Acts 2:38 Comparison: Evangelical vs. Oneness / Baptismal-Regeneration View

[Ouch]

You're proving my point for me. You keep treating Acts as the doctrinal foundation & Paul as commentary. But the Bible shows tremendous church growth through Paul’s ministry & not Luke’s narration.

Paul absolutely WAS GIVEN a distinct gospel & revelation:

My gospel (Rom 2:16; 16:25). Not from man but by direct revelation from Jesus Christ (Gal 1:11–12)

The dispensation of grace given to ME for YOU Gentiles (Eph 3:2)

I laid the foundation as a wise master builder (1 Cor 3:10).

You can’t erase those verses just because they contradict your formula.

As for Acts 19, Paul's ONLY recorded instruction is "believe on Christ Jesus" (v.4).

Verse 5 is LUKE narrating what they did, not Paul giving a command or formula.

And the Spirit comes by laying on of hands (v.6), not water.

Paul the master builder, chosen by Jesus Himself (Acts 9:15; 26:16–17) expects the Spirit at belief: Did you receive the Spirit when you believed? (Acts 19:2).

Paul's epistles repeatedly teach FAITH Justifies. Not a water + formula = Spirit indwelling.

You're reversing the biblical hierarchy. Doctrine comes from the apostles' teaching, not Luke’s narration. Acts describes events; Paul defines doctrine.

Treating Acts as the foundation & Paul as commentary is the exact opposite of how the New Testament is structured.

So after all of HIS word I shared with you proving to you without ANY DOUBT Paul is speaking to churchs not the unsaved you still can't see.

I tried, I can see your a concrete wall.

I see others are trying also.

I will always pray to the owes who have eyes and can not see.

I started my questions with you,

Are we born in sin?
Will sin enter Heaven?
It so and if not how do we get rid of them?

You still have no answered and your going down a dark road but we all have choice to make.

Best of luck I'm out, I've done my job as JESUS follower, dusting my feet.

Dark road warning,

Matthew, 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Ps your not follow Paul down the dark path, your going down it by yourself along with those you listen to.

 

[Ouch]

They all taught the same gospel and baptized with the same baptism. That is biblical facts as well you are just trying to create loop hole where there aren't any. There is only one gospel of Christ and as Paul said Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

I'm really thinking we all just need to pray around the flyinydove guy for 7 days, then blow horns and shout.

Can't knock down the wall with out JESUS.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

"Same gospel" does NOT mean "same administration"

Yes it does. It means same everything. The partition wall was removed a long time ago.

 

[FlyingDove]

So after all of HIS word I shared with you proving to you without ANY DOUBT Paul is speaking to churchs not the unsaved you still can't see.

I tried, I can see your a concrete wall.

I see others are trying also.

I will always pray to the owes who have eyes and can not see.

I started my questions with you,

Are we born in sin?
Will sin enter Heaven?
It so and if not how do we get rid of them?

You still have no answered and your going down a dark road but we all have choice to make.

Best of luck I'm out, I've done my job as JESUS follower, dusting my feet.

Dark road warning,

Matthew, 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Ps your not follow Paul down the dark path, your going down it by yourself along with those you listen to.

You constantly demand answers to question unrelated to the OP. And you can't address a single point I raised.

Not Luke narrating vs. Paul commanding, Not Paul’s Christ given revelation, Not the dispensation Christ given to him, Not the foundation he laid, Not the Spirit coming at belief, Not the difference between narrative description & apostolic doctrine.

Instead of Scripture, you shifted to emotional accusations, warnings & personal judgments. That’s not exegesis.

As for your three questions:

Are we born in sin? Yes. In sin did my mother conceive me (Ps 51:5). Paul says "by one man’' sin many were made sinners (Rom 5:19).

Will sin enter Heaven? No. Nothing unclean shall enter (Rev 21:27).

How do we get rid of sin? Paul' epistles answer plainly: We are justified by faith apart from works (Rom 3:28). Having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13). Not by water. Not by formulas. Not by rituals. By FAITH ALONE!

You keep quoting Acts as if Luke's narrative is salvation's doctrinal foundation. But doctrine comes from the apostles' teaching. Especially the one Christ appointed as the apostle to the Gentiles (Acts 9:15; Gal 2:7–9).

Paul didn’t preach your water‑formula system. He preached Christ crucified, risen & received by faith.

As far as shaking the dust off. Dusting your feet is no substitute for rightly dividing the Word. It just shows you ran out of argument & switched to emotion. I'm sticking with the text.

