144,000: The first resurrection and rapture of the church

[Aaron56]

I was not randomly trying out different ideas. That was how the Gnostic sects arose - by assuming the Bible was a code book of types and allegories which the "Enlightened" could interpret as they they were led by their personal feelings and associations. You seem to think gratuitous denials like "No it's not." are sufficient to defend your views...but they are not.

No, you just have to try better than a generalization about Gnosticism. Try again?

 

[Psalm1]

1st, My post clearly stated this:
"""1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept."""
(MY NOTE: Christ is resurrected 1st)

Next, I posted my position to the OP's claim in Post 1 & 2 that say's QUOTE:
"""3. The 144,000 cannot be only the natural children of Israel, since all the names of the tribes engraved on the high priest's ephod, are not written in Rev 7. Dan is not included, so that the Scripture is broken between the Old and New Testament names."""

You disagree (debunk) my position & that's fine with me. I disagree with your position that the 144k are all Jews.

Rev 4 clearly says 12 Tribes & 12 thousand from each.

1st scripture mention of the Hebrew word (Yehudi) = JEW: 2 Kings 16:6, 2nd mention 2 Kings 25:25 BC 586.

Judah is 1 of Jacob's 12 sons (Gen 29:35). His descendants form the tribe of Judah & later become the kingdom of Judah.

Where does the/a Jew come from? > Jacob's son Judah. Jesus/a Jew born in Bethlehem/Judah is called the Lion from the tribe of Judah

Rev 14:3-5 Being redeemed from the earth, among men, all virgins, no guile in them (pure, truthful, without deceit) & and firstfruits unto God.

Finally:
I'm hard pressed in thinking/finding (Rev 14:3-5) 144k men (living past 2 yrs old) that are virgins, redeemed from among men & in their mouth was found no guile/pure/truthful/without fault.

So, who are these 144k Jews you are referencing?

It says that they are firstfruits.

Jesus is our firstfruits.

That makes them some other firstfruits.

Firstfruits is DIRECTLY tied to harvest.

If all components are on the table, it is then I may connect the dots.

About 90% of members here have no idea about firstfruits.

 

[Psalm1]

Exactly. Prophetically and now doctrinally, Gentile was never an exact translation and a mistaken interpretation. In the OT and NT, there was only goy and ethnos for nation. As well as for Hellenic Greeks:

Rom 2:9
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Hellene (Gentile); But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Hellene (Gentile):

'Gentile' is only a word made up solely for interpretation, that would separate uncircumcised nations vs circumcised national Israel; I.e. uncircumcised goyim vs circumcised goy of Israel.

Gen 10:5
By these were the isles of the Gentiles (Goy) divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations (Goy)

The first appearance of 'Gentiles' is only a throw-back interpretation, that foreshadows the separation between the circumcised goy of Israel, and all other 'Gentile' goyim. And the only reason 'Gentiles' could be used here, is because the goy of Israel would not be that of the isles.

Gen 10:31
These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, after their nations

We see here that 'Gentiles' is not used for all those goyim of the lands, which in future would also include the goy of Israel.

Gen 12:2
And I will make of thee a great nation (goy), and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

And finally we see here, that the great nation of Israel sprung from Abraham, is a goy.

In the OT, 'Gentile' could be an accepted interpretation for uncircumcised nations, as distinct from the Israelite nation circumcised to the God of Israel. However that interpretive allowance ends, when the goy of Israel has Jesus Christ crucified to death:

Jhn 11:48
If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

We see here, that the high priest was arguing for their own nation, not for the nation founded by the God of Israel, the Israel of God.

Jer 9:25
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will punish all them which are circumcised with the uncircumcised; Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart.

Act 7:51
Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Why did those nationalist Jews rush to stone Stephen after this? Because by the Spirit, he was calling them uncircumcised goy,

Rom 2:25
For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

For the same reason they persecuted Paul, when calling their nation uncircumcised to God.

Natural Israel after the flesh knowingly made themselves just another goy/ethnos of their own on earth. They are now uncircumcised 'Gentile' to God.

And, if any of those nations being uncircumcised to Jesus Christ, can be called Gentiles, then all of them must be called Gentiles, whether Jew or Greek.

