Romans 10:17, a courtroom haearing?
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No.
Romans 1:19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
This means God is accessible everywhere throughout all time. People are able to know He exists from what He has created. In turn, if they want to get to know Him further, He will lead them to Himself and to His gift of salvation.
B
Blue155
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Life is way too short to deal with someone who says they aren’t convinced, all while then saying they believe “it’s possible faith comes by “A” hearing…”
No.
Romans 1:19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
This means God is accessible everywhere throughout all time. People are able to know He exists from what He has created. In turn, if they want to get to know Him further, He will lead them to Himself and to His gift of salvation.
I agree with you.
But what about the questions I presented in the Op?
I was not in a courtroom when I heard the gospel for the second time. I was in a small workshop on a warship. The first time was at a Billy Graham crusade. Quite a contrast, me and my boss compared to tens of thousands and one man in the distance.
I don't know why you have to nitpick over words. My boss shared the gospel with me, I saw that I was a sinner headed for hell and I gladly accepted Jesus as my saviour. I know that I was born again that instant and that my sins were forgiven. The gospel is the power of God to save.
"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the "rhema" of Christ. I did not know that at the time. I knew nothing of the Bible except typical Sunday school stories. I did not study Greek or Hebrew in order to be saved.
My story has been repeated countless times in most countries for 2,000 years. I don't know what you are trying to achieve, but it's not working on me.
My Op is kind of focusing on when Gods word wasn't available to everyone.
But you made your point, thanks.
What about it? Are you thinking about how God was able to reach anyone before the Bible came to be?
Isaiah 55:10-11
10 As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
This shows that God can reach anyone even before the 66 books of the Bible came to be. How do you think Noah with his family survived the Flood?
What about it? Are you thinking about how God was able to reach anyone before the Bible came to be?
Isaiah 55:10-11
10 As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
This shows that God can reach anyone even before the 66 books of the Bible came to be. How do you think Noah with his family survived the Flood
Yes exactly!
Is it a requirement for the called out ones to have previous knowledge of Jesus and His word for God to respond with what I increases our faith. Primarily at the beginning of the salvation process.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
If a person has not heard the word of God how would they know the truth.
How would they know about Jesus.
For they will not figure it out on their own.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.
Creation testifies of a higher power and His attributes which one of them is love for He provided food, and the means to make clothing and shelter.
And testifies of the 2 greatest laws love God and love people so the world is without excuse.
God is a fair God and will not condemn people who have not heard.
But they will be judged on creation believing in a higher power who is love and not offending people.
For love works no ill towards their neighbor therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
And asking God for forgiveness if they do and if anything is amiss.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Those that have not heard and measure up cannot be with Jesus during the millennial reign for they did not know about Him.
But they can be saved after it at the judgment.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
If a person has not heard the word of God how would they know the truth.
How would they know about Jesus.
For they will not figure it out on their own.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.
Creation testifies of a higher power and His attributes which one of them is love for He provided food, and the means to make clothing and shelter.
And testifies of the 2 greatest laws love God and love people so the world is without excuse.
God is a fair God and will not condemn people who have not heard.
But they will be judged on creation believing in a higher power who is love and not offending people.
For love works no ill towards their neighbor therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
And asking God for forgiveness if they do and if anything is amiss.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Those that have not heard and measure up cannot be with Jesus during the millennial reign for they did not know about Him.
But they can be saved after it at the judgment.
You make some good points. But your building some of your points on the mistranslated word "believe " which takes away a little. Believing and a surrendered life are two different things.
If I'm called out by the Father and I respond by personally surrendering my life to Him and living a life inspired by such surrender, knowing Jesus yet wouldn't be a deal breaker. As long as i continue to respond correctly with a surrendered life, the rest would be up to the Father to grow, maintain, and finish.
Remember, I'm highlighting the period of time before Gods word was available to everyone.
And like you stated, different time and different states of being of the called out ones can give it all a different context.
Having said this you've still made some points that can't be overlooked. Thank you.
What is so hard to understand?
God shows all people that He exists from what He has made:
Romans 1:19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
This shows that man can know God exists and get to know Him personally and learn from Him, if they choose to:
John 6:45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
This shows that God the Father is willing to teach anyone and everyone. And the ones that do learn from Him, He guides to Jesus for salvation.
It's not rocket science.
What is so hard to understand?
God shows all people that He exists from what He has made:
Romans 1:19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
This shows that man can know God exists and get to know Him personally and learn from Him, if they choose to:
John 6:45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
This shows that God the Father is willing to teach anyone and everyone. And the ones that do learn from Him, He guides to Jesus for salvation.
It's not rocket science.
Just to clarify, you don't accept what Rom.10:17 states on its face? The way I leaned in the Op?
Lightbulb just went off.
