Acts 2:38 Comparison: Evangelical vs. Oneness / Baptismal-Regeneration View

[FlyingDove]

First good job with replying and not getting everything mixed up.

Romans, 10:1 starts out this way.
Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

The reason Paul didn't mention baptism is because he is speaking to the church he started, NOT THE UNSAVED.

In 10:9 he is tells those who are saved to get out and confess JESUS or they will lose their salvation, as you shared

Notice just down a little more,
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Being filled with the Holy Ghost didn't start until JESUS ascended the second time, if GOD was going to fill someone with the Holy Ghost Abraham sure would have been on the top of the list.

No debate, we are saved by grace not by works.

JESUS SAID IN,
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Why do you think JESUS said we have to be born of WATER and of SPIRIT TO ENTER?

Being baptized in a commandment not works.

When a person is baptized who is doing the work anyway?

The one walking into the water? Or the one doing HIS will and baptizing you?

Do you understand that Paul was born of water and of spirit and speaks to his churches about both and the importance of it?

If Paul was speaking to you today, don't you think he would ask you like I did, HAVE YOU received the Holy Ghost since YOU HAVE BELIEVED???

So now we know that you have not been baptized in JESUS name for remission of sins or been filled with HIS spirit, why do you think you go to go?

With all of that being said,

If Peters first message IS NOT TRUE,

Acts 2:38-39
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

THREE QUESTIONS.

1. Are we still born in sin?
2. Will sin enter Heaven?
3. How do we get rid of them?

You keep assuming your conclusion & then arguing from it. I've already answered your question directly: YES! According to Scripture, I have received the Holy Spirit since I believed (Eph 1:13). You insist that "receiving the Holy Ghost" = speaking in tongues. Scripture doesn't support that notion as a salvation requirement.

What you really mean is: "FD, you haven’t spoken in tongues" (which BTW I've never said) therefore you can't be saved. That's your denomination’s definition, not the Bible's.

You're insistence that "receiving the Holy Ghost" = speaking in tongues. Scripture never cites that action as a salvation requirement.

I'll note just a couple (it's riddled with them) problems with your posts narrative

1 Cori 14:2 is about the gift of tongues in the church, not the new birth. Paul explicitly says not all speak in tongues (1 Cor 12:30). If tongues were required for salvation, Paul would never say that.

Eph 1:13 says believers are sealed with the Spirit when they believe. You’re trying to override Paul’s teaching with selective narrative events. That’s not how doctrine works.

You claim Acts 2, 10 & 19 support your "misguided mandatory tongues are necessary for salvation" doctrine. You're free not to accept the biblical definition unless it matches your denomination’s experience.

As for Acts 2, 8, 10 & 19. 4 special Church expansion events.

Acts 2, Salvations door opened to Jews 1st (Rom 1:16 & 2:10),

Acts 8, Samaritans (Jews that had intermarried/against Mosaic law. Jews viewed them as unclean & outside of covenant protections) Chapter 8 isn't about salvation. Its about the outward manifestation of the Spirit marking the inclusion of Samaritans into the church. They had already believed & been baptized. The Spirit "falling" was a Pentecost like Church expansion event. This actually disproves the idea that tongues are required for salvation. IS THAT WHY YOU LEFT THIS VERSE OUT?

Acts 10, Here God opens the door to salvation to Gentiles (Jews viewed them as unclean dogs, living outside of covenant seals). The Spirit falling, another Pentecost like outward manifestation of the Spirit marking the inclusion of Gentiles into the church.

Acts 19, disciples baptized by John. The Holy Spirit marking the inclusion Old Covenant "believers in Christ" brought into New Covenant.

ORDER OF SPECIAL NT/CHURCH INCLUSION HISTORICAL EVENTS

Passage - Believe - Baptized - Spirit received - Tongues - Hands laid

Acts 2 yes - after - Spirit falls 1st - Yes - No

Acts 8 yes - before - After apostles arrive - No - Yes

Acts 10 yes - spirit falls 1st - Before baptism - Yes - No

Acts 19 after hearing - after - After hands laid - Yes - Yes

Tongues in Acts a special event marking a new group entering the kingdom.

If tongues, water baptism or laying on of hands were required for salvation. Acts would show one consistent pattern. Instead, Acts gives 4 different sequences. These rituals that your sect requires for salvation aren't supported by scripture.

By GRACE are you SAVED thru FAITH & FAITH ALONE. NO rituals required.

None of 4 events cited say tongues are required for salvation, none of them say tongues equals receiving the Spirit.

If laying on of hands is required to receive the Holy Ghost. Then ALL the believers in Acts 2 & Acts 10 were never saved?

Again, you might want to rethink your sects false narratives.

 

[Ouch]

You keep assuming your conclusion & then arguing from it. I've already answered your question directly: YES! According to Scripture, I have received the Holy Spirit since I believed (Eph 1:13). You insist that "receiving the Holy Ghost" = speaking in tongues. Scripture doesn't support that notion as a salvation requirement.

