Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Dino246]

oh behave yourself your being hypocritical again,

You've thrown more personal remarks at me than a gay person fighting for gay rights,

Where's your back bone now your so fond of, well its no where because you obviously don't have enough courage to put these ignoramus people in there place, and only those rightly calling there disrespect out,

The word is "their". I haven't seen a need to call out others for their continual disrespect because I have not observed it. I'm not under any obligation to criticize equally. I address YOU because YOU have continually thrown disrespectful comments. Instead of owning YOUR pattern, you deflect to the alleged sins of others. That's not a sound defense in any context.

 

[Jordon]

The word is "their". I haven't seen a need to call out others for their continual disrespect because I have not observed it. I'm not under any obligation to criticize equally. I address YOU because YOU have continually thrown disrespectful comments. Instead of owning YOUR pattern, you deflect to the alleged sins of others. That's not a sound defense in any context.

No you've only seen my disrespect, of calling disrespect out, but somehow your calling out is more deserving ?

Nar you've just decided to think I'm being to harsh, again only showing your ignorance for correction, the best part is I've put up with there abuse for months

 

[cv5]

Just thought that it would be good to post this.....

Luk 2:10 - And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

Luk 2:11 - For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

[Luk 2:30-31 NKJV]
30 For my eyes have seen Your salvation
31 Which You have prepared before the face of all peoples,

 

[Cameron143]

How do you think it becomes ours?

It doesn't. Our worth is tied to our relationship with Christ. All of the worth comes from His part in the relationship.

 

[lrs68]

Yes, the 11 knew that Jesus was the Sent One. But that doesn't change the fact that He prayed for THEM and for all THOSE who would believe on him through their preaching. He just didn't pray for the 11 (v. 20). God didn't give just the 11 to Him. This is why all the ones given to Christ by the Father are bookended by vv. 2 and 24. Verse 24 doesn't say, I want "them", rather I want "THOSE you have given me"...-- and the the "those" are the ones who will come to faith in the future through the preaching of "them".

You lame, willfully blinded, wanna-be exegetes truly have a difficult time with pronouns, don't you?

This Verse was about right then and there and only reason you're now calling me names because you got caught again spreading false doctrine.

 

[sawdust]

It doesn't. Our worth is tied to our relationship with Christ. All of the worth comes from His part in the relationship.

Then how do we reach the full stature of Christ? What happens when we are taken out from Christ to be revealed for who and what we truly are? And why is God evaluating us if there is nothing of us to evaluate?

 

[Cameron143]

What part of "exploiting grace" did you not hear?

@Genez has made it known in umpteen posts that grace is God's working policy and that we receive nothing apart from grace.

You give the impression we have absolutely no part to play in our growth, that it all just happens automatically. Even physical growth requires something of us on our part, we have to eat what is presented.

He says what you say, but then in practice he claims something else. For example, if it is true that we can do nothing apart from Christ, our doing has no merit. It is Christ in us. If it is God who is at work in us willing and doing of His good pleasure, then how do improve our worth? Isn't it God? If we are being conformed to the image of God, who then gets the glory?

Just like us, it is God who formed Job into who He was. His worth was tied to God's worth, and nothing apart from that relationship. We may forestall the work of God in us, but all the increase comes as grace and dependent upon God. This is the only way it can be if God doesn't share His glory with another.

 

[Dino246]

the best part is I've put up with there abuse for months

Golf clap.

 

[Genez]

Once again completely off topic. It's getting boring how you do that so often.

Still waiting for you to explain in detail how your body makes a decision.

He's a kiddy, mentally....

 

[Cameron143]

Then how do we reach the full stature of Christ? What happens when we are taken out from Christ to be revealed for who and what we truly are? And why is God evaluating us if there is nothing of us to evaluate?

You believe a time will come when you are not in Christ?

 

[Genez]

He says what you say, but then in practice he claims something else. For example, if it is true that we can do nothing apart from Christ, our doing has no merit.

You know how many believers walk in their flesh ... AND... do so, in the name of Christ?

To find one who does walk in the Spirit and Truth sets him/her apart from people like yourself.

Your false doctrine could not have come from Christ.

 

[Cameron143]

You know how many believers walk in their flesh ... AND... do so, in the name of Christ?

To find one who does walk in the Spirit and Truth sets him/her apart from people like yourself.

Your false doctrine could not have come from Christ.

I know that you think far more highly of yourself than you ought.

 

[rogerg]

This Verse was about right then and there and only reason you're now calling me names because you got caught again spreading false doctrine.

Wrong!
[Jhn 17:20 KJV] 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Conflate, conflate, conflate. Must be your Top Word of the Month?

you should learn the meaning ... and why it is important to comprehend what the Author of Scripture wants you to know ... just as He has laid it out. There's a reason God tells us His Word reveals the Way to Him ... step by step ... no shortcuts.

I didn't conflate anything.

sure you did ... and more than once ... you do it all the time, only you refer to your conflating as "harmonizing" ...

Rufus said:​

Thirdly, this explains why Jesus didn't pray for the world in Jn 17:9.

