Jesus and Paul, not Versus

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I agree that Jesus taught only one gospel, but to assume that with the fall of Israel, the very ones who were allegedly supposed to spread Kingdom Gospel to the Gentiles who actually had to join with Israel to be saved, that's a little difference that remains overlooked by most. Let's look at what actually did happen:

Acts 11:19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

That covers the period of time and a people after the the ascension, after Pentecost and after Paul's conversion. If they were still required to preach to all, then why only to the Jews? Did something change? Yes it did.

The answer is very simple, but I'll leave that to all the myriad of assumptions that so many out there foster without any regard for scripture and what it clearly teaches to us in a more holistic panorama. Many out there simply don't like learning that they've been wrong all along about a number of things, and many are not about the change their minds no matter what scripture says. I'm not putting you in that category, but there are quiet a few out there who inadvertently align with that very sentiment while refusing to make the admission.
...but Jesus’ teaching remained clear: salvation is found in faith expressed through obedience.[/QUOTE]

I fully agree. Paul, on the other hand, did not teach such, which again shows to us the uniqueness of his gospel given to Him by that same Jesus. Paul's gospel was not what he had learned from men, but ONLY from Christ Jesus. He stated that in Gal. 1:11-12. Paul knew and persecuted the early church on the basis of what he knew was the gospel preached by Jesus and the twelve. I've pointed this out to you and you've ignored it. Why?



1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

As you can see, there's nothing in Paul's Gospel of salvation that points back to including the things Jesus commanded of Israel. What Paul preached in these passages is what was given to him directly from Christ Jesus, with not one thing stated about any requirement for water baptism for the remission of sins, as was the case for Israel preached to them by Peter in Acts 2:38, and yet you believe they are one and the same gospel? How do you get that? Why ignore the difference?

By ignoring the requirement upon Israel for them to receive remission of their sins through water baptism, don't you agree they had salvation ONLY after the remission of their sins through water baptism?

Gentiles, on the other hand, once salvation had come unto them, which clearly means it was not available to them directly before, have no such requirement upon them without one trying to illegitimately jam into the text what was addressed to Israel before her fall.

Please discuss this from your perspective in reading what's stated in scripture, especially what's quoted here. I've already agreed with you about what Jesus preached to Israel. What I take issue with is the illegitimate practice of transplanting His commands upon Israel over upon Gentiles and Jews under the Gospel of Grace when there's no evidence whatsoever in the texts that Paul was in any way remiss in his gospel of salvation to them.

Thanks

MM[/QUOTE]

The main error here, and this is crucial to understand, is the idea that Jesus was teaching only Israel and not the whole world. That assumption controls the entire argument, and because the starting point is wrong, the conclusions also go wrong.
Jesus did not teach a gospel meant only for Israel that later expired or failed. Jesus taught the Kingdom of God, and He clearly said it was for all nations. After His resurrection He did not change His message. He confirmed it.
Jesus said, “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you” (Matthew 28:19–20, NKJV). Notice what He did not say. He did not say, “Teach them a new message,” or “Do not teach them what I commanded Israel.” He said teach the nations what I commanded. That alone removes the idea that His commands were only for Israel.
Now to Acts 11:19. Yes, at first the scattered believers preached only to Jews. But that does not mean the message changed. It means their understanding was slow, not that Jesus’ gospel was replaced. Jesus had already told them about “other sheep not of this fold” (John 10:16). The delay was human fear, habit, and confusion, not a new gospel.
This is proven clearly in Acts 10. Peter did not say, “I bring you a different gospel now.” He said, “God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean”. Then he preached Jesus, and the Holy Spirit fell on Gentiles before any argument about law, nation, or rituals. That shows the same salvation, the same Lord, the same faith.
About baptism in Acts 2:38. Peter was speaking to people who had rejected and crucified the Messiah. Baptism was their public repentance and return. But even there, Peter did not invent something new. Jesus Himself taught repentance, obedience, and forgiveness. Baptism does not replace faith. It expresses it.
The mistake is to turn historical moments into permanent divisions. Acts is a book of transition, not of competing gospels. What never changes is Jesus’ teaching: faith that listens, follows, and obeys.
You are right to say that Paul often focused on Christ’s death and resurrection. But silence about Jesus’ commands does not cancel Jesus’ commands. The Judge is not Paul. Jesus said, “The word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day” (John 12:48, NKJV). That applies to Jew and Gentile alike.
So the issue is not “Israel’s gospel versus Gentile gospel.” That idea is never taught by Jesus. The real picture is this: salvation always comes from trusting Jesus, and that trust is shown by obedience to His words. The apostles did not replace that. They carried it outward, slowly and imperfectly, but the foundation never changed.
Jesus did not give two paths, two standards, or two kinds of disciples. He gave one narrow path, one Lord, and one call: follow Me.
 