What you really mean is: "FD, you haven’t spoken in tongues" (which BTW I've never said) therefore you can't be saved. That's your denomination’s definition, not the Bible's.

You're insistence that "receiving the Holy Ghost" = speaking in tongues. Scripture never cites that action as a salvation requirement.

I'll note just a couple (it's riddled with them) problems with your posts narrative

1 Cori 14:2 is about the gift of tongues in the church, not the new birth. Paul explicitly says not all speak in tongues (1 Cor 12:30). If tongues were required for salvation, Paul would never say that.

Eph 1:13 says believers are sealed with the Spirit when they believe. You’re trying to override Paul’s teaching with selective narrative events. That’s not how doctrine works.

You claim Acts 2, 10 & 19 support your "misguided mandatory tongues are necessary for salvation" doctrine. You're free not to accept the biblical definition unless it matches your denomination’s experience.

As for Acts 2, 8, 10 & 19. 4 special Church expansion events.

Acts 2, Salvations door opened to Jews 1st (Rom 1:16 & 2:10),

Acts 8, Samaritans (Jews that had intermarried/against Mosaic law. Jews viewed them as unclean & outside of covenant protections) Chapter 8 isn't about salvation. Its about the outward manifestation of the Spirit marking the inclusion of Samaritans into the church. They had already believed & been baptized. The Spirit "falling" was a Pentecost like Church expansion event. This actually disproves the idea that tongues are required for salvation. IS THAT WHY YOU LEFT THIS VERSE OUT?

Acts 10, Here God opens the door to salvation to Gentiles (Jews viewed them as unclean dogs, living outside of covenant seals). The Spirit falling, another Pentecost like outward manifestation of the Spirit marking the inclusion of Gentiles into the church.

Acts 19, disciples baptized by John. The Holy Spirit marking the inclusion Old Covenant "believers in Christ" brought into New Covenant.

ORDER OF SPECIAL NT/CHURCH INCLUSION HISTORICAL EVENTS

Passage - Believe - Baptized - Spirit received - Tongues - Hands laid

Acts 2 yes - after - Spirit falls 1st - Yes - No

Acts 8 yes - before - After apostles arrive - No - Yes

Acts 10 yes - spirit falls 1st - Before baptism - Yes - No

Acts 19 after hearing - after - After hands laid - Yes - Yes

Tongues in Acts a special event marking a new group entering the kingdom.

If tongues, water baptism or laying on of hands were required for salvation. Acts would show one consistent pattern. Instead, Acts gives 4 different sequences. These rituals that your sect requires for salvation aren't supported by scripture.

By GRACE are you SAVED thru FAITH & FAITH ALONE. NO rituals required.

None of 4 events cited say tongues are required for salvation, none of them say tongues equals receiving the Spirit.

If laying on of hands is required to receive the Holy Ghost. Then ALL the believers in Acts 2 & Acts 10 were never saved?

Again, you might want to rethink your sects false narratives.

As I said I'm just in the seed business.

You don't like the questions I asked?

I don't get into denominations.

I TRY to keep things simple with the FOUNDATION of being reborn ONLY.

JESUS SAID, John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

JESUS SAID, WE HAVE TO HAVE BOTH, BORN OF WATER AND OF SPIRIT.

NOT ME OR MY CHURCH!!!!

This is what happens when we are baptized in JESUS name.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

This is what happens when we are filled with the Holy Ghost,

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

JESUS and Peter BOTH CONFIRM when you are filled YOU WILL SPEAK IN TONGUES.

Peter,
Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

JESUS,

Mark 16:16-17
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

If JESUS and Peter are wrong then prove them wrong show me WHAT DO I HAVE TO DO TODAY TO BE SAVED.

 

[hornetguy]

Odd that I find myself agreeing with most of what each of you say....

Yes, baptism by immersion is a part of the process... (along with faith, through the grace of God), for forgiveness of sins, as an appeal to God for a clear, sinless conscience, and so that we can receive the Holy Spirit. There are other reasons, but these are the highlights...
All of the salvation stories, post resurrection, include baptism... which tells us plainly that this is what was taught to new converts..

Not every believer will speak in tongues.... Paul tells us that, very plainly. He even stated that he wished everyone could, but that was not the case. Tongues is the LEAST of the gifts of the Spirit, yet there are those that attempt to make them necessary, mandatory, to "prove" salvation for every believer... this is adding to what scripture plainly says, and is very dangerous spiritual ground to be walking upon.

 

[Ouch]

Odd that I find myself agreeing with most of what each of you say....

Yes, baptism by immersion is a part of the process... (along with faith, through the grace of God), for forgiveness of sins, as an appeal to God for a clear, sinless conscience, and so that we can receive the Holy Spirit. There are other reasons, but these are the highlights...
All of the salvation stories, post resurrection, include baptism... which tells us plainly that this is what was taught to new converts..