 

[FlyingDove]

Yes it does. It means same everything. The partition wall was removed a long time ago.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words: Dispensation - Greek = oikonomia, Noun Feminine, Strong's #3622)

primarily signifies "the management of a household or of household affairs" (oikos, "a house," nomos, "a law"); then the management or administration of the property of others, and so "a stewardship. In the Epistles of Paul, who applies it:

(a) to the responsibility entrusted to him of preaching the Gospel, 1 Corinthians 9:17 (RV, "stewardship," AV, "dispensation");

(b) to the stewardship commited to him "to fulfill the Word of God," the fulfillment being the unfolding of the completion of the Divinely arranged and imparted cycle of truths which are consummated in the truth relating to the Church as the Body of Christ, Col 1:25 (RV and AV, "dispensation"); so in Ephesians 3:2, of the grace of God given him as a stewardship ("dispensation") in regard to the same "mystery;"

(c) in Ephesians 1:10 ; 3:9 , it is used of the arrangement or administration by God, by which in "the fullness of the times" (or seasons) God will sum up all things in the heavens and on earth in Christ.

(NOTE: A "dispensation" is an arrangement, a mode of dealing with or administration/stewardship/minister of affairs via times & seasons)

Find the 4 verses from Vines Dictionary definition of Dispensation above:

1 Cor 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
(NOTE: Paul says: The stewardship/dispensation/management of the gospel, of the grace of God (see Acts 20:24) was given/committed to HIM)

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
(NOTE: Paul was chosen/made to be a minister, to manage the dispensing of the gospel, of the grace of God. Paul say's, the word of God is given to me/HIM, to share with us)

Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
(NOTE: The management/dispensation/stewardship of the gospel, of the grace of God (See Acts 20:24) was given to Paul, to give, to us)

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him
(NOTE: The dispensation/arrangement or administration by God, by which in "the fullness of the times" (or seasons) God will sum up all things, that are in Christ)

BTW: The partition wall was in full force during the Acts Pentecost.

Eph 2:14 middle wall of partition

Eph 2:
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
(MY COMMENT: The Temple area had 4 courts: The Court of the Gentiles, everyone was allowed here. The Court of the Women, other Israelites were allowed there but, women weren't allowed beyond. The Court of Israel, men 20yrs & up only. The Court of the Priests, Priests only)

The middle WALL of PARTITION Paul is referring to was a wall of stone balusters. That separated/divided the outer temple Courtyard of the Gentiles (considered ungodly/impure) from the rest of the temple. Warnings were posted in Latin & Greek. Any foreign uncircumcised person caught crossing into another courtyard was punishable by death. The outer courtyard was where Jesus rebuked the money changers (Matt 21:13).

The Court of the Women contained poor boxes. This was where the poor widow offered the 2 mites (Lk 21:1–4).

Only ceremonially clean Jewish men (20ys & older) could enter the Court of Israel. It was their God given sacrificial system that allowed them access into this sanctuary.

Only Levitical priests had access to the Court of Priests where the altar was (2 Chron 23:6).

This stone baluster/middle wall of partition was a picture of the spiritual barrier, which due to sin, denies man’s access into God’s presence

THIS IS 6-7 YEARS AFTER Acts 2 PENTECOST
Acts 10:28 Peter said unto them, Ye know how that it is an ""unlawful"" thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean
(NOTE: Peter tells Cornelius a gentile. IT'S UNLAWFUL for a Jew to keep company with a gentile)

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words: Dispensation - Greek = oikonomia, Noun Feminine, Strong's #3622)

primarily signifies "the management of a household or of household affairs" (oikos, "a house," nomos, "a law"); then the management or administration of the property of others, and so "a stewardship. In the Epistles of Paul, who applies it:

(a) to the responsibility entrusted to him of preaching the Gospel, 1 Corinthians 9:17 (RV, "stewardship," AV, "dispensation");

(b) to the stewardship commited to him "to fulfill the Word of God," the fulfillment being the unfolding of the completion of the Divinely arranged and imparted cycle of truths which are consummated in the truth relating to the Church as the Body of Christ, Col 1:25 (RV and AV, "dispensation"); so in Ephesians 3:2, of the grace of God given him as a stewardship ("dispensation") in regard to the same "mystery;"

(c) in Ephesians 1:10 ; 3:9 , it is used of the arrangement or administration by God, by which in "the fullness of the times" (or seasons) God will sum up all things in the heavens and on earth in Christ.

