Romans 10:17, a courtroom haearing?

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So what? Salvation in Christ is the subject or Romans 10. It speaks of God as sending out the message. It speaks of people hearing the message. It speaks of some who reject the message and some who receive the message. And it speaks of Jesus saving everyone who responds favorably to the message.

Certainly, especially for the saved, God does not limit His messages to the subject of salvation. He is interested in more than that. When He provides a way of escape from temptation (1 Cor 10:13), for instance, or when He corrects us when we disobey (Heb 12), His message is plain and clear. We hear it and act on it by trusting what He communicates and doing accordingly or not. The general statement of Romans 10:12 applies to all the communications of God with man, including His specific communication to individuals concerning salvation.

yes, a divine message, the gospel message was in its infant stage.

And you still have no real concept of what faith even is. I would appreciate it if you would stop using my thread to further exploit the "believing in Gods word" false teaching. Faith is a personal surrender to Him, and a life inspired by such surrender. "believing" in Gods word will avail nothing.
 
And you still have no real concept of what faith even is.
I think I explained it quite well.
I would appreciate it if you would stop using my thread to further exploit the "believing in Gods word" false teaching.
I don't even know what you mean by that.
Faith is a personal surrender to Him, and a life inspired by such surrender.
Sorry, I forgot we had this conversation already. I do remember our conversation and that we failed to reach an agreement. But I forgot it was you that I was arguing with. Sorry.
"believing" in Gods word will avail nothing.
The object of one's faith is at issue. Faith in God has Him as the object, not the Bible. And the Bible testifies to this fact. For instance, it does not say, "Trust the Bible with all your heart." It says, "Trust in the LORD...

5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart,​
And lean not on your own understanding;​
6 In all your ways acknowledge Him,​
And He shall direct your paths. (Pr 3:5–6)​

You can say that this does not instruct us to trust God as He leads, guides, directs, corrects, and comforts us from the intimacy of our own hearts, but you would be wrong about that.
 
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I think I explained it quite well.I don't even know what you mean by that.Sorry, I forgot we had this conversation already. I do remember our conversation and that we failed to reach an agreement. But I forgot it was you that I was arguing with. Sorry.The object of one's faith is at issue. Faith in God has Him as the object, not the Bible. And the Bible testifies to this fact. For instance, it does not say, "Trust the Bible with all your heart." It says, "Trust in the LORD...

5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart,​
And lean not on your own understanding;​
6 In all your ways acknowledge Him,​
And He shall direct your paths. (Pr 3:5–6)​

You can say that this does not instruct us to trust God as He leads, guides, directs, corrects, and comforts us from the intimacy of our own hearts, but you would be wrong about that.

If you don't "START" the relationship with a personal surrender to Him and live a life inspired by such surrender, God's word is never yours to lead, guide, comfort, etc.

It's only after our surrendered life ( aka faith) is accepted , then Gods word cannot become a part of the surrendered life.
 
I think I explained it quite well.I don't even know what you mean by that.Sorry, I forgot we had this conversation already. I do remember our conversation and that we failed to reach an agreement. But I forgot it was you that I was arguing with. Sorry.The object of one's faith is at issue. Faith in God has Him as the object, not the Bible. And the Bible testifies to this fact. For instance, it does not say, "Trust the Bible with all your heart." It says, "Trust in the LORD...

5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart,​
And lean not on your own understanding;​
6 In all your ways acknowledge Him,​
And He shall direct your paths. (Pr 3:5–6)​

You can say that this does not instruct us to trust God as He leads, guides, directs, corrects, and comforts us from the intimacy of our own hearts, but you would be wrong about that.

You've said you don't agree with application of Faith being (pisteuo) in the Greek, "A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender?

that disagreement isn't with me, that's the exact definition of what saving faith is in the ones Greek dictionary.

I only know it's correct, because I've done it.
 
You've said you don't agree with application of Faith being (pisteuo) in the Greek, "A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender?

that disagreement isn't with me, that's the exact definition of what saving faith is in the ones Greek dictionary.

I only know it's correct, because I've done it.