proper and accepted hermeneutics for understanding the texts demands first the literal, if that doesn't work then the comparative, and if that doesn't work then the allegorical approach

Actually, the correct hermeneutical method is to find the spiritual interpretation first, because after all the bible is a spiritual book, then if that cannot be found, apply a historical or natural interpretation. Literal can mean natural or spiritual depending on the author's intent.
 
The main error here, and this is crucial to understand, is the idea that Jesus was teaching only Israel and not the whole world. That assumption controls the entire argument, and because the starting point is wrong, the conclusions also go wrong.

Whoops! Wait a minute. I never said that what Jesus taught expired. What Jesus taught did not become expired, but was rather put on hold with the fall of Israel.

What I pointed out in other wording is that the Kingdom Gospel was, in essence, as stated here, put on hold to usher in the dispensation of grace because of Israel's decline, or fall if you will. I just want to make sure that's understood.

Gentiles had never before been given the Law, so the Kingdom Gospel, rooted in faith demonstrated through obedience to the Law, had to be placed on hold (Acts 21:20). Acts 15 shows this to us the mere four items from the Law that were laid upon Gentiles.

But, if you believe you're saved through fleshly efforts of obedience, then go for it.

I do have, however, grave reservations that handing your resume to the Lord will not at all avail anything in your favor if you're actually saved purely and only by grace through faith...not faith as you have redefined it in conformance to what was given to Israel, but faith as Paul defined it apart from works, lest one should boast. Good luck with boasting.

Transplanting the requirement for obedient adherence to commandments beholden only upon Israel under the Kingdom Gospel, we shall see just how well that pans out.

Go for it.

MM
 
Gentiles had never before been given the Law, so the Kingdom Gospel, rooted in faith demonstrated through obedience to the Law, had to be placed on hold (Acts 21:20). Acts 15 shows this to us the mere four items from the Law that were laid upon Gentiles.

"Faith demonstrated through obedience to the Law" is just another way of saying works of law, which are the opposite of grace.

Peter said they, the remnant of Israel, were saved by grace as the gentiles were, not by works of law that were an unbearable yoke to them.

Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke [of the law] upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they [the gentiles]. Acts 15:10-11
When are you going to start reading the bible instead of getting your theology off the back of cereal boxes?
 
Whoops! Wait a minute. I never said that what Jesus taught expired. What Jesus taught did not become expired, but was rather put on hold with the fall of Israel.

What I pointed out in other wording is that the Kingdom Gospel was, in essence, as stated here, put on hold to usher in the dispensation of grace because of Israel's decline, or fall if you will. I just want to make sure that's understood.

Gentiles had never before been given the Law, so the Kingdom Gospel, rooted in faith demonstrated through obedience to the Law, had to be placed on hold (Acts 21:20). Acts 15 shows this to us the mere four items from the Law that were laid upon Gentiles.

But, if you believe you're saved through fleshly efforts of obedience, then go for it.

I do have, however, grave reservations that handing your resume to the Lord will not at all avail anything in your favor if you're actually saved purely and only by grace through faith...not faith as you have redefined it in conformance to what was given to Israel, but faith as Paul defined it apart from works, lest one should boast. Good luck with boasting.

Transplanting the requirement for obedient adherence to commandments beholden only upon Israel under the Kingdom Gospel, we shall see just how well that pans out.

Go for it.

MM

This idea that Jesus’ Kingdom message was “put on hold” is not something Jesus ever taught.

Jesus never said His words would pause, delay, or change because of Israel’s response. In fact, He said the opposite. He said, “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away” (Matthew 24:35, NKJV). Words that never pass away cannot be placed on hold.
Jesus also did not limit His message to Israel forever. While He began there, He clearly spoke of others beyond Israel. He said, “And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring” (John 10:16). That is not a paused Kingdom. That is a Kingdom expanding.
The claim that Gentiles were never given God’s ways is also not fully true. Long before Jesus, Gentiles like Abraham, Rahab, Ruth, and Nineveh were accepted by God through faith that led to obedience. God has always judged people by how they respond to the light they are given. Jesus confirmed this when He said that the men of Nineveh would rise in judgment because they repented at Jonah’s preaching (Matthew 12:41). That was not Israel’s Law system, yet repentance and obedience still mattered.
Acts 15 is often misunderstood. The apostles were not saying Gentiles should only obey four commands forever. They were addressing how Gentiles could enter fellowship without becoming Jews. James himself explains the reason: “For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city” (Acts 15:21). In other words, this was a starting point, not a replacement for Jesus’ teaching.
Jesus never taught salvation by “handing God a resume.” That is a false picture. He taught salvation by following Him from the heart. He said, “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven” (Matthew 7:21). Doing the Father’s will is not boasting. It is obedience born from faith.

