Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[cv5]

Nope. My belief is that I was saved and then from it, believed. You state it in the reverse of that.
So, the question remains: since by your belief you saved yourself, what part did Christ play in it?

Your beliefs are an unbiblical fantasy.

Christ Jesus takes the initiative and graciously "calls". You either "come" or you do not.

Christ Jesus by His authority opens the "gate/door". You either "enter" or you do not.

Then the inevitable consequences predicated upon the will/desire of the intended audience.

This you fail to understand?

And YES, informed consent is mandatory beforehand.

Exo 19:8 - And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

 

[GWH]

Yes, we can exercise MFW;
we cannot not exercise MFW.

 

[Jordon]

do you realize that there were some believers who were not allowed to enter the promised land, Jordon? ... it was not just unbelievers who died in the wandering in the wilderness.

chief among the believers was Moses himself because of his disobedience in striking the rock ... however, God, in His great grace, allowed Moses to see the land before he died:

Deuteronomy 32:48-51

48 And the LORD spake unto Moses that selfsame day, saying,

49 Get thee up into this mountain Abarim, unto mount Nebo, which is in the land of Moab, that is over against Jericho; and behold the land of Canaan, which I give unto the children of Israel for a possession:

50 And die in the mount whither thou goest up, and be gathered unto thy people; as Aaron thy brother died in mount Hor, and was gathered unto his people:

51 Because ye trespassed against me among the children of Israel at the waters of Meribah-Kadesh, in the wilderness of Zin; because ye sanctified me not in the midst of the children of Israel.

Aaron did not enter because of the incident at Meribah (Num 20:24).

Miriam ... a prophetess ... died before entering the land (Num 20:1).

The 70 elders ... they were believers ... I do not believe all of them entered (not sure if any of them entered).





Did you know that the children of Israel crossed the Jordan River on dry ground to enter the promised land ...

Joshua 3:17 And the priests that bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD stood firm on dry ground in the midst of Jordan, and all the Israelites passed over on dry ground, until all the people were passed clean over Jordan.

.

I know all about the river Jordon but I'm still waiting for you to acknowledge that God changed the will of the men that entered the promised land

 

[Jordon]

He is describing what you do to me...

Billy Graham learned from my pastor.

no I don't

You look for trouble and when you get it you cry like a baby

 

[Jordon]

He is describing what you do to me...

Billy Graham learned from my pastor.

This was posted to make you see the truth,

 

[Jordon]

Your beliefs are an unbiblical fantasy.

Christ Jesus takes the initiative and graciously "calls". You either "come" or you do not.

Christ Jesus by His authority opens the "gate/door". You either "enter" or you do not.

Then the inevitable consequences predicated upon the will/desire of the intended audience.

This you fail to understand?

And YES, informed consent is mandatory beforehand.

Exo 19:8 - And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

your miss representing him, The father delivers people's to Christ.

Jesus grants access with his open doors or he doesn't.

Revalation 3:7-8


These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8 I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I know all about the river Jordon but I'm still waiting for you to acknowledge that God changed the will of the men that entered the promised land

The 40 years of wandering resulted from the rebellion of the people when they refused to enter the promised land because they did not believe the report of the two witnesses:

Numbers 14:28-34

28 Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the LORD, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:

29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,

30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.

31 But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised.

32 But as for you, your carcases, they shall fall in this wilderness.

33 And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness.

34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.


The 40-years of wandering was a time of testing and teaching the children of Israel ... the people learned to trust God to provide for them just as He had promised ... it was a time in which they transitioned from being in bondage in Egypt to being free to enter the land promised by God to Abraham.

We are to learn from their example ... we read of God's faithfulness in keeping His promises ... we learn of our own rebellion in the examples revealed in the rebellion of the people ... we learn to be patient and wait on God to fulfill that which He has promised as we sojourn in our "wanderings" in this lifetime ...

Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

How we respond to God leading us in our time on this earth determines if we will enter into His eternal promised land in new heaven/new earth.

Where do you want to spend eternity? ... do you want to enter into the city? ... or remain without the city?

Revelation 22:14-15

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

A person either believes the promises of God and receives His promised blessing or a person suppresses the truth in unrighteousness and receives the consequence of having rejected Him.