Not every believer will speak in tongues.... Paul tells us that, very plainly. He even stated that he wished everyone could, but that was not the case. Tongues is the LEAST of the gifts of the Spirit, yet there are those that attempt to make them necessary, mandatory, to "prove" salvation for every believer... this is adding to what scripture plainly says, and is very dangerous spiritual ground to be walking upon.

After noon, Sir.

Is this post adress to me?

I'm sure you notice I try to share HIS word and let JESUS do the talking, I bet that is why you agree, nothing to do with me.

If so can we look at HIS word.

JESUS says in John 3:5 we have to be born of water and of spirit.

In every case (Acts 2, 8, 10 and 19) were fokes received the message both baptism and when they were filled they spoke in tongues.

I will add, how in Acts 8 did they know they haven't receive the Holy Ghost after being baptized? They didn't speak in tongues so they sent for Peter and John.

JESUS says in Mark 16:17 they SHALL speak with new tongues.

I think when you're referring to Paul your referring to 1 Cor 12?

If so we need to understand Paul is speaking to one of the church's he started and he is expounding on the gift of the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthians 1,
1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

As you can tell by reading it with the Holy Ghost there are different diversities of gifts and not all get those gifts.

Notice he is referring to a church setting,

1 Cor 12: 28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

He is asking a question, will speak in tongues in church? implying not everyone will get that specific gift.

He DOES not say people who are filled with the spirit no all will speak in tongues.

IF HE DID, he would be contradicting what JESUS said in Mark 16:17.

GOD BLESS YOU.

 

[hornetguy]

JESUS says in Mark 16:17 they SHALL speak with new tongues.

As you likely know, anything past verse 8 is questionable as to whether it was part of the original manuscript. IF all those verses were original, why do we not have everyone handling deadly snakes, or drinking deadly poison, in order to show they have the Holy Spirit?

JESUS says in John 3:5 we have to be born of water and of spirit.

Yes, he did, after Cornelius spoke of his human birth, which we all know is preceded by the breaking of the amniotic waters... taken in that context, I believe Jesus was comparing the two births... yes we have to be humanly born, and we also will have to be spiritually born. I do not need this verse to emphasize baptism by immersion in water....there are many others that will do that. I could, of course, be wrong about that, but to me it is not necessary to prove the necessity of water baptism.

In every case (Acts 2, 8, 10 and 19) were fokes received the message both baptism and when they were filled they spoke in tongues.

When Paul regained his sight, after meeting Jesus on the road, what is the FIRST thing he did? And there is no mention of his speaking in tongues... although, he did later in his ministry.... he obviously was given that particular gift by the Spirit, as the Spirit does.... selectively.
When the Ethiopian eunuch was taught Jesus, and accepted him, what is the FIRST thing he did? There is no mention of his speaking in tongues afterward, even though he went on his way "rejoicing"....

He DOES not say people who are filled with the spirit no all will speak in tongues.

Disagree.... he specifically says this, when discussing gifts given us by the Spirit of God.... certainly all believers... He talked about how the church is like a body, and all of us have a part to play... He specifically stated that not everyone can speak in tongues... not everyone can be a teacher..etc...

 

[Ouch]

As you likely know, anything past verse 8 is questionable as to whether it was part of the original manuscript. IF all those verses were original, why do we not have everyone handling deadly snakes, or drinking deadly poison, in order to show they have the Holy Spirit?


Yes, he did, after Cornelius spoke of his human birth, which we all know is preceded by the breaking of the amniotic waters... taken in that context, I believe Jesus was comparing the two births... yes we have to be humanly born, and we also will have to be spiritually born. I do not need this verse to emphasize baptism by immersion in water....there are many others that will do that. I could, of course, be wrong about that, but to me it is not necessary to prove the necessity of water baptism.


When Paul regained his sight, after meeting Jesus on the road, what is the FIRST thing he did? And there is no mention of his speaking in tongues... although, he did later in his ministry.... he obviously was given that particular gift by the Spirit, as the Spirit does.... selectively.
When the Ethiopian eunuch was taught Jesus, and accepted him, what is the FIRST thing he did? There is no mention of his speaking in tongues afterward, even though he went on his way "rejoicing"....


Disagree.... he specifically says this, when discussing gifts given us by the Spirit of God.... certainly all believers... He talked about how the church is like a body, and all of us have a part to play... He specifically stated that not everyone can speak in tongues... not everyone can be a teacher..etc...

No way could a perons be reborn unless they were born in the first place.

No idea how one would think JESUS is speaking of natural birth when HE was speaking to a old man.


Ok, but as I said Paul was speaking in a church setting.

Meaning not all will speak in tongues which would be interpreted by another in church.