Fourthly, it also explains why Jesus prayed for both flocks of his Father's sheep, for He laid down his life for them (Jn 10:11, 14-16).​

​

Rufus said:​

Fifthly, Jesus, not being of this world (Jn 17:16), does not know the ungodly world -- only his sheep (Jn 10:14).​

When you read a book, do you read straight through from page 1 to page end? ... or do you read a book in the same manner you read Scripture? ...

with Scripture, do you read a verse here ... a verse there ... no straight reading through as the Author of Scripture intended His Word to be read?

with a book, do you read a chapter here ... a chapter there ... no straight reading through as the author intended the book to be read?

Do you treat books written by men with more respect than you do the Word which was Authored by God?

But now that you finally acknowledge that Jesus did in fact pray for TWO (2) groups of people in Jn 17, why do you still marvel that I cited Jesus' Good Shepherd Discourse in Jn 10 to support my argument?

I don't "marvel" ... it really does not surprise me that you conflate what is written in John 10 with what is written in John 17.

In fact, Jesus' prayer was clearly alluding to the second flock he talked about in Jn 10!

nope ... Jesus' prayer was that

John 17:20-23

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Lots of folks who are not born again believe Jesus walked the earth ... that He was a man of God ... a prophet ... a great teacher ... but that does result in one being born again.

Belief in the gospel of Christ, which is the power of God unto salvation results in one being born again. If a person suppresses the truth in unrighteousness when the gospel is revealed to him or her, he or she will suffer the consequence of having rejected the truth.

So how could you see that Jn 10 was totally irrelevant to Jn 17?

because the point taught by Jesus to the pharisees in John 10 was that they (the scribes and pharisees) were the thieves and robbers spoken of in John 10:1, 8 ... the stranger spoken of in John 10:5 ... the hireling/wolf spoken of in John 10:12 ...

And I do understand the truth of John 10:16 ... it's just that all verses referenced in your post were from John 17 (6 verses) ... except the two references to John 10. If your point can be made from John 17, why switch from John 17 to John 10? ... two completely separate events ...

and John 17 is much more substantive in that Jesus knew His time was short ... He was praying in the presence of His apostles ... those who were believers ... whereas in John 10, Jesus was speaking to pharisees.

How can you not see that Jesus prayed for the Gentile Sheep in Jn 17:20-21?

Jesus prayed that the world would believe God had sent Him through the witness of born again believers who were/are one with the Father and the Son.

And I get that your understanding of the word "world" is not the same as my understanding of the word "world".

But the point Jesus was making was that born again believers are to be a witness to the world ... and according to Ephesians 3:10, the one body of the Lord Jesus Christ is to exhibit the manifold wisdom of God unto principalities and powers in the heavenlies ...

Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God

Do you think this thread is living up to the intent revealed in Ephesians 3:10 Rufus? ... how about the more mundane "world" of John 17?

Are you so ignorant of the the scriptures that you don't know that God is the God of the Jews and Gentiles and that He is gathering both of them to be ONE flock united in Christ (Rom 10:12; Eph 3:6, etc.)?

really Rufus? ... smh ... I am not so ignorant in that I know you believe I am ignorant of the Scriptures ...

And to whom was the Great Commission originally commanded if not to the Jews? And to whom were the Jews supposed to evangelize in keeping with Christ's charge if not the Gentiles?

So...the bottom line is this: Jesus prayed for both flocks of His Father's elect sheep in Jn 17! He did not pray for the non-elect. He prayed specifically and explicitly for all the Father had given to Him in eternity (Jn 17:2, 24).

Jesus prayed for His apostles ...

John 17:8-9 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.


Jesus prayed for those who would believe through the word taught by the apostles (this is ongoing even to this day) ...

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word


Jesus prayed for the world ...

John 17:20-21 ... 23

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

...

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

So, tell me, Ms. RDBD: As a professing believer in Christ, do you consider yourself to be a daughter of Abraham?

I am a child of God ... born again of Holy Spirit ... God in Christ ... Christ in Me ...

John 17:20-21 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

and don't bother redirecting me to Gal 3 ... I am fully aware of what is written there ... contrary to your insistence that I am "ignorant" ...

.

 

[Genez]

A believer who loved the wages of his wickedness?

Balaam was a believer!

Yes.... even a total jack_ss can be a believer.
He can be pompous and arrogant.
Like some we know here.

 

[lrs68]

Wrong!
[Jhn 17:20 KJV] 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

My Verse comes 5 Verses after yours and it's 100% about the Disciples!

 

[Jordon]

Golf clap.

why is all this just a big joke to you.

Golf clap.

well you carry on supporting ignorance then, and doing satans work of supporting hatred in this thread.

 

[Jordon]

He's a kiddy, mentally....

Nar your just a person who gets his kicks from belittling people

 

[rogerg]

My Verse comes 5 Verses after yours and it's 100% about the Disciples!

Jesus's prayer occurred then, but it pertained to all that the Father would ever give to Him - everyone who would ever come to belief in Him. It was one complete prayer from beginning to end - not different parts - one part for group and another part for the others. The Father sends to Jesus everyone He has chosen to save, and from that, they believe in Jesus. It was all of them who Jesus prayed for

 

[sawdust]

You believe a time will come when you are not in Christ?

At present my life is hid in Christ ergo, if it's hidden, it awaits to be revealed.

Romans 8:19
For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.

Col.3:2-4
3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

Note: appear with Him, not in Him.