And for those who believe the promises of God ... those who are born again ... as we await that blessed promise ... we either grow and mature in Him ... or we remain spiritual infants being tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine.

.

 

[Jordon]

The 40 years of wandering resulted from the rebellion of the people when they refused to enter the promised land because they did not believe the report of the two witnesses:

Numbers 14:28-34

28 Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the LORD, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:

29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,

30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.

31 But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised.

32 But as for you, your carcases, they shall fall in this wilderness.

33 And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness.

34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.


The 40-years of wandering was a time of testing and teaching the children of Israel ... the people learned to trust God to provide for them just as He had promised ... it was a time in which they transitioned from being in bondage in Egypt to being free to enter the land promised by God to Abraham.

We are to learn from their example ... we read of God's faithfulness in keeping His promises ... we learn of our own rebellion in the examples revealed in the rebellion of the people ... we learn to be patient and wait on God to fulfill that which He has promised as we sojourn in our "wanderings" in this lifetime ...

Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

How we respond to God leading us in our time on this earth determines if we will enter into His eternal promised land in new heaven/new earth.

Where do you want to spend eternity? ... do you want to enter into the city? ... or remain without the city?

Revelation 22:14-15

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

A person either believes the promises of God and receives His promised blessing or a person suppresses the truth in unrighteousness and receives the consequence of having rejected Him.


And for those who believe the promises of God ... those who are born again ... as we await that blessed promise ... we either grow and mature in Him ... or we remain spiritual infants being tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine.

.

so this does this mean you do acknowledge God changed the will of the people who entered the promised land

 

[HeIsHere]

Why? because I tell the truth? You think those in the lake of fire will be "rightly giving" God any glory?

Another thing he says a lot >>>> "not being able to converse with you."

This usually occurs when their position is exposed as false.

 

[Rufus]

​

"For all who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God." ​

​

Romans 8:14​

When a believer is filled and walks in the Spirit he is beyond being a son of Abraham.

"For all who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God."



.​

Since you didn't answer my question and instead posted a text that is a non sequitar, I take your answer as a resounding "NO" to my question re Abraham. So...I have some really bad news for you: Since you're too good to be a "mere" son of Abraham, who is the spiritual father of all believers (the circumcision and uncircumcision alike), then you just admitted that you're an unbeliever in more ways than one. You must unwittingly confessed to not having Abrahamic-like faith.

And since it's beneath your dignity to be a son of Abraham, then this means you're not in any personal, covenant relationship with God, since the New Covenant fulfills the promises made to Abraham. Moreover, God never made any universal redemptive covenant with the Gentile world.

Lastly, since you're not in any covenant relationship with the Lord, this further means that you're not in Christ; for He is the embodiment of the eternal New Covenant which was only made with the children of Abraham.

Looks like this life will be your only reward unless God opens your eyes and ears. Wake up, O Sleeper, before Death swallows you whole!

 

[HeIsHere]

Your beliefs are an unbiblical fantasy.

Christ Jesus takes the initiative and graciously "calls". You either "come" or you do not.

Christ Jesus by His authority opens the "gate/door". You either "enter" or you do not.

Then the inevitable consequences predicated upon the will/desire of the intended audience.

This you fail to understand?

And YES, informed consent is mandatory beforehand.

Exo 19:8 - And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

Yes, unbiblical and superficial. That is why they are on auto-repeat and never exegete verses in context.

Not one of them has posted anything to prove "God made it so that mankind, from birth, is unable to respond positively to the Gospel (inability)" or "regeneration prior to faith."

There has not been a singular post from them, which even approaches a meticulous examination of their proof texts in context.
I have noticed how they scamper away when the request is made.

 

[Genez]

Nope. My belief is that I was saved and then from it, believed. You state it in the reverse of that.
So, the question remains: since by your belief you saved yourself, what part did Christ play in it?

You guys have been brainwashed by cruel pastors...
Or, reading the wrong books.

But, it appeals to you and your ilk.

Why? Because it suits your sin nature trend just fine.
It appeals to your disdain for your fellow man.
Just like Arminianism appeals to the bleeding heart liberal heart.

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. ​

Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great ​

number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3​

You enjoy finding yourself placed in a position for putting down others who always bothered you.
Doing so makes it seem legit with TULIP. So? You choose (free will) that teaching for yourself.