 

[hornetguy]

No idea how one would think JESUS is speaking of natural birth when HE was speaking to a old man.

Because that was Nicodemus' question.... how can a man be born again, when he is old? Can he re-enter his mother's womb?
In context, Jesus answered his question... not only do you have to be born of water, but also of Spirit... in context...
like I said, I could be wrong, but it doesn't change the outcome.. there are many other verses that will confirm that water baptism is definitely needed/commanded for the salvation process.
A person must hear the story of Jesus' sacrifice for us, and believe it, and accept Jesus free gift of salvation (grace) and be baptized in water for forgiveness of his sins.... all of these events happened in every salvation story... with the exception of the thief on the cross... who Jesus said would be in paradise with him.... a very special, one time only event.

 

[Ouch]

Because that was Nicodemus' question.... how can a man be born again, when he is old? Can he re-enter his mother's womb?
In context, Jesus answered his question... not only do you have to be born of water, but also of Spirit... in context...
like I said, I could be wrong, but it doesn't change the outcome.. there are many other verses that will confirm that water baptism is definitely needed/commanded for the salvation process.
A person must hear the story of Jesus' sacrifice for us, and believe it, and accept Jesus free gift of salvation (grace) and be baptized in water for forgiveness of his sins.... all of these events happened in every salvation story... with the exception of the thief on the cross... who Jesus said would be in paradise with him.... a very special, one time only event.

AMEN, do you know why the thief didn't need to be?

 

[FlyingDove]

As I said I'm just in the seed business.

You don't like the questions I asked?

I don't get into denominations.

I TRY to keep things simple with the FOUNDATION of being reborn ONLY.

JESUS SAID, John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

JESUS SAID, WE HAVE TO HAVE BOTH, BORN OF WATER AND OF SPIRIT.

NOT ME OR MY CHURCH!!!!

This is what happens when we are baptized in JESUS name.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

This is what happens when we are filled with the Holy Ghost,

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

JESUS and Peter BOTH CONFIRM when you are filled YOU WILL SPEAK IN TONGUES.

Peter,
Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

JESUS,

Mark 16:16-17
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

If JESUS and Peter are wrong then prove them wrong show me WHAT DO I HAVE TO DO TODAY TO BE SAVED.

Acts only records 3 events where people receive the Holy Spirit & speak in tongues (Acts 2, Acts 10, Acts 19). Each a special (shared in detail in my last reply) major redemptive historical boundary: Jews, Gentiles, & disciples of John the Baptist.

Scripture records many more cases where people receive the Holy Spirit with no tongues at all!

Simeon in Luke (2:25).

Elizabeth (Lk 2:41)

Zechariah (Lk:2:67)

Samaritans (Acts 8:17)

The Jerusalem church (Acts 4),

The Antioch disciples (Acts 13),

Barnabas (Acts 11),

The apostles in John 20:22 JESUS HIMSELF BREATHES ON THE THEM & NO TOBGUES!!!

THIS NEXT ONE IS A BIG PROBLEM FOR YOUR PROMOTED NARRATIVE:

Paul Acts 9:17 & 18 Paul is filled with the H/S/NO TONGUES! Then he's baptized AFTER he's filled with the H.S. In Acts 2:38 Your sects center piece/HOLY GRAIL say's be BAPTIZED then YOU SHALL RECEIVE the H/S!

Clearly steaking in tongues isn't "universal evidence" of one's salvation. Instead scripture rarely records it. The consistent pattern of Scripture is that people receive the Spirit with or without tongues, which means tongues can't be/ISN'T a required sign for one to receive the Holy Spirit.

You REALLY need to rethink this false (according to scripture) narrative you continue to propagate.

Find here 4 writers & many verses where scripture promotes: Saved By GRACE thru FAITH. No rituals needed"
People saved by FAITH ALONE (no baptism, no tongues)

Jn 3:16 Whoever believes has eternal life.

Jn 3:36 He who believes has everlasting life.

Jn 5:24 Whoever hears and believes has eternal life and has passed from death to life.

Jn 6:40 Everyone who believes has eternal life.

Jn 6:47 He who believes has eternal life.

Jn 7:38–39 Those who believe receive the Spirit.

Jn 11:25–26 Whoever believes will live and never die.

Acts 10:43 Whoever believes receives forgiveness of sins.

Acts 13:38–39 Everyone who believes is justified

Acts 15:9–11 Hearts purified by faith, saved by grace > not rituals.

Rom 1:16 Salvation to everyone who believes.

Rom 3:22–26 Righteousness through faith; justified by faith.

Rom 4:3–8 Abraham justified by faith, not works.

Rom 4:24 Righteousness imputed to those who believe.

Rom 5:1 Justified by faith, we have peace with God.

Rom 10:9–13 Confess and believe = saved. No baptism/No tongues.

Gals 2:16 Justified by faith, not works

Gal 3:2 Received the Spirit by hearing with faith, not works.