Rom 2:9
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew (Gentile) first, and also of the Hellene (Gentile); But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew (Gentile) first, and also to the gentile Hellene (Gentile).

If the Hellenos can be doctrinally made Gentile, then so can the Ioudaios, for there is now no respect of persons after the flesh, but only the circumcision of Christ after the Spirit.

QUOTE
"" then so can the Ioudaios, for there is now no respect of persons after the flesh, but only the circumcision of Christ after the Spirit:"

Replacement theology adherents and their challengers believe all that.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

No it's not. Try something else.

Since you deny that the "Twelve Tribes" mentioned by name and number in Revelation means the literal "Twelve Tribes" we are familiar with, what do each one of these "twelve tribes" signify allegorically and typologically in your idiosyncratic system of interpretation and, second, from whom, did you get this system?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Since you deny that the "Twelve Tribes" mentioned by name and number in Revelation means the literal "Twelve Tribes" we are familiar with, what do each one of these "twelve tribes" signify allegorically and typologically in your idiosyncratic system of interpretation and, second, from whom, did you get this system?

The list in Rev 7 is problematic for a literal interpretation because those are not the original 12 tribes in regards to land inheritance. Levi was not listed among the 12 tribes, but it is in Rev 7. Dan and Ephraim are missing, the latter being most significant because they inherited the birthright and inheritance of all of the promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; and Israel was literally called by the name of Ephraim. Also, Joseph was not a tribe, but it is in Rev 7.

So something different than a literal (natural) interpretation seems appropriate.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I was not randomly trying out different ideas. That was how the Gnostic sects arose - by assuming the Bible was a code book of types and allegories which the "Enlightened" could interpret as they they were led by their personal feelings and associations. You seem to think gratuitous denials like "No it's not." are sufficient to defend your views...but they are not.

Paul also did the same, and in fact set the precedent for doing so, so you are being much too general trying to associate such a hermeneutical method only with the gnostics

 

[memberofthebride]

Neither were there any OT saints resurrected from their graves:

Act 2:29
Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Job 19:25
For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God,

Both Job and David still await the resurrection of their dead bodies, at the return of Jesus Christ to earth.

Comment;

the First Resurrection is not back to our temporary physical bodies -- but to spirit

1 Corinthians 15
42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption;(physical) it is raised in incorruption: (spirit)

Philippians 3
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

In the first resurrection we are "born from above" and into spirit exactly as Christ is now Spirit, same body as Jesus Christ

there is a 2nd resurrection and that resurrection is back to flesh and blood see Ezekiel 37, to be judged

 

[Aaron56]

Since you deny that the "Twelve Tribes" mentioned by name and number in Revelation means the literal "Twelve Tribes" we are familiar with, what do each one of these "twelve tribes" signify allegorically and typologically in your idiosyncratic system of interpretation and, second, from whom, did you get this system?

They are not the 12 tribes. Please reread.

 

[Psalm1]

Since you deny that the "Twelve Tribes" mentioned by name and number in Revelation means the literal "Twelve Tribes" we are familiar with, what do each one of these "twelve tribes" signify allegorically and typologically in your idiosyncratic system of interpretation and, second, from whom, did you get this system?

I can tell you what's going on with that entire deal.
The Tribe deniers start off with doctrine, and from that starting place, they proceed.
One doctrine is replacement theology, so in their minds there's no way God has anything to do with the Jews, Israel ,Hebrews, etc.
And so the replacement theology roadblock prevents obvious interpretation.
It is severe mental block. And you read the same thing they do. But they are reading into it all kinds of fluff and filler and omission.
That is why they were not answering a direct question.
The other pointer and lense the tribe deniers use, is postrib rapture, no rapture, preterist, or maybe they hate Jesus declaring a pretrib rapture.
Because of that they have zero understanding of covenant, the 2 wives of the ot( Ruth / and Gomer.).
Then they have no understanding of God's purpose in the 7 yr trib of Daniel.
Ask them to read romans 11.
They will "show you" every word with a backwards lense.

So from such a rickety platform they procede.

Bloom! All kinds of weird apologies that they use to "straighten out" the written word.