Jesus also made it clear what faith looks like. “He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me” (John 14:21). Love, faith, and obedience are not enemies. They belong together. Separating them is what Jesus warned against when He said people would call Him Lord while refusing to do what He says (Luke 6:46).
Grace was not introduced after Israel’s fall. Grace was present the moment Jesus started to preach and teach even at a very young age. He forgave sinners, healed the broken, and called people to repent and follow Him. But grace never canceled obedience. Grace teaches us how to live, not how to ignore Jesus’ words.

Jesus said something very serious that cannot be set aside: “The word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day” (John 12:48). If His words judge all people, then they cannot be paused, limited, or reassigned to another group.
This is not about Israel versus Gentiles. It is about whether Jesus’ words still mean what He said. And according to Jesus Himself, they do.
 
This idea that Jesus’ Kingdom message was “put on hold” is not something Jesus ever taught.

He didn't say anything about it because it remained a mystery withheld, hidden in God, from the time of the shaping of the foundations of this world, and for good reason:

1 Corinthians 2:6-8
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

"Princes" is an idiom for Satan and his prince demons, not "prince Charles" and the like...

This particular mystery, biblically defined as "hidden wisdom," wasn't revealed before, nor during, Christ's earthly ministry. That's not at all surprising, and is not therefore a basis for doubt given that it was later revealed to Paul because of the effect it would have had in even staying the hand of Satan and his prince demons from crucifying Christ. Satan was not aware that crucifying Christ would set into motion events that would and did eventually lead to the greatest defeat Satan could not have ever envisioned, which is salvation being directly available to Gentiles, whom Jesus referred to as "dogs."

As stated, that mystery later revealed was this:

Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

That it IS sent (spoken in the present tense at that time) clearly shows to us that Gentiles, before, didn't have it available to them apart from becoming a Jew (Est. 8:17). I don't mean to belabor the obvious in all this, but do so for the benefit of those reading but not commenting, and given that most Evangelicals never read these things systematically in order to put it all together. I missed it for decades. This isn't some creation of Darby or any other recent men given that it comes directly from the scriptures written LONG before those men's lives.

Satan had all Gentiles in his back pocket (so to speak) before the "middle wall of partition" was brought down, Gentiles who numbered far in excess in population in relation to the population of Israel.

After the fall of Israel, Gentiles had no other means for salvation, which led to the Lord bringing to the world through Paul the Gospel of Grace, which came unto them, again stated, through Paul after the "middle wall of partition" came down. What's unfortunate is, that fall of Israel has given rise to the evils of replacement theologies that are so deeply entrenched within Western Christianity that some even believe the Church has "replaced" Israel in relation to the blessings AND promises made to Abraham. Gentiles will need more than just luck with that foolish notion...

So, it's not at all remarkable that Jesus didn't reveal what was hidden in God for reasons that no man, angel or demon knew about until it was revealed and put into motion by Paul and his fellow workers among the scattered Jews and Gentiles, NOT in Jerusalem. Paul refused to touch any other man's work in the gospel:

Galatians 2:7-8
7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:

Verses like these and others remain ignored or "interpreted" into oblivion by those who apply only subjective whim to scripture, even applying allegorical interpretational theories to it all to subjectively make it into whatever they so desire, given that there are no absolute rules governing allegory.

Realistically speaking, Jesus did prophesy the fall of Israel in Luke 13.

MM
 
Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Thinking about Hebrews 6, the doctrine of Arminianism teaches that people don't have eternal security, so one can allegedly be a true believer, but if one falls away, then one loses his salvation, but he allegedly has the ability to get it back. There are multiple different denominations that hold to this doctrine of what is labeled as Arminianism, but notice what is written to the Hebrews: It's written for a time when there was a distinction between Jew and Gentile; when the middle wall of partition was in effect. Does Hebrews 6 teach that someone can fall away and be renewed to repentance, or does Hebrews 6 teach that if you fall away under that program, that's it it's over?