Gal 3:14 We receive the Spirit through faith.

Eph 1:13 You believed & you were sealed with the Spirit.

Eph 2:8–9 Saved by grace through faith, not works.

Phil 3:9 Righteousness through faith, not law.

1 Tim 1:16 Eternal life to those who believe.

1 Jn 5:1 Whoever believes is born of God.

1 Jn 5:10–13 You have eternal life because you believe.

People saved with NO mention of baptism at all

Luke 7:48–50 The sinful woman - "Your faith has saved you."

Luke 18:13–14 The tax collector - He went home justified by faith.

Luke 23:42–43 Thief on the cross - Saved with no baptism, no tongues, no ritual.

 

[hornetguy]

AMEN, do you know why the thief didn't need to be?

First off, baptism to receive the Spirit had not been implemented at that time. That didn't come about until after his death and resurrection...
Secondly, Jesus has the authority to save anyone at any time, under any circumstances.

 

[lrs68]

Acts only records 3 events where people receive the Holy Spirit & speak in tongues (Acts 2, Acts 10, Acts 19). Each a special (shared in detail in my last reply) major redemptive historical boundary: Jews, Gentiles, & disciples of John the Baptist.

Scripture records many more cases where people receive the Holy Spirit with no tongues at all!

Simeon in Luke (2:25).

Elizabeth (Lk 2:41)

Zechariah (Lk:2:67)

Samaritans (Acts 8:17)

The Jerusalem church (Acts 4),

The Antioch disciples (Acts 13),

Barnabas (Acts 11),

The apostles in John 20:22 JESUS HIMSELF BREATHES ON THE THEM & NO TOBGUES!!!

THIS NEXT ONE IS A BIG PROBLEM FOR YOUR PROMOTED NARRATIVE:

Paul Acts 9:17 & 18 Paul is filled with the H/S/NO TONGUES! Then he's baptized AFTER he's filled with the H.S. In Acts 2:38 Your sects center piece/HOLY GRAIL say's be BAPTIZED then YOU SHALL RECEIVE the H/S!

Clearly steaking in tongues isn't "universal evidence" of one's salvation. Instead scripture rarely records it. The consistent pattern of Scripture is that people receive the Spirit with or without tongues, which means tongues can't be/ISN'T a required sign for one to receive the Holy Spirit.

You REALLY need to rethink this false (according to scripture) narrative you continue to propagate.

Find here 4 writers & many verses where scripture promotes: Saved By GRACE thru FAITH. No rituals needed"
People saved by FAITH ALONE (no baptism, no tongues)

Jn 3:16 Whoever believes has eternal life.

Jn 3:36 He who believes has everlasting life.

Jn 5:24 Whoever hears and believes has eternal life and has passed from death to life.

Jn 6:40 Everyone who believes has eternal life.

Jn 6:47 He who believes has eternal life.

Jn 7:38–39 Those who believe receive the Spirit.

Jn 11:25–26 Whoever believes will live and never die.

Acts 10:43 Whoever believes receives forgiveness of sins.

Acts 13:38–39 Everyone who believes is justified

Acts 15:9–11 Hearts purified by faith, saved by grace > not rituals.

Rom 1:16 Salvation to everyone who believes.

Rom 3:22–26 Righteousness through faith; justified by faith.

Rom 4:3–8 Abraham justified by faith, not works.

Rom 4:24 Righteousness imputed to those who believe.

Rom 5:1 Justified by faith, we have peace with God.

Rom 10:9–13 Confess and believe = saved. No baptism/No tongues.

Gals 2:16 Justified by faith, not works

Gal 3:2 Received the Spirit by hearing with faith, not works.

Gal 3:14 We receive the Spirit through faith.

Eph 1:13 You believed & you were sealed with the Spirit.

Eph 2:8–9 Saved by grace through faith, not works.

Phil 3:9 Righteousness through faith, not law.

1 Tim 1:16 Eternal life to those who believe.

1 Jn 5:1 Whoever believes is born of God.

1 Jn 5:10–13 You have eternal life because you believe.

People saved with NO mention of baptism at all

Luke 7:48–50 The sinful woman - "Your faith has saved you."

Luke 18:13–14 The tax collector - He went home justified by faith.

Luke 23:42–43 Thief on the cross - Saved with no baptism, no tongues, no ritual.

Most of your Scripture references happened before the Holy Ghost was sent to humanity. I am not disagreeing with what you stated but rather pointing out you are using proofs that took place before the Upper Room experience.

 

[Mem]

I'm starting to entertain another possibility for ἐπερώτημα. Instead of it being something originating from us, it is God's response to our entering into covenant relationship and responsibilities through the doorway of baptism. In other words, it's a judicial decision or declaration that remits our sins and cleanses our conscience. Daniel 4:17 (LXX) seems to convey this sense that it is a divine decree or edict from above.