Rom.10:17 uses the Greek word Rhema, which means a divine message. It doesn't use the word euaggelion, which is word they would have used for the good news or the knowledge of Christ.
That's you tablet. Nice one!
I readily accept what Romans 10:17 states on its face. You're just being pedantic.
Sorry for boring you.
I'm going to make some final understandings concerning Rom.10:17.
Up front, I think to look at the word "hearing" as a literal courtroom hearing takes it to far. But, two things that have to be part of the understanding is, a decision is always made. And, we need to compare it to a courtroom hearing.
Here is a breakdown of the important words in Rom. 10:17.
A) "faith"= the noun pistis in the Greek. Defined as "to be persuaded, reliance upon, committ to, be committed unto."
B) "hearing" = used twice. Akoe in the Greek. Defined as, "the receiving of a message, a report, ears, rumor. "
C) "Word" used once, Rhema in the Greek, defined as "a divine utterance or message or instruction. "
D) "God" = theos in the Greek, defined as "supreme deity. "
Here are some facts to keep in mind before we make a final translation.
1) the word faith isn't about "believing " in something. It's about commitment, reliance upon something, to be committed to something.
2) the word "hearing" in this verse is required to make a decision about what's being heard, like in a courtroom hearing.
3) "word" is Rhema, not logos. So this is specifying a divine message, utterance, or instruction. If the "gospel" was the intended communication, the Greek word "euaggelion" would have been used.
4) from who? The verse uses the word theos which is from the supreme deity.
5) the words "come and is" are added by the translators. I will use is in my final translation.
So for study and understanding purposes, here is how Rom.10:17 should be understood.
"So then faith (a commitment to God) is by hearing (the receiving of a message), and hearing (the receiving of a message) by the word (by a divine message or instruction) of God (the supreme deity)."
With the definitions.
" a commitment to God is by a decision made from receiving a message, a decision made from receiving a message by the divine instruction of the Father or the trinity."
Final thoughts.
I think Rom.10:17 is talking more about the call of the Father here than hearing and believing in Gods word as we are understanding it today. And that's not to say that God could use His word as we understand it today to call people out, today, not back in history when Gods word wasn't available to most people.
Up front, I think to look at the word "hearing" as a literal courtroom hearing takes it to far. But, two things that have to be part of the understanding is, a decision is always made. And, we need to compare it to a courtroom hearing.
Here is a breakdown of the important words in Rom. 10:17.
A) "faith"= the noun pistis in the Greek. Defined as "to be persuaded, reliance upon, committ to, be committed unto."
B) "hearing" = used twice. Akoe in the Greek. Defined as, "the receiving of a message, a report, ears, rumor. "
C) "Word" used once, Rhema in the Greek, defined as "a divine utterance or message or instruction. "
D) "God" = theos in the Greek, defined as "supreme deity. "
Here are some facts to keep in mind before we make a final translation.
1) the word faith isn't about "believing " in something. It's about commitment, reliance upon something, to be committed to something.
2) the word "hearing" in this verse is required to make a decision about what's being heard, like in a courtroom hearing.
3) "word" is Rhema, not logos. So this is specifying a divine message, utterance, or instruction. If the "gospel" was the intended communication, the Greek word "euaggelion" would have been used.
4) from who? The verse uses the word theos which is from the supreme deity.
5) the words "come and is" are added by the translators. I will use is in my final translation.
So for study and understanding purposes, here is how Rom.10:17 should be understood.
"So then faith (a commitment to God) is by hearing (the receiving of a message), and hearing (the receiving of a message) by the word (by a divine message or instruction) of God (the supreme deity)."
With the definitions.
" a commitment to God is by a decision made from receiving a message, a decision made from receiving a message by the divine instruction of the Father or the trinity."
Final thoughts.
I think Rom.10:17 is talking more about the call of the Father here than hearing and believing in Gods word as we are understanding it today. And that's not to say that God could use His word as we understand it today to call people out, today, not back in history when Gods word wasn't available to most people.
Look at the context of what Paul’s talking about that usually solves any issues
“For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:12-17 KJV
if a person doesn’t hear the gospel about Jesus they could never believe it and never call out to him in faith . Think back to the great commission it was needed for the gospel to be preached because you can’t believe something you have never heard about .
you can’t possibly believe “ Jesus the son of God died for my sins “ until someone preaches that message to you . He’s simply saying faith comes by hearing the message of Christ Jesus .
the gospel is a word from God that needs to be preached , so it can be heard , so people can believe it .
but if a person never heard about Jesus they couldn’t believe in him they wouldn’t have the right faith
THE WORD "BELIEVE" IS A MISTRANSLATION!!!!
USING IT AS YOUR PREMISE FOR ANYTHING IS ERROR!