Notice again Hebrews 6:4, that it's impossible. In other words, it can't be done. It can't happen, for it's impossible for those who were once enlightened. Go down to verse six...if they shall fall away to renew them again under repentance, under the kingdom program, if someone falls away, can they be renewed unto repentance? The answer is, no, they can't.

Under grace, can someone lose their salvation? No. They can't. You're saved by grace through faith, apart from works. The moment one has faith, they're sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, so it's impossible for a believer under the Gospel of Grace to lose his salvation.

When Hebrews 6 says it's impossible if they fall away to renew them again under repentance, that means they have to endure, doesn't it? If they fall away, they're out of luck, so they have to endure...

2 Peter 1:10-11
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

We've seen multiple different verses under the kingdom program that they all clearly teach that one has to endure. One has to endure unto the end.

Is endurance necessary for salvation under the Kingdom Gospel? The answer to that is, yes, but we today are not under that Kingdom Gospel.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

What you need to notice even from those who taught the Kingdom Gospel is that verse says he that believeth on the son...and what's the next word "hath." It doesn't say we'll obtain it in the future, it doesn't say we'll get it later. What does it say? "Hath." So he that believeth on the Son, "hath." He already possesses eternal life. He's not waiting for it.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Under the Kingdom Gospel, however, there are multiple verses that indicate endurance unto the end is required. There are also multiple verses that teach eternal security, and they indicate the present possession of eternal life. So again, in John 3:36, he that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life. In John 5:24, "He that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me hath everlasting life, but is passed from death unto life. In John 6:47, "He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."

The issue we have to reconcile are verses that say endurance unto the end, the same shall be saved. There's verses that say hath everlasting life already possessed, possesses it. How do we reconcile that under the kingdom program?

So, the loss of salvation crowd are indeed overlooking the permanence of salvation even within the Kingdom Gospel they lean toward.

MM
 
The reason why we should obey God’s law has absolutely nothing to do with trying to be good enough to earn our justification as the result, so a I completely agree with those verses. We can’t earn our justification even as the result of perfect obedience to the Law of God (Romans 4:1-5) because it was never given as a way of earning our justification. That has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the law, which is why Paul spoke against it. However, the fact that we can’t earn our justification as the result of our obedience to God’s law does not mean that we are not obligated to obey it. Paul also affirmed in Romans 2:13 that only the doers of God’s law will be justified, which is because everyone who has justifying faith is a doer of the law through that faith. In other words, a person become someone who has faith, someone who will be justified, and someone who is a doer of the law all at the same time and anyone who is not one of those is also not the others, but we do not earn our justification as the result of our obedience.

Sin is the transgression of God’s law (1 John 3:4) and Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of it is intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not being a doer of it. Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while we continued to be doers of sin, so there is an aspect of our gift of salvation that we are experiencing in the present by repenting and redirecting our lives towards be doers of God’s law. This is in accordance with Titus 2:11-13 where the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly. Likewise, in Titus 2:14, Jesus did not just give himself to pay the penalty of our sin but also to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works.

In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith alone. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to have faith in God is by obediently having faith in His law and it would be contradictory to think that we should have faith in God but not in His law. God’s Word is His instructions for how to have faith in God’s Word made flesh, which is why there are many verses that connect our faith in God with our obedience to His Word such as Revelation 14:12 where those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God’s commandments.


Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

The Gospel went out to Jew first and then the Gentiles so that Jews could have the opportunity to fulfill the role of being a light and a blessing to the nations is accordance with the promise. This is again why Jesus sent his disciples only to Jews first and then commissioned them to go to all nations. Paul also spread the Gospel of the Kingdom (Acts 14:21-22, 20:24-25, 28:23).

I like how Paul put it in that walking by the Spirit and loving our neighbor is a fulfillment of the Law.

Galatians 5:14 — For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Romans 13:10 — Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

So, any problem with the Law is now dealt with except for those who are contentious and cranky toward his neighbor.

Additionally, there are some here who still believe wor,s ARE a matter and concern forntheir salvation. I'm just trying to help them find the freedom Christ paid for us to have.

Romans 3:19 — Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

I'm not under the Law. Are you? I'm dead to the Law.

MM
 
I'm not under the Law. Are you? I'm dead to the Law.

Being dead to the law doesn't mean being without law, because those in Christ are under the law of Christ. Those who don't do what he says are cast away as dead branckes and burned.

And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. 1 Corinthians 9:20-21
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6