ark was covered with the Mercy Seat, and on the Mercy Seat were two cherubim facing each other, with their wings covering the Mercy Seat. Between the cherubim is where the Glory of the Lord appeared in the tabernacle in the desert.

If one cannot see the holiness and great importance God places on the Ten Commandments, they are blind. These commandments will never pass away until the earth itself passes away.

Why is it called the Mercy Seat? Because without God’s presence through His Holy Spirit, we cannot obey or understand the commandments from the heart as He desires. This is the point of the New Covenant: to write these laws or commandments in our hearts so that God’s people may live and be holy.

Tell me where the stone tablets are now. You are blind to the purpose of the law. I've tried to explain, but you refuse to accept it. You live in the shadows if you wish. I live in the light who is also my life.

 

[mailmandan]

James is clear, You can see, then, that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

James is clear when taken in context.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

James is not using the term "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

 

[vassal]

You do not have to explain anything. The same Jesus that lived in Peter/Paul/James/John lives in me. I do not have their calling, but I do have power over all the power of the enemy.

You do not know the difference between gifts and the indwelling Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is given without measure. John 3:34. The Holy Spirit was given to Lord Jesus when he was exalted and He poured out the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:33)

I can assure you that the Lord Jesus is no different now than when He was exalted to God's right hand. His power and might are unchanged. You think that only apostles could do signs and wonders? You are wrong. Stephen was a deacon, yet he also did mighty works. Philip was an evangelist. He did many signs in Samaria. I've cast out demons many times. It's nothing special, no more than a policeman arresting a crook. It's the authority given to him by the government. I exercise the authority give to me by Jesus.

There are a few important distinctions that Scripture itself makes which should not be blurred.
First, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not the same thing as delegated authority or office. All who belong to Christ receive the Spirit, but not all receive the same authority, role, or commission. Jesus Himself chose the Twelve and gave them specific authority that He did not give to everyone. He said to them, “As My Father hath sent Me, even so send I you” (John 20:21), and to them He spoke of judging the twelve tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:28). That authority is never given to the general body of believers.
Second, Luke 10:19 was spoken to a specific group on a specific mission, not as a universal promise of ongoing personal authority for all believers in every age. Even within the Gospels, Jesus did not give the same authority to every disciple at all times. Authority was given, limited, and withdrawn according to God’s purpose. Scripture does not teach a permanent, transferable blanket authority over all spiritual powers for every believer.
Third, “power” in Acts and the Gospels is not self-possessed authority, but authority exercised only as God wills. Stephen and Philip did signs because God worked through them, not because they held personal authority over the spiritual realm. Acts consistently says God did the works, not that individuals permanently possessed power in themselves. Even the apostles never acted independently of God’s will.
Fourth, John 3:34 does not say all believers receive the Spirit without measure. That verse speaks about Christ, not about believers. Jesus alone received the Spirit without measure. Scripture never applies that phrase to the Church or to individual believers.
Finally, Scripture never compares spiritual authority to a policeman’s badge. A policeman exercises authority because of an institutional office. In Scripture, spiritual authority is never self-assumed or generalized. It is granted, limited, and accountable. Even the apostles did not speak or act “as they pleased,” but only as they were commanded.
So the issue is not whether God can work powerfully through anyone. He can. The issue is claiming authority that Scripture reserves for specific callings. The Bible consistently teaches humility, submission, and dependence on God, not personal claims of spiritual dominion.
If we stay within what is written, these distinctions remain clear.

 

[vassal]

Tell me where the stone tablets are now. You are blind to the purpose of the law. I've tried to explain, but you refuse to accept it. You live in the shadows if you wish. I live in the light who is also my life.

The question of where the stone tablets are now misses the point Scripture itself makes. God never tied the authority of His covenant to the physical survival of stone, but to His own testimony and presence. The tablets were placed in the Ark not to be displayed forever on earth, but to show that God’s law stands before Him, not before men.
Scripture tells us that the Ark itself was not lost to history in God’s sight.
Revelation 11:19 (NKJV)
“Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.”
The Ark of the Covenant is seen in heaven, not erased, not replaced. And notice what surrounds it: thunder, lightning, and earthquake.
This is the same language used when God gave the commandments at Sinai.
Exodus 19:16–19 (NKJV)
“Then it came to pass on the third day, in the morning, that there were thunderings and lightnings, and a thick cloud on the mountain… and Mount Sinai was completely in smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire… and the whole mountain quaked greatly.”
The same God, the same signs, the same Holiness.
So the purpose of the law was never shadows versus light. The law reveals God’s holiness. The problem was never the law, but the human heart. That is exactly why God promised a New Covenant, not to remove His law, but to place it within.
God’s presence does not abolish His commandments. His presence makes obedience possible.
To live in the light is not to reject what God wrote with His own finger, but to have that same law written on the heart by His Spirit.