(NOTE: A "dispensation" is an arrangement, a mode of dealing with or administration/stewardship/minister of affairs via times & seasons)

Find the 4 verses from Vines Dictionary definition of Dispensation above:

1 Cor 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
(NOTE: Paul says: The stewardship/dispensation/management of the gospel, of the grace of God (see Acts 20:24) was given/committed to HIM)

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
(NOTE: Paul was chosen/made to be a minister, to manage the dispensing of the gospel, of the grace of God. Paul say's, the word of God is given to me/HIM, to share with us)

Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
(NOTE: The management/dispensation/stewardship of the gospel, of the grace of God (See Acts 20:24) was given to Paul, to give, to us)

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him
(NOTE: The dispensation/arrangement or administration by God, by which in "the fullness of the times" (or seasons) God will sum up all things, that are in Christ)

BTW: The partition wall was in full force during the Acts Pentecost.

Eph 2:14 middle wall of partition

Eph 2:
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
(MY COMMENT: The Temple area had 4 courts: The Court of the Gentiles, everyone was allowed here. The Court of the Women, other Israelites were allowed there but, women weren't allowed beyond. The Court of Israel, men 20yrs & up only. The Court of the Priests, Priests only)

The middle WALL of PARTITION Paul is referring to was a wall of stone balusters. That separated/divided the outer temple Courtyard of the Gentiles (considered ungodly/impure) from the rest of the temple. Warnings were posted in Latin & Greek. Any foreign uncircumcised person caught crossing into another courtyard was punishable by death. The outer courtyard was where Jesus rebuked the money changers (Matt 21:13).

The Court of the Women contained poor boxes. This was where the poor widow offered the 2 mites (Lk 21:1–4).

Only ceremonially clean Jewish men (20ys & older) could enter the Court of Israel. It was their God given sacrificial system that allowed them access into this sanctuary.

Only Levitical priests had access to the Court of Priests where the altar was (2 Chron 23:6).

This stone baluster/middle wall of partition was a picture of the spiritual barrier, which due to sin, denies man’s access into God’s presence

THIS IS 6-7 YEARS AFTER Acts 2 PENTECOST
Acts 10:28 Peter said unto them, Ye know how that it is an ""unlawful"" thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean
(NOTE: Peter tells Cornelius a gentile. IT'S UNLAWFUL for a Jew to keep company with a gentile)

Your posts are much too tedious and long to try to have an edifying conversation. You're simply trying to justify your errant beliefs with pre-prepared walls of text

 

[FlyingDove]

Your posts are much too tedious and long to try to have an edifying conversation. You're simply trying to justify your errant beliefs with pre-prepared walls of text

LOL, I wrote: "Same gospel" does NOT mean "same administration"

You reply: Yes it does. It means same everything. Sorry, the scripture' I shared disagree with your assertion.

Your reply claimed : The partition wall was removed a long time ago.

The center piece of this threads discussion revolves around Luke's Acts narrative.

I pointed out your unrelated partition wall statement was not applicable during the discussions time frame.

It isn't until after the Temples destruction. Your partition wall narrative becomes relevant. Sorry the scripture I posted was hard for you to digest.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Your reply claimed : The partition wall was removed a long time ago.
The center piece of this threads discussion revolves around Luke's Acts narrative.
I pointed out your unrelated partition wall statement was not applicable during the discussions time frame.
It isn't until after the Temples destruction. Your partition wall narrative becomes relevant. Sorry the scripture I posted was hard for you to digest.

This is nonsense. The wall was removed at the cross.

For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: Ephesians 2:14-16​

 

[FlyingDove]

This is nonsense. The wall was removed at the cross.

For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: Ephesians 2:14-16​

That verse is written 30 years after Acts 2 Pentecost. Again not applicable to the discussion time frame. You're the one posting nonsense.

 

[Biilybob65]

You keep repeating the phrase "same gospel = same response," but that’s your equation, not Scripture's.

The Bible never says "“same gospel = same formula." It says same gospel, different stewardship, different audience & different revelation. That's what scripture records Paul teaching.

I'll address your points 1 by 1.

You quoted 1 Cor 1:13–16 as if it supports your view, but you skipped the part that destroys your argument: Christ sent me NOT to baptize, but to preach the gospel. (1 Cor 1:17). If water most essential part of salvation/AS USE CLAIM. Paul could never say that.

Paul DID baptize a few. But that proves nothing about a formula. Paul baptizing a handful of people does NOT mean: He preached YOUR obsession water baptism formula as part of the gospel & no place in scripture cites that he did. He
NEVER preached water as the means of receiving the Spirit NEVER! He does say: Christ did NOT send me to baptize & I thank God I baptized none of you.