I assume ones Greek dictionary is a typo and you meant Vines Greek dictionary

Faith
A. Verbs.​
1. pisteuo (πιστεύω, 4100), “to believe,” also “to be persuaded of,” and hence, “to place confidence in, to trust,” signifies, in this sense of the word, reliance upon, not mere credence. It is most frequent in the writings of the apostle John, especially the Gospel. He does not use the noun (see below). For the Lord’s first use of the verb, see 1:50. Of the writers of the Gospels, Matthew uses the verb ten times, Mark ten, Luke nine, John ninety-nine. In Acts 5:14 the present participle of the verb is translated “believers. See COMMIT, INTRUST, TRUST.​
2. peitho (πείθω, 3982), “to persuade,” in the middle and passive voices signifies “to suffer oneself to be persuaded,” e.g., Luke 16:31; Heb. 13:18; it is sometimes translated “believe” in the RV, but not in Acts 17:4, RV, “were persuaded,” and 27:11, “gave (more) heed”; in Acts 28:24, “believed. See AGREE, ASSURE, OBEY, PERSUADE, TRUST, YIELD.​
Note: For apisteo, the negative of No. 1, and apeitheo, the negative of No. 2, see DISBELIEVE, DISOBEDIENT.​
B. Noun.​
pistis (πίστις, 4102), “faith,” is translated “belief” in Rom. 10:17; 2 Thess. 2:13. Its chief significance is a conviction respecting God and His Word and the believer’s relationship to Him. See ASSURANCE, FAITH, FIDELITY.​
Note: In 1 Cor. 9:5 the word translated “believer” (RV), is adelphe, “a sister,” so 7:15; Rom. 16:1; Jas. 2:15, used, in the spiritual sense, of one connected by the tie of the Christian faith.​
Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words​
 
Faith - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words
Faith
[ 1,,G4102, pistis ]
primarily, firm persuasion," a conviction based upon hearing (akin to peitho, "to persuade"), is used in the NT always of "faith in God or Christ, or things spiritual."

The word is used of
(a) trust, e.g., Romans 3:25 [See Note
(4) below]; 1 Corinthians 2:5; 1 Corinthians 15:14, 1 Corinthians 15:17; 2 Corinthians 1:24; Galatians 3:23 [See Note
(5) below]; Philippians 1:25; Philippians 2:17; 1 Thessalonians 3:2; 2 Thessalonians 1:3; 2 Thessalonians 3:2;
(b) trust-worthiness, e.g., Matthew 23:23; Romans 3:3, RV, "the faithfulness of God;" Galatians 5:22 (RV, "faithfulness"); Titus 2:10, "fidelity;"
(c) by metonymy, what is believed, the contents of belief, the "faith," Acts 6:7; Acts 14:22; Galatians 1:23; Galatians 3:25 [contrast Galatians 3:23, under
(a)]; Galatians 6:10; Philippians 1:27; 1 Thessalonians 3:10; Jude 1:3, Jude 1:20 (and perhaps 2 Thessalonians 3:2);
(d) a ground for "faith," an assurance, Acts 17:31 (not as in AV, marg., "offered faith");
(e) a pledge of fidelity, plighted "faith," 1 Timothy 5:12.

The main elements in "faith" in its relation to the invisible God, as distinct from "faith" in man, are especially brought out in the use of this noun and the corresponding verb, pisteuo; they are

(1) a firm conviction, producing a full acknowledgement of God's revelation or truth, e.g., 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12;

(2) a personal surrender to Him, John 1:12;

(3) a conduct inspired by such surrender, 2 Corinthians 5:7. Prominence is given to one or other of these elements according to the context. All this stands in contrast to belief in its purely natural exercise, which consists of an opinion held in good "faith" without necessary reference to its proof. The object of Abraham's "faith" was not God's promise (that was the occasion of its exercise); his "faith" rested on God Himself, Romans 4:17, Romans 4:20-Romans 4:21. See ASSURANCE

really important to read the 1,2,3, towards the bottom.
 
(1) a firm conviction, producing a full acknowledgement of God's revelation or truth, e.g., 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12;

Look at what it's saying. "producing a full acknowledgement of Gods revelation of truth."
think about that for a second, now ask yourself, has a "firm conviction" produced a full acknowledgement of Gods revelation of truth?

2) A personal surrender to Him. Jn 1:12
thats our lives were talking about here. Not a part, not half , but all of it.

3) A conduct inspired by such surrender.
Romans 4:17, Romans 4:20-Romans 4:21. See ASSURANCE
this is us, in a continual state of surrender, making all the 100's of daily decisions that show God we really concider our lives to be His, not ours.

Is that what your Faith life looks like? if it's yes, I'll shut up. And we can become united in Him.
 
If you don't "START" the relationship with a personal surrender to Him and live a life inspired by such surrender, God's word is never yours to lead, guide, comfort, etc.

It's only after our surrendered life ( aka faith) is accepted , then Gods word cannot become a part of the surrendered life.
I assume you meant to say can instead of cannot.

Let's assume God tells me that something I believe to be true is actually false (this has happened many times). Is it incumbent upon me to change my mind and adopt His point of view on the subject? Or, am I justified in clinging to my false belief? Obviously, the former is correct and the latter is incorrect.

In order to change my mind, I must hear and understand His instructions, I must trust that He knows better tham me what is true and false, and even if I can't see or perceive a better understanding, I must accept His point of view and change my point of view. This kind of interaction with God requires faith because we can't see Him with our eyes or hear Him with our ears. Our confidence in God and in the direction He is leading us is our evidence that proves to us that the invisible is real. "By faith" is the way we walk with God. It's inerractive. He tells us what to do and we do it. It's not a good commitment that we follow through on. It is a way of life.
 