Don't want to continue hearing your side of the argument anymore.
It will all be sorted out with finality and eternal resolve when the Day comes.
Some will be shown winners. Some losers.

Grace and Truth....

 

[Rufus]

In John 17:9, Jesus prayed for the 11 apostles who were with Him just prior to His crucifixion.

John 17:6-9

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

vs 6 – refers to the 11 apostles remaining after Judas left. These were the men the Lord Jesus Christ specifically prayed for at the time ... just after supper ended and prior to giving Himself over to be crucified.





Rufus ... do you not recall what was submitted just last week in Post 32,858? I pointed out to you that these verses had been discussed back in August ...

Posted Dec 27, 2025 ... reneweddaybyday said:​

yes context counts ... from Post 8,713 submitted back in August ...​

He prayed that those who believe in Him would be one ... the Father in the Son ... the Son in the Father ... the believers one in us... that the world may know that Thou hast sent me .​

​

knowing does not equal believing ... it's only in believing that one is saved.​

​

An unbeliever reading this thread ... would he or she know that the believers who post in this thread are one in us ??? ... would the unbelieving reader know that Thou [God] hast sent Me [the Lord Jesus Christ] ??? ... I don't think so ... not the way some treat their fellow brothers and sisters ... feeding the flesh, but is a poor witness on those who engage in such behavior ...​

​

not much has changed concerning the way brothers and sisters in Christ treat fellow brothers and sisters in Christ ... just sayin'​

​

John 17:18-23 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.​

it is clear your claim that I "told [you] that Jesus prayed only for the 11" is in error. Inasmuch as you continuously remind us how "humble" you are, will you "explicitly and publicly admit" to your error ???





Rufus, I pointed out that the record in John 10 is completely separate from the record in John 17 ... and if you don't see that, perhaps you should pray to God that He would open your eyes to that fact.

repeating again for your edification ... and please note the comment concerning John 10:16 (bolded here but not bolded in original post submitted by me):

reneweddaybyday said:​

because the point taught by Jesus to the pharisees in John 10 was that they (the scribes and pharisees) were the thieves and robbers spoken of in John 10:1, 8 ... the stranger spoken of in John 10:5 ... the hireling/wolf spoken of in John 10:12 ...​

​

And I do understand the truth of John 10:16 ... it's just that all verses referenced in your post were from John 17 (6 verses) ... except the two references to John 10. If your point can be made from John 17, why switch from John 17 to John 10? ... two completely separate events ... ​

​

and John 17 is much more substantive in that Jesus knew His time was short ... He was praying in the presence of His apostles ... those who were believers ... whereas in John 10, Jesus was speaking to pharisees.​

you, by your "mighty and powerful "freewill" don't want to" read Scripture just as it is laid out by the Author.

you prefer to conflate what is written "here" with what is written "there" ... with no thought or consideration paid to what the Author intended ... then refer to your re-writing of Scripture as "harmonizing" ... and all the while you berate those who prefer to read and understand Scripture just as it is written by the Author ... smh


2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

.

No, I don't recall what you posted way back in August thousands of post ago since this topic was broached again a lot more recently. And in that more recent exchange you clearly said that Jesus prayed only for the 11.

Here is how you responded in your 33,298 to a comment I made"

Rufus said:


Thirdly, this explains why Jesus didn't pray for the world in Jn 17:9.

You replied in 33,298:
"The Lord Jesus Christ prayed for those who were with Him in the garden just before He was crucified ... that would be the 11 apostles after Judas left."

There is an age old Maxim that basically says: Liars need good memories! Better check yourself into a mental rehab center ASAP! Or if you didn't intentionally lie, then you are one very confused person, which bad theology also tends to do.

Jesus very clearly prayed for two groups of people in Jn 17. He prayed for the 11 and for those who would believe their gospel message:

John 17:20
20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,
NIV

So, what are you going to do with this verse: CONFLATE the personal pronouns "them" and "those" to make them into one group?

I see you're still whining over my appeal to Jn 10! So what Jesus was addressing the Pharisees!? I appealed to the content of Jesus' words to them which forms his Good Shepherd Discourse. I pointed out in my 33,666 that there are at least seven (7) parallels that exist between the two chapters. You are obviously blinded by own unbiblical presuppositions and cannot see these parallels.