The matter is by the decree of the watcher, and the response (ἐπερώτημα) is a word of the holy ones; that the living may known that the Lord is most high over the kingdom of men, and he will give it to whomsoever he shall please, and will set up over it that which is set at nought of men. Daniel 4:17​

​

The Theological Lexicon of the New Testament has the most interesting explanation I've found

I've noted something interesting while looking up the Strong's Lexicon of John 11:26.

Interesting. Thanks for posting.



FWIW, it's these types of research and exegetical work that are most meaningful IMO. They are getting down to the depths of what the words and phrases of Scripture are really saying.



What's also interesting is how it seems to conflict with part of the conclusion of the article I just posted to @Mem - specifically the part about the timing of salvation as related to baptism.

Jesus comforts Martha in concern to her brother's death, "...everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" and what jumped out at me of the explanation of believe was credit; by implication, to entrust.
Then afterward, while examining the context of John 11, I noted the footnote 33d 'Or He was indignant in spirit; similarly in verse 38' speaking in reference to Jesus 'moved in spirit and deeply troubled John 11:33 and John 11:38 This is exactly the sense I had of Jesus' grief as "Jesus wept (John 11:35), and I now especially note Jesus' reply to Martha in John 11:40, "Did I not tell you....?" even after she answered him, "Yes, Lord...I believe...(John 11:27)" after His initial question posed at John 11:26.

And I thought, the Lord of the resurrection was with them, and they offered Him no credit, i.e. faith.

Although I think that my inclination to regard faith as obedience does have some tension with your understanding of faith/obedience, and it seems is more noticeable when view in terms of credit. Namely, when the Lord asks, "Do you credit this as truth?" and we answer, "Yes, Lord" but it causes Him grief, it is not, at that time exactly, accounted as righteousness.

The thief, on the other hand, was credited 'that day.'

 

[studier]

I've noted something interesting while looking up the Strong's Lexicon of John 11:26.



Jesus comforts Martha in concern to her brother's death, "...everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" and what jumped out at me of the explanation of believe was credit; by implication, to entrust.
Then afterward, while examining the context of John 11, I noted the footnote 33d 'Or He was indignant in spirit; similarly in verse 38' speaking in reference to Jesus 'moved in spirit and deeply troubled John 11:33 and John 11:38 This is exactly the sense I had of Jesus' grief as "Jesus wept (John 11:35), and I now especially note Jesus' reply to Martha in John 11:40, "Did I not tell you....?" even after she answered him, "Yes, Lord...I believe...(John 11:27)" after His initial question posed at John 11:26.

And I thought, the Lord of the resurrection was with them, and they offered Him no credit, i.e. faith.

Although I think that my inclination to regard faith as obedience does have some tension with your understanding of faith/obedience, and it seems is more noticeable when view in terms of credit. Namely, when the Lord asks, "Do you credit this as truth?" and we answer, "Yes, Lord" but it causes Him grief, it is not, at that time exactly, accounted as righteousness.

The thief, on the other hand, was credited 'that day.'

It's these types of wrestling with words that I've found interesting and at times enlightening. Lexically a faith was also a guaranty which I recall experimenting with for a while in parts of Scripture. And we can see in the work on eperotema how that one writing found the noun version through lexical work that provided the concept of a pledge. It's not well understood, but there is still much work being done by researchers and translators and at least one group I know of that is scouring the globe looking for more manuscripts. It wasn't that long ago as I recall that an excavation of a trash dump in the old world found a lot of old business receipts and such that added to our understanding of how the language was actually being used in every day life.

 

[Ouch]

Acts only records 3 events where people receive the Holy Spirit & speak in tongues (Acts 2, Acts 10, Acts 19). Each a special (shared in detail in my last reply) major redemptive historical boundary: Jews, Gentiles, & disciples of John the Baptist.

Scripture records many more cases where people receive the Holy Spirit with no tongues at all!

Simeon in Luke (2:25).

Elizabeth (Lk 2:41)

Zechariah (Lk:2:67)

Samaritans (Acts 8:17)

The Jerusalem church (Acts 4),

The Antioch disciples (Acts 13),

Barnabas (Acts 11),

The apostles in John 20:22 JESUS HIMSELF BREATHES ON THE THEM & NO TOBGUES!!!

THIS NEXT ONE IS A BIG PROBLEM FOR YOUR PROMOTED NARRATIVE:

Paul Acts 9:17 & 18 Paul is filled with the H/S/NO TONGUES! Then he's baptized AFTER he's filled with the H.S. In Acts 2:38 Your sects center piece/HOLY GRAIL say's be BAPTIZED then YOU SHALL RECEIVE the H/S!

Clearly steaking in tongues isn't "universal evidence" of one's salvation. Instead scripture rarely records it. The consistent pattern of Scripture is that people receive the Spirit with or without tongues, which means tongues can't be/ISN'T a required sign for one to receive the Holy Spirit.