" there are no tribes"
"There are no Jews"
" Jews are from Judah"
"Israel is now the church"
"All Revelation is alegory"

All based on a "starting place".
Bad starting place.
God's word through a mental meat grinder.

 

[memberofthebride]

I can tell you what's going on with that entire deal.
The Tribe deniers start off with doctrine, and from that starting place, they proceed.
One doctrine is replacement theology, so in their minds there's no way God has anything to do with the Jews, Israel ,Hebrews, etc.
And so the replacement theology roadblock prevents obvious interpretation.
It is severe mental block. And you read the same thing they do. But they are reading into it all kinds of fluff and filler and omission.
That is why they were not answering a direct question.
The other pointer and lense the tribe deniers use, is postrib rapture, no rapture, preterist, or maybe they hate Jesus declaring a pretrib rapture.
Because of that they have zero understanding of covenant, the 2 wives of the ot( Ruth / and Gomer.).
Then they have no understanding of God's purpose in the 7 yr trib of Daniel.
Ask them to read romans 11.
They will "show you" every word with a backwards lense.

So from such a rickety platform they procede.

Bloom! All kinds of weird apologies that they use to "straighten out" the written word.

" there are no tribes"
"There are no Jews"
" Jews are from Judah"
"Israel is now the church"
"All Revelation is alegory"

All based on a "starting place".
Bad starting place.
God's word through a mental meat grinder.

Comment:
I have proven to my self, by scripture, the House of Judah, 2 tribes, are the Jews,, the house of Israel is Hebrew.

Slang for Judah JEW -dah

 

[memberofthebride]

I agree with the rest of your comment

 

[Psalm1]

Comment:
I have proven to my self, by scripture, the House of Judah, 2 tribes, are the Jews,, the house of Israel is Hebrew.

Slang for Judah JEW -dah

The bible calls them ( the 12 tribes) "Jews" in the NT.
The Gospels and Epistles are loaded with the word "Jews", in reference to the ethnic tribal people ( hebrews/Israelites).

We all know the tribe of Judah thingy.
(Jew = judah) IN THE OT.

But to say "jews" only refers to that tribe in the NT is a massive error.
Massive.

 

[memberofthebride]

The bible calls them ( the 12 tribes) "Jews" in the NT.
The Gospels and Epistles are loaded with the word "Jews", in reference to the ethnic tribal people ( hebrews/Israelites).

We all know the tribe of Judah thingy.
(Jew = judah) IN THE OT.

But to say "jews" only refers to that tribe in the NT is a massive error.
Massive.

Comment

The 10 tribes are gone, they are called the Lost 10 Tribes, no written record they ever returned in any numbers,
In 2 kings 16 the House of Israel is at war with the Jews. first time in the bible the term "Jew" is mentioned.
I have found zero scriptures stating Abraham, Isaac or Jacob are Jews, Hebrews, yes
the two sons of Joseph are half Hebrew, their mother is Egyptian and Ephraim, God call His first born son and is head of the House of Israel.

there is another huge problem. the prophecy of Jacob, for his son Joseph's two sons.
Manasseh is to become a great nation and Ephraim a company of Nations.
at the end of 6000 years there finally is one tiny nation of Jews,
And at the time of the end, the seed of Abraham is to be in numbers as the sand of the sea and the stars above.
the prophecies are many and the Jews have never fulfilled one.

and the Throne of David must exist today with a king from the Tribe of Judah sitting on it,, thats a throne that has existed for over 2500 years

Every thing above is found in prophecy

all jews are hebrews but not all hebrews are jews

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

all jews are hebrews but not all hebrews are jews

Actually not so. Many now are descendants of converts

 

[memberofthebride]

Comment

The 10 tribes are gone, they are called the Lost 10 Tribes, no written record they ever returned in any numbers,
In 2 kings 16 the House of Israel is at war with the Jews. first time in the bible the term "Jew" is mentioned.
I have found zero scriptures stating Abraham, Isaac or Jacob are Jews, Hebrews, yes
the two sons of Joseph are half Hebrew, their mother is Egyptian and Ephraim, God call His first born son and is head of the House of Israel.