You keep claiming Paul baptized the Ephesians in Acts 19. But the text never says that. In Acts 19:4 Paul’s ONLY recorded instruction: Was that they should BELIEVE on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. Acts 19:6 Than the Spirit comes by laying on of hands, not water. This isn't your salvation holy grail formula, Peter' preached in Acts 2

He that believes is baptized will be saved” — you’re misusing it
You quoted Mark 16:16, Jesus say's He that believeth (FAITH 1st NOT your salvation holy grail formula order, Peter' preached in Acts 2) & you skipped the second half: Jesus said; He that is not baptized will be condemned. Jesus ties condemnation to UNBELIEF & NOT lack of water baptism.

"Same gospel" does NOT mean "same administration" Same gospel? Yes. Same stewardship? No. Same audience? No. Same revelation? No. Same commission? No. Same baptismal emphasis? No. Paul says:
Given to ME for YOU Gentiles. To whom I NOW send you. "MY gospel." "I laid the foundation." "I received my administration/stewardship/commission, NOT from man but by direct revelation of Jesus Christ.

Peter confirms Paul's administration/stewardship/commission: Peter say's Paul's writings contain wisdom given to him. People twist Paul's writings to their destruction. If Peter & Paul preached the same formula, Peter would not warn people about misunderstanding Paul.

Your entire argument ASSUMESS what you're trying to prove. You keep saying: Paul preached Acts 2:38 because Peter preached Acts 2:38. But Paul says:
Christ did NOT send me to baptize. You received the Spirit by hearing of faith. I thank God I baptized none of you. "One baptism" = Spirit baptism (1 Cor 12:13). If Peter & Paul preached the same message. Please advise where Peter say's. What Paul just said. The two administration/stewardship/commission done line up in scripture.

Finally, you closed with this:

"""The baptism in Christ name is as much part of the grace as the faith as Jesus said he that believes and is baptized will be saved. saving faith is active not hearing only but doing the gospel is to be obeyed."""

SAVED By GRACE = unearned favor [baptism in Christ name has nothing to do with God's GIFT of GRACE] thru FAITH Salvation is given by Christ' GIFT of the Holy Spirit [NO H2O REQUIRED]. And no surprise you just added another works requirement OBEY.

Genuine faith will result in good works.

Rom 1:5 "Through him we received grace" & apostleship "to call all the Gentiles to the obedience" "that comes from faith" for his name’s sake
(MY NOTE: A Gentiles Faith leads to obedience)

Rom 16:26 Now revealed & made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, "so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience," "that comes from faith"
(MY NOTE: A Gentiles obedience is a direct result of their Faith)

When true Faith is the root obedience & good works will be the fruit.

Good works are the evidences of Genuine FAITH & not a requirement or the cause of salvation.

You quoted 1 Cor 1:13–16 as if it supports your view, but you skipped the part that destroys your argument: Christ sent me NOT to baptize, but to preach the gospel. (1 Cor 1:17). If water most essential part of salvation/AS USE CLAIM. Paul could never say that.

Paul could say that, and he told you why he said that. He said that he did not want to do the baptizing because, he was fearful that they would say they were baptized in Paul's name, but he was not crucified for you, it was Christ that was crucified for you, therefore you are to be baptized in the name of Christ. His reason wasn't because baptism wasn't part of his gospel, it was because they were bickering over who they were of. Please read the text, it is clear why Paul did not want to baptize people, he told you plain as day the reason.

10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

See Paul tells you please listen to the text. No where does he say that baptism is not part of his gospel he just did not want to do the dipping for the reason he told you above. It is you rejecting his reasoning that causes you to come up with such foolishness.

Paul DID baptize a few. But that proves nothing about a formula. Paul baptizing a handful of people does NOT mean: He preached YOUR obsession water baptism formula as part of the gospel & no place in scripture cites that he did. He
NEVER preached water as the means of receiving the Spirit NEVER! He does say: Christ did NOT send me to baptize & I thank God I baptized none of you.

Yes Paul did baptize a few so he accepts the teaching of baptism in the name of Christ. Paul said his own baptism was to wash away his sins. Paul has no sermon recorded in scriptures that I can recall at the moment but does mention it many times in his letters to the churches. Paul goes into great detail explaining how it is the new birth in Romans 6 .