You REALLY need to rethink this false (according to scripture) narrative you continue to propagate.

Find here 4 writers & many verses where scripture promotes: Saved By GRACE thru FAITH. No rituals needed"
People saved by FAITH ALONE (no baptism, no tongues)

Jn 3:16 Whoever believes has eternal life.

Jn 3:36 He who believes has everlasting life.

Jn 5:24 Whoever hears and believes has eternal life and has passed from death to life.

Jn 6:40 Everyone who believes has eternal life.

Jn 6:47 He who believes has eternal life.

Jn 7:38–39 Those who believe receive the Spirit.

Jn 11:25–26 Whoever believes will live and never die.

Acts 10:43 Whoever believes receives forgiveness of sins.

Acts 13:38–39 Everyone who believes is justified

Acts 15:9–11 Hearts purified by faith, saved by grace > not rituals.

Rom 1:16 Salvation to everyone who believes.

Rom 3:22–26 Righteousness through faith; justified by faith.

Rom 4:3–8 Abraham justified by faith, not works.

Rom 4:24 Righteousness imputed to those who believe.

Rom 5:1 Justified by faith, we have peace with God.

Rom 10:9–13 Confess and believe = saved. No baptism/No tongues.

Gals 2:16 Justified by faith, not works

Gal 3:2 Received the Spirit by hearing with faith, not works.

Gal 3:14 We receive the Spirit through faith.

Eph 1:13 You believed & you were sealed with the Spirit.

Eph 2:8–9 Saved by grace through faith, not works.

Phil 3:9 Righteousness through faith, not law.

1 Tim 1:16 Eternal life to those who believe.

1 Jn 5:1 Whoever believes is born of God.

1 Jn 5:10–13 You have eternal life because you believe.

People saved with NO mention of baptism at all

Luke 7:48–50 The sinful woman - "Your faith has saved you."

Luke 18:13–14 The tax collector - He went home justified by faith.

Luke 23:42–43 Thief on the cross - Saved with no baptism, no tongues, no ritual.

4 times examples on HOW to be reborn, how many examples do you need?

How many times does HIS word have to say it?

2 Corinthians 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

SO IT'S ESTABLISHED.

All of the verses below, can you show me where they were baptized in JESUS name and received the Holy Ghost. Do you want me to reply to each one?

For instance, John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

If you believe what JESUS said in John 3:16 then why not what HE said in John 3:5? BECAUSE if you don't notice John 3:16 it says WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM "SHOULD NOT PARRISH"

IT DOESN'T SAY WHO WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM IS SAVED.

So, IF YOU believe in HIM, HE says we have to be born of water and of spirit.

John 3:36 same thing, ETC.

Your walk is between you and HIM and when you stand in front of HIM it will be you and HIM face to face and HE will be using HIS rule book to judge you.

Why do you keep being up OT, like the Thief?

When the thief on the cross died, he died OT laws. Where people had to take a sacrifice to the high priests ones a year to have their sins forgiven GOD RULES.

JESUS is our high priest and he became our sacrifice our lamb.
When JESUS was on this earth and forgave sins as he wished like the thief.

JESUS preach app 3 years, died on the cross, buried and rose again. Then he ascended to Heaven to put his blood on the mercy seat.

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

He then returned to earth and was here app 40 days and ascended again commanding his disciples to wait because they will be filled with the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:3-4

He ascended the second time and this was the first message of how to be reborn.
Acts 2:38-39
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Since then until he returns again, we live in NT laws and how to be saved we need to repent, get baptized in JESUS name to get rid of our sins and receive the Holy Ghost like JESUS gave his disciples in Acts 2:4.

What happen to Acts 8?

Since you can't tell me what I have to do to be reborn can you tell me how Phillip knew they didn't received the Holy Ghost?

This has NOTHING to do with me or my natarive.

Again,
Since you can't tell me what I have to do to be reborn can you tell me how Phillip knew in Acts 8 that they didn't received the Holy Ghost?

 

[Ouch]

First off, baptism to receive the Spirit had not been implemented at that time. That didn't come about until after his death and resurrection...
Secondly, Jesus has the authority to save anyone at any time, under any circumstances.

Yes Sir, There was other cases where he forgave sins while he was here on earth.

When the thief on the cross died, he died OT laws. Where people had to take a sacrifice to the high priests ones a year to have their sins forgiven GOD RULES.

JESUS is our high priest and he became our sacrifice our lamb.
When JESUS was on this earth and forgave sins as he wished like the thief.

JESUS preach app 3 years, died on the cross, buried and rose again. Then he ascended to Heaven to put his blood on the mercy seat.

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

He then returned to earth and was here app 40 days and ascended again commanding his disciples to wait because they will be filled with the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:3-4

He ascended the second time and this was the first message of how to be reborn.
Acts 2:38-39
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Since then until he returns again, we live in NT laws and how to be saved we need to repent, get baptized in JESUS name to get rid of our sins and receive the Holy Ghost like JESUS gave his disciples in Acts 2:4.