The Ark still stands before God.
The covenant still stands before God.
And the glory that shook Sinai is the same glory seen in Revelation.
That is Scripture.

 

[Gideon300]

There are a few important distinctions that Scripture itself makes which should not be blurred.
First, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not the same thing as delegated authority or office. All who belong to Christ receive the Spirit, but not all receive the same authority, role, or commission. Jesus Himself chose the Twelve and gave them specific authority that He did not give to everyone. He said to them, “As My Father hath sent Me, even so send I you” (John 20:21), and to them He spoke of judging the twelve tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:28). That authority is never given to the general body of believers.
Second, Luke 10:19 was spoken to a specific group on a specific mission, not as a universal promise of ongoing personal authority for all believers in every age. Even within the Gospels, Jesus did not give the same authority to every disciple at all times. Authority was given, limited, and withdrawn according to God’s purpose. Scripture does not teach a permanent, transferable blanket authority over all spiritual powers for every believer.
Third, “power” in Acts and the Gospels is not self-possessed authority, but authority exercised only as God wills. Stephen and Philip did signs because God worked through them, not because they held personal authority over the spiritual realm. Acts consistently says God did the works, not that individuals permanently possessed power in themselves. Even the apostles never acted independently of God’s will.
Fourth, John 3:34 does not say all believers receive the Spirit without measure. That verse speaks about Christ, not about believers. Jesus alone received the Spirit without measure. Scripture never applies that phrase to the Church or to individual believers.
Finally, Scripture never compares spiritual authority to a policeman’s badge. A policeman exercises authority because of an institutional office. In Scripture, spiritual authority is never self-assumed or generalized. It is granted, limited, and accountable. Even the apostles did not speak or act “as they pleased,” but only as they were commanded.
So the issue is not whether God can work powerfully through anyone. He can. The issue is claiming authority that Scripture reserves for specific callings. The Bible consistently teaches humility, submission, and dependence on God, not personal claims of spiritual dominion.
If we stay within what is written, these distinctions remain clear.

Feel free to live in the confines of your limited understanding of scripture. I'll stick with the glorious liberty of the sons of God. And no, I do not use my liberty as a licence to sin. I have some knowledge of my power and authority in Christ and I exercised that when the circumstances require it. Demons are real and need to be cast out. The Bible calls us Ambassadors for Christ. We represent Him on earth right now. He has given us the power and authority that we need to overcome Satan, sin, self and the world. You do not have that authority and power because you do not believe it. Sad for you. Someone else has to carry the load that God has for you. They will also receive the rewards that God had for you.

Jesus told the twelve to make disciples, not spectators who watch while others get involved. No one hands out prizes to spectators.

 

[Nedsk]

Comment:

To just say with one's mouth 'I believe' or 'I have faith' is nothing. any one can do that, even a five year old

James is saying one must prove their faith by the way they live.

Remember the old saying "put up or shut up"

James is saying, I can prove my trust, my faith in Jesus Christ by my life, I do what Christ tells me to do,

faith is Demonstrated, is proven by actions not words

thats one reason God allows us to have problems, how will we preform, He want to know?

Correct. Sola fide is nonsense.

 

[Nedsk]

That is not what James said. As it is, many people do good works and yet they are not Christians. Works save no one. People who constantly talk about works and the works they do, are not about following Jesus. Those people are all about themselves and boasting when the only thing we should boast about, is Jesus.

By the way, what part does the Holy Spirit play in your life?

What do you mean that is not what James said? That's word for word what he said. The Holy Spirit reminds me every day not to be self righteous sanctimonious loud mouth. The Holy Spirit also reminds me the God gave me a brain and the ability to read and to cautious of people who tell me the words I read don't mean what they say.

 

[Nedsk]

So James is right and Paul a heretic? You legalists are weird.

Where did I claim that? You sola fide those are bizarre. It's the same rodeo with you people every single time. This isn't an either or proposition it's a both/and proposition just like James says in verse 24 but you folks turn rabid at the mention of the word works. It's kinda funny

 

[Nedsk]

James is clear when taken in context.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

James is not using the term "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

Ah yes the famous "in context" argument. In other words ignore what it says and listen instead to your explanation of what it says and means. I can read thanks and you havent given me any reason to think you have the authoritative understanding if Scripture.

 

[mailmandan]

Ah yes the famous "in context" argument. In other words ignore what it says and listen instead to your explanation of what it says and means. I can read thanks and you havent given me any reason to think you have the authoritative understanding if Scripture.

So, you ignore context and refuse to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine?

 

[Nedsk]

So, you ignore context and refuse to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine?

"Properly harmonize" sounds like agrees with you. I see no disharmony but you do

 

[Solitude]

I do yes!

Dino246 doesn't believe.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Dino246 doesn't believe.

Good gosh, leave him alone already.