It is you that are having trouble understanding Paul for you missed the clear reason he said he was not sent to baptize it is clear he teaches it and even baptized a few but doesn't do it often for the reason he gave. Please open your eyes to what he said in the passage you take out of context and try to build a doctrine on. It is wrong to do such with scripture.

You keep claiming Paul baptized the Ephesians in Acts 19. But the text never says that. In Acts 19:4 Paul’s ONLY recorded instruction: Was that they should BELIEVE on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. Acts 19:6 Than the Spirit comes by laying on of hands, not water. This isn't your salvation holy grail formula, Peter' preached in Acts 2

It is you that really can't understand clear scripture teaching or just refusing to accept it and believe the words God had recorded but I will go over this with you again slowly so you can see. I will give the benefit of doubt no It doesn't say Paul did the baptizing but it is clear that Paul had it done. Paul preached the baptism of Acts 2:38 and scripture makes that clear there is no way around it by the recorded text. Then you want to say that when Paul laid hands on them that was when they received the promised indwelling spirit. Again that is you not understanding scripture the laying on of hands was not to give the indwelling spirit it gave the power of witness so they could grow the freshly planted church.

He that believes is baptized will be saved” — you’re misusing it
You quoted Mark 16:16, Jesus say's He that believeth (FAITH 1st NOT your salvation holy grail formula order, Peter' preached in Acts 2) & you skipped the second half: Jesus said; He that is not baptized will be condemned. Jesus ties condemnation to UNBELIEF & NOT lack of water baptism.

This is just someone trying there best to find a loop hole where there is none. No one has ever said to be baptized with out faith in the gospel. You must believe the gospel before you can submit to its call.. There is no need to say "He that is not baptized will be condemned" for the rejection of the gospel has already condemned you. This is plain as the nose on your face and tells you are not seeking the truth but trying to make the truth fit your bias. It is when people try to use this reasoning that you know you have hit a brick wall that they no longer are seeking truth but looking for loop holes.

 

[Biilybob65]

continued from # 1970

"Same gospel" does NOT mean "same administration" Same gospel? Yes. Same stewardship? No. Same audience? No. Same revelation? No. Same commission? No. Same baptismal emphasis? No. Paul says:
Given to ME for YOU Gentiles. To whom I NOW send you. "MY gospel." "I laid the foundation." "I received my administration/stewardship/commission, NOT from man but by direct revelation of Jesus Christ.

This remark is so out of line with scripture. I will give you what you say say here

Same gospel" does NOT mean "same administration" Same gospel? Yes. Same stewardship? No. Same audience? No. Same revelation? No. Same commission? No.

Where you go off the rails is here

Same baptismal emphasis? No. Paul says:
Given to ME for YOU Gentiles. To whom I NOW send you. "MY gospel." "I laid the foundation." "I received my administration/stewardship/commission, NOT from man but by direct revelation of Jesus Christ.

Yes Paul was sent to the gentiles but the same command to baptize in the name of Christ was given to Paul as well as anyone who preaches the gospel. it is the answer to to gospel call regardless of the preacher. God gave the instructions no one else and God is no respecter of person. He does not call one group to respond differently than another. For anyone to say otherwise does not understand what the whole of the bible teaches. The bible teaches unity not different ways for different people, I really can't believe you are arguing this.

Peter confirms Paul's administration/stewardship/commission: Peter say's Paul's writings contain wisdom given to him. People twist Paul's writings to their destruction. If Peter & Paul preached the same formula, Peter would not warn people about misunderstanding Paul.

This is because Paul is teaching what the mystery was that was concealed until God was ready to add the gentiles into the kingdom. Remember you said it yourself Paul was sent to bring in the gentiles;

Your entire argument ASSUMESS what you're trying to prove. You keep saying: Paul preached Acts 2:38 because Peter preached Acts 2:38. But Paul says:
Christ did NOT send me to baptize. You received the Spirit by hearing of faith. I thank God I baptized none of you. "One baptism" = Spirit baptism (1 Cor 12:13). If Peter & Paul preached the same message. Please advise where Peter say's. What Paul just said. The two administration/stewardship/commission done line up in scripture.

My dear brother you tell me "Your entire argument ASSUMESS what you're trying to prove'" ,and I repeat that right back at you. I have given you scriptural reason why Paul said "Christ did NOT send me to baptize." It is you that can not read context and grasp why Paul said that. He told you with his own words. You just wont accept his reasoning but want to change the reasoning to fit your bias bu scripture does not support your bias.