You've said you don't agree with application of Faith being (pisteuo) in the Greek, "A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender?

that disagreement isn't with me, that's the exact definition of what saving faith is in the ones Greek dictionary.

I only know it's correct, because I've done it.
Sometimes you argue that we are talking about pistis and not pisteuo and sometimes you argue the opposite. And you're right that I disagree with your approach. You may be correctly relaying what Vines believed or you may be misapplying it. I don't know. But the 3 points he made about pistis and pisteuo are not found in more authoritative works such as TDNT, Louw-Nida, and BDAG, from all of which I have posted excerpts.
 
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I assume you meant to say can instead of cannot.

Let's assume God tells me that something I believe to be true is actually false (this has happened many times). Is it incumbent upon me to change my mind and adopt His point of view on the subject? Or, am I justified in clinging to my false belief? Obviously, the former is correct and the latter is incorrect.

In order to change my mind, I must hear and understand His instructions, I must trust that He knows better tham me what is true and false, and even if I can't see or perceive a better understanding, I must accept His point of view and change my point of view. This kind of interaction with God requires faith because we can't see Him with our eyes or hear Him with our ears. Our confidence in God and in the direction He is leading us is our evidence that proves to us that the invisible is real. "By faith" is the way we walk with God. It's inerractive. He tells us what to do and we do it. It's not a good commitment that we follow through on. It is a way of life.

thanks for the correction.

No, your missing the essence of what "faith and faithing really is, and what it means.

Faith, (pistis) reliance upon Him, and Faithing (pisteuo) a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender, IS a surrendered life! your whole post supports the fact your looking for guidance in "your" life.

If your fulfilling pisteuo correctly with a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender, YOUR LIFE IS NOT YOURS ANYMORE! Understanding, instructions, your mind, your trust, what you perceive, your point of view, none of it is any of your business anymore! it's His business now!

Our busines is to keep faithing, keep surrendering ourselves to Him, all the time. When we have His spirit, His mind, all those other things are a mute point.
 
If your fulfilling pisteuo correctly with a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender, YOUR LIFE IS NOT YOURS ANYMORE! Understanding, instructions, your mind, your trust, what you perceive, your point of view, none of it is any of your business anymore! it's His business now!

Honestly , it sounds like all you've really done is dissociate from your self in your mind.
 
Sometimes you argue that we are talking about pistis and not pisteuo and sometimes you argue the opposite. And you're right that I disagree with your approach. You may be correctly relaying what Vines believed or you may be misapplying it. I don't know. But the 3 points he made about pistis and pisteuo are not found in more authoritative works such as TDNT, Louw-Nida, and BDAG, from all of which I have posted excerpts.


looks like you have a decision to make. When Rom. 8:9 is fulfilled, you won't have to wonder which ones right anymore.

As for my approach, if you have a better one , I'm all ears.
 
looks like you have a decision to make. When Rom. 8:9 is fulfilled, you won't have to wonder which ones right anymore.

As for my approach, if you have a better one , I'm all ears.

Yeah and all of your hands are covering all of your ears. You can't hear because you are convinced you see and the unwashed masses don't

Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth. John 9:41
 
How can we surrender to Him without heeding Him?
Why call ye me Lord Lord and do not the things that I say? Luke 6:46

It's paradoxical. We can't "heed" Him. We heed Him when we fulfil the precondition of faith and faithing. As the result of fulfilling that precondition, He imputes a part of Himself, and that part in us heeds Him.
 
thanks for the correction.

No, your missing the essence of what "faith and faithing really is, and what it means.

Faith, (pistis) reliance upon Him, and Faithing (pisteuo) a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender, IS a surrendered life! your whole post supports the fact your looking for guidance in "your" life.

If your fulfilling pisteuo correctly with a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender, YOUR LIFE IS NOT YOURS ANYMORE! Understanding, instructions, your mind, your trust, what you perceive, your point of view, none of it is any of your business anymore! it's His business now!

Our busines is to keep faithing, keep surrendering ourselves to Him, all the time. When we have His spirit, His mind, all those other things are a mute point.
Sounds the same as working hard to maintain one's salvation, which is the opposite of ceasing from one's works (Heb 4:10).
 
Sounds the same as working hard to maintain one's salvation, which is the opposite of ceasing from one's works (Heb 4:10).

There is work and effort involved in fulfilling the precondition, pisteuo (a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender).The mistranslated words believe, believer, and believing can't fix that.

Faith is:
90% courage, 5% tenacity, and 5% everything else. Our burden is light, but it's still a burden. Our yoke is easy, but it's still a yoke.
 
looks like you have a decision to make. When Rom. 8:9 is fulfilled, you won't have to wonder which ones right anymore.
This is a common tactic. Whenever I see something on the order of "Scripture says what I'm telling you it says, therefore if you disagree with me you don't believe the Scripture" then I know there is no need for further discussion.
As for my approach, if you have a better one , I'm all ears.
This is literally the opposite of reality. I have given you the better approach many times, and your ears remain closed.