 

[Genez]

Since you didn't answer my question and instead posted a text that is a non sequitar, I take your answer as a resounding "NO" to my question re Abraham. So...I have some really bad news for you: Since you're too good to be a "mere" son of Abraham, who is the spiritual father of all believers (the circumcision and uncircumcision alike), then you just admitted that you're an unbeliever in more ways than one. You must unwittingly confessed to not having Abrahamic-like faith.

And since it's beneath your dignity to be a son of Abraham, then this means you're not in any personal, covenant relationship with God, since the New Covenant fulfills the promises made to Abraham. Moreover, God never made any universal redemptive covenant with the Gentile world.

Lastly, since you're not in any covenant relationship with the Lord, this further means that you're not in Christ; for He is the embodiment of the eternal New Covenant which was only made with the children of Abraham.

Looks like this life will be your only reward unless God opens your eyes and ears. Wake up, O Sleeper, before Death swallows you whole!

Rufus.... why is that always the way you frame your responses?

Are you that hard to understand?

Or are you too dull to see a point that was made?
Are only are after your tunnel vision response comments?

You are consistently being misunderstood for good reason.

 

[Genez]

This was posted to make you see the truth,

Hello, Jordon.

I read your post.

Have a nice Day.

 

[HeIsHere]

You guys have been brainwashed by cruel pastors...
Or, reading the wrong books.

But, it appeals to you and your ilk.

Why? Because it suits your sin nature trend just fine.
It appeals to your disdain for your fellow man.
Just like Arminianism appeals to the bleeding heart liberal heart.

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. ​

Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great ​

number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3​

You enjoy finding yourself placed in a position for putting down others who always bothered you.
Doing so makes it seem legit with TULIP. So? You choose (free will) that teaching for yourself.

Don't want to continue hearing your side of the argument anymore.
It will all be sorted out with finality and eternal resolve when the Day comes.
Some will be shown winners. Some losers.

Grace and Truth....

Interesting, @Cameron143 asserts that regeneration is not salvation/justified/sanctified, I think the thought leaders in this sect

realized that stating a person was "saved" before faith was a problem, so they now insist the regeneration is solely an "activation" like a switch being turned on....

... seems like not everyone in the sect received the memo.

 

[Genez]

Yes, unbiblical and superficial. That is why they are on auto-repeat and never exegete verses in context.

Not one of them has posted anything to prove "God made it so that mankind, from birth, is unable to respond positively to the Gospel (inability)" or "regeneration prior to faith."

There has not been a singular post from them, which even approaches a meticulous examination of their proof texts in context.
I have noticed how they scamper away when the request is made.

They are like back-woods, theological hillbillies, that hate strangers whom they see in their neck of the woods.

It is a mentality we are dealing with.
They are attracted to their teachings that suit it just fine.

Enuf said....

 

[Genez]

Interesting, @Cameron143 asserts that regeneration is not salvation/justified/sanctified, I think the thought leaders in this sect

realized that stating a person was "saved" before faith was a problem, so they now insist the regeneration is solely an "activation" like a switch being turned on....

... seems like not everyone in the sect received the memo.

It is like someone left the asylum gate open again?
We are dealing with insanity of a special spiritual kind.

Just bear with it.
They are not going to change your thinking anymore than you are going to change theirs.

God allows for it for the testing of truly growing believers.
That is why some types are attracted to Christian forums.

God wants it this way.

 

[Jordon]

Hello, Jordon.

I read your post.

Have a nice Day.

Awe that was a good sermon, Shame you can't comment on the sermon without being contentious yet again.

 

[Rufus]

Rufus.... why is that always the way you frame your responses?

Are you that hard to understand?

Or are you too dull to see a point that was made?
Are only are after your tunnel vision response comments?

You are consistently being misunderstood for good reason.

Hey...blame your own false gospel to which your subscribe and revel in! You obviously admitted that you are not a son of Abraham, which makes you an infidel, since you cannot possibly be in a personal, covenant relationship with the Lord, since the New Covenant was made only with the sons and daughters of Abraham. Therefore, your own words condemn you!

The really, really sad part about this is that your self-deceitfulness runs so deep through you that you cannot detect it. Your self-induced, self-deception has totally blinded you and has made you powerless to see it. You cannot even understand yourself!