there is another huge problem. the prophecy of Jacob, for his son Joseph's two sons.
Manasseh is to become a great nation and Ephraim a company of Nations.
at the end of 6000 years there finally is one tiny nation of Jews,
And at the time of the end, the seed of Abraham is to be in numbers as the sand of the sea and the stars above.
the prophecies are many and the Jews have never fulfilled one.

and the Throne of David must exist today with a king from the Tribe of Judah sitting on it,, thats a throne that has existed for over 2500 years

Every thing above is found in prophecy

all jews are hebrews but not all hebrews are jews

Just thought of another. please how this prophecy can be describing the tiny nation of Jews, the Jews have never ever been two nations. today are the Jews split into two anything? no more two KINGDOMS??

Ezekiel 37

15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and [for] all the house of Israel his companions:
1 7And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou [meanest] by these?
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which [is] in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, [even] with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

They are not the 12 tribes. Please reread.

In Revelation 7:1-8, the 144,000 are described as being sealed from every TRIBE of the sons of Israel. The text specifies that 12,000 are sealed from each of the twelve tribes, making a total of 144,000.
Nevertheless, YOU insist that these are NOT taken our of the "twelve tribes." Should we believe you or the sccriptures?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

In Revelation 7:1-8, the 144,000 are described as being sealed from every TRIBE of the sons of Israel. The text specifies that 12,000 are sealed from each of the twelve tribes, making a total of 144,000.
Nevertheless, YOU insist that these are NOT taken our of the "twelve tribes." Should we believe you or the sccriptures?

Rev 7 does not list the 12 tribes of natural Israel. Some are, some aren't and some are missing

 

[Psalm1]

Comment

The 10 tribes are gone, they are called the Lost 10 Tribes, no written record they ever returned in any numbers,
In 2 kings 16 the House of Israel is at war with the Jews. first time in the bible the term "Jew" is mentioned.
I have found zero scriptures stating Abraham, Isaac or Jacob are Jews, Hebrews, yes
the two sons of Joseph are half Hebrew, their mother is Egyptian and Ephraim, God call His first born son and is head of the House of Israel.

there is another huge problem. the prophecy of Jacob, for his son Joseph's two sons.
Manasseh is to become a great nation and Ephraim a company of Nations.
at the end of 6000 years there finally is one tiny nation of Jews,
And at the time of the end, the seed of Abraham is to be in numbers as the sand of the sea and the stars above.
the prophecies are many and the Jews have never fulfilled one.

and the Throne of David must exist today with a king from the Tribe of Judah sitting on it,, thats a throne that has existed for over 2500 years

Every thing above is found in prophecy

all jews are hebrews but not all hebrews are jews

 

[ewq1938]

Comment;

the First Resurrection is not back to our temporary physical bodies -- but to spirit

No. The FR is when the saved dead are resurrected into new immortal bodies. Any "spiritual resurrection" would be when a person was born again and saved, which happen BEFORE they physically die. After that death, the only resurrection possible is the physical one.

1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

 

[Psalm1]

Comment

The 10 tribes are gone, they are called the Lost 10 Tribes, no written record they ever returned in any numbers,
In 2 kings 16 the House of Israel is at war with the Jews. first time in the bible the term "Jew" is mentioned.
I have found zero scriptures stating Abraham, Isaac or Jacob are Jews, Hebrews, yes
the two sons of Joseph are half Hebrew, their mother is Egyptian and Ephraim, God call His first born son and is head of the House of Israel.

there is another huge problem. the prophecy of Jacob, for his son Joseph's two sons.
Manasseh is to become a great nation and Ephraim a company of Nations.
at the end of 6000 years there finally is one tiny nation of Jews,
And at the time of the end, the seed of Abraham is to be in numbers as the sand of the sea and the stars above.
the prophecies are many and the Jews have never fulfilled one.

and the Throne of David must exist today with a king from the Tribe of Judah sitting on it,, thats a throne that has existed for over 2500 years

Every thing above is found in prophecy

all jews are hebrews but not all hebrews are jews

Acts 26
6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God, unto our fathers:
7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

Paul did not think the tribes were lost.

James 1
1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

James certainly thought the tribes would get his letter.