Finally, you closed with this:

"""The baptism in Christ name is as much part of the grace as the faith as Jesus said he that believes and is baptized will be saved. saving faith is active not hearing only but doing the gospel is to be obeyed."""

SAVED By GRACE = unearned favor [baptism in Christ name has nothing to do with God's GIFT of GRACE] thru FAITH Salvation is given by Christ' GIFT of the Holy Spirit [NO H2O REQUIRED]. And no surprise you just added another works requirement OBEY.

Genuine faith will result in good works.

Rom 1:5 "Through him we received grace" & apostleship "to call all the Gentiles to the obedience" "that comes from faith" for his name’s sake
(MY NOTE: A Gentiles Faith leads to obedience)

Rom 16:26 Now revealed & made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, "so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience," "that comes from faith"
(MY NOTE: A Gentiles obedience is a direct result of their Faith)

When true Faith is the root obedience & good works will be the fruit.

Good works are the evidences of Genuine FAITH & not a requirement or the cause of salvation

I have been over and over this with scripture backing and you have rejected it. I am not going to rehash this again go back and read previous post where I have dealt with this.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

That verse is written 30 years after Acts 2 Pentecost. Again not applicable to the discussion time frame. You're the one posting nonsense.

Sitting here scratching my head wondering what this has to do with anything

 

[Lamar]

If Noah had refused to build the ark, then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith in God's warning about flooding the earth, but of course, that was not the case. Noah was a true man of faith.

This is error.

Regardless of how correct, strong or sincere a person's faith may be, it is useless if not acted upon.

Esther was a great example of faith but Mordecai warned her that unless she acted she would not escape.

Esther had to act, no amount of faith alone would save her.

Yes, Noah was a great man of faith but without obedience he would have still drowned with the others.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Yes, Noah was a great man of faith but without obedience he would have still drowned with the others.

And he would have been lost because there would be no messiah to save him from his sins

 

[mailmandan]

This is error.

Regardless of how correct, strong or sincere a person's faith may be, it is useless if not acted upon.

Esther was a great example of faith but Mordecai warned her that unless she acted she would not escape.

Esther had to act, no amount of faith alone would save her.

Yes, Noah was a great man of faith but without obedience he would have still drowned with the others.

How is what I said error? Of course Noah would have drowned with the others, if he refused to build the ark, demonstrating a lack of faith, but of course, that was not the case. Keep in mind that Noah had already found grace in the eyes of the Lord and was a just man who walked with God (Genesis 6:8,9) before he built the ark. His obedience was a demonstration of his faith but not the origin of it.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

His obedience was a demonstration of his faith but not the origin of it.

No one even conceives of such an idea, that obedience is the origin of faith, except for you it seems

 

[mailmandan]

No one even conceives of such an idea, that obedience is the origin of faith, except for you it seems

I've heard certain folks say faith is dead "until" it produces works and only then it becomes a living faith and is able to save. That would place obedience/works at the origin of faith.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I've heard certain folks say faith is dead "until" it produces works and only then it becomes a living faith and is able to save. That would place obedience/works at the origin of faith.

I think the real meaning of that is that the outworking (obedience) reflects a genuine faith, ie, not a hypocritical faith the takes the lord's name to themselves in vain by calling him lord, but not doing what he says. So obedience (better definition would be hearkening because anytime you see the word obedience in the bible, that's what the word actually means) doesn't produce faith, it's the natural outworking, or fruit as you say, of a genuine faith

 

[FlyingDove]

Sitting here scratching my head wondering what this has to do with anything

The discussion' primary time line:

Pentecost AD30
Acts 8 Samaria 35
Paul's conversion 36
Acts 10 (Cornelius) 40
Jerusalem Council 50
Blue Letter Bible Source

You're trying to apply
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
(NOTE: To make in himself of 2 peoples into 1 new man)

Acts 10:28 Peter said unto them, Ye know how that it is an ""unlawful"" thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean

My point: 10 Years after Acts 2 Pentecost. Under Jewish Law it's UNLAWFUL for a Jew to keep company with a gentile.

The narrative you're trying to FORCE into the discussion doesn't fit!

 

[mailmandan]

I think the real meaning of that is that the outworking (obedience) reflects a genuine faith, ie, not a hypocritical faith the takes the lord's name to themselves in vain by calling him lord, but not doing what he says. So obedience (better definition would be hearkening because anytime you see the word obedience in the bible, that's what the word actually means) doesn't produce faith, it's the natural outworking, or fruit as you say, of a genuine faith

Outworking (obedience) reflects or demonstrates a genuine faith is how I see it. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.