I don't care how long we follow JESUS we can always learn, none of us will ever know it all and we should always be humble.

Through the Holy Ghost GOD shows us different things, that is why we are to lean love and learn from one and the other.

GOD BLESS YOU.

 

[FlyingDove]

Most of your Scripture references happened before the Holy Ghost was sent to humanity. I am not disagreeing with what you stated but rather pointing out you are using proofs that took place before the Upper Room experience.

Ok,
Find here 16 verses after Pentecost:
Acts 13:38–39, 15:9–11, Rom 1:16 3:22–26, 4:3–8, 4:24, 5:1, 10:9–13, Gals 2:16, 3:2, 3:14, Eph 1:13, 2:8–9, Phil 3:9, 1 Tim 1:16, 1 Jn 5:1, 1 Jn 5:10–13.

Find here (4) entire books teaching salvation with no baptism/tongues requirement:
Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, 1 John

Find here verses where the Lord Jesus Himself cites eternal life thru belief in Him alone, no rituals needed.

Luke 7:48–50, 10:20, 23:42–43, John 3:15,16,18, 5:24, 6:47, 7:37, 11,25-26

Seems like your reply implies pre‑Pentecost salvation doesn’t count.

Acts 2 Pentecost didn’t change the way salvation works. Salvation has always been by grace through faith.

Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David just to name a few. A sign (tongues) that appears rarely cannot be a requirement all the time.

Christ saves - Grace saves when mixes with faith. By GRACE are we SAVED thru FAITH. No ritual sequence & no formula.

Throughout scripture people are FAITH BASED SAVED before & after Acts 2 Pentecost & with & without tongues.

 

[Ouch]

Ok,
Find here 16 verses after Pentecost:
Acts 13:38–39, 15:9–11, Rom 1:16 3:22–26, 4:3–8, 4:24, 5:1, 10:9–13, Gals 2:16, 3:2, 3:14, Eph 1:13, 2:8–9, Phil 3:9, 1 Tim 1:16, 1 Jn 5:1, 1 Jn 5:10–13.

Find here (4) entire books teaching salvation with no baptism/tongues requirement:
Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, 1 John

Find here verses where the Lord Jesus Himself cites eternal life thru belief in Him alone, no rituals needed.

Luke 7:48–50, 10:20, 23:42–43, John 3:15,16,18, 5:24, 6:47, 7:37, 11,25-26

Seems like your reply implies pre‑Pentecost salvation doesn’t count.

Acts 2 Pentecost didn’t change the way salvation works. Salvation has always been by grace through faith.

Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David just to name a few. A sign (tongues) that appears rarely cannot be a requirement all the time.

Christ saves - Grace saves when mixes with faith. By GRACE are we SAVED thru FAITH. No ritual sequence & no formula.

Throughout scripture people are FAITH BASED SAVED before & after Acts 2 Pentecost & with & without tongues.

What did OT folks like Noah and Abraham have to do to remove there sins?

What do NT folks have to do to remove our sins?

 

[Ouch]

Ok,
Find here 16 verses after Pentecost:
Acts 13:38–39, 15:9–11, Rom 1:16 3:22–26, 4:3–8, 4:24, 5:1, 10:9–13, Gals 2:16, 3:2, 3:14, Eph 1:13, 2:8–9, Phil 3:9, 1 Tim 1:16, 1 Jn 5:1, 1 Jn 5:10–13.

Find here (4) entire books teaching salvation with no baptism/tongues requirement:
Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, 1 John

Find here verses where the Lord Jesus Himself cites eternal life thru belief in Him alone, no rituals needed.

Luke 7:48–50, 10:20, 23:42–43, John 3:15,16,18, 5:24, 6:47, 7:37, 11,25-26

Seems like your reply implies pre‑Pentecost salvation doesn’t count.

Acts 2 Pentecost didn’t change the way salvation works. Salvation has always been by grace through faith.

Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David just to name a few. A sign (tongues) that appears rarely cannot be a requirement all the time.

Christ saves - Grace saves when mixes with faith. By GRACE are we SAVED thru FAITH. No ritual sequence & no formula.

Throughout scripture people are FAITH BASED SAVED before & after Acts 2 Pentecost & with & without tongues.

Did you put me on ignore?

Why, don't know how to tell me how to be reborn?

 

[FlyingDove]

Did you put me on ignore?

Why, don't know how to tell me how to be reborn?

I've told you many times. It's sad you still don't know how.

 

[Ouch]

I've told you many times. It's sad you still don't know how.

So your calim we are saved by grace and by faith is true but thats just the begining.

You never told me what we must do to be saved?

Nothing, don't have to repent, don't have to get rid of our sins?

That is why I continue asking you!!