Jesus and Paul, not Versus

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That seems to contradict what Peter actually said:

Acts 2:38 — Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The "for" in this grammatical construct from the Greek speaks directly to the purpose for the water baptism. In other words, when one was able to strive toward obedience to Peter's command to be water baptized FOR the remission of sins, choosing to NOT obey that command would be a matter of rejecting the remission of sins, which would not bode well for that individual.

Please explain further your position on this element that Paul nowhere commanded for the remission of sins.

Thanks

MM

Acts 2:38 doesn't stand alone. The condition for receiving eternal life is belief on the Lord Jesus Christ. So being baptized 'for' the remission of sins is being water baptized because you have previously believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Compare with this:

John 6:40 KJV
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
 
Acts 2:38 doesn't stand alone. The condition for receiving eternal life is belief on the Lord Jesus Christ. So being baptized 'for' the remission of sins is being water baptized because you have previously believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Compare with this:

John 6:40 KJV
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I agree that one will not go to be baptized if they first do not have faith, but Israel was still commanded to be baptized FOR the remission of their sins. Imagine with me someone telling Moses, "Yeah, I understand you were given the Law, but I choose to not follow you and just go with God and what He commanded of Abraham befor you." In both dispensations faith was indeed the foundation, but ignoring all the elements given to the specific people at the specific time, that would be disastrous for that or those individuals.

So, if you woulld, what do you suppose would happen to any individual Israelite who refused to be water baptized according to Peter's instructions to them in Acts 2:38? Would their sins have been remitted? Could they disregard his command to be water baptized because of their already existent faith?

Thanks

MM
 
Any time works is required as the operative validation for faith, that is works-based. Many of usnwho were and are of Israel knew we were not saved by the Law and works of the Law. We understood that we were required to demonstrate our faith through attempts at perfect obedidnce to the works requirements. Peter continued that requirement through the work of water baptism in Acts 2:38. Yes, water baptism is a work because one has to put forth effort to be baptized. Faith alone requires no work of effort through our body, but is an inner change from disbelief.

To say that the Kingdom Gospel was not works-based is like saying one got to the grocery store to get food for survival without any work of effort. James made it clear that works were absolutely required to establish one's faith under the Kingdom Gospel preached to Israel.

MM
Works can be done for a variety of reasons, so it is important to recognize that the Bible can speak against being required to do works for incorrect reasons without speaking against being required to do them for correct reasons. While Paul denied in Romans 4:1-5 that we can earn our righteousness as the result of our works, he also affirmed in Romans 2:13 that only the doers of the law will be declared righteous, so there is a reason why our righteousness requires us to choose to be a doer of the law other than in order to earn it as the result, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works also upholds God’s law (Romans 3:28-31).

A couple a can alone apart from the company of others while not being alone apart from the company of each other, so someone can be alone and not alone at the same time in different senses. The sense that we are declared righteous by faith alone is the sense that there are no works that we are required to have done first in order to become righteous as the result (works based salvation ), but is not the sense of not upholding God’s law. Luther said that an idle faith is not a justifying faith, so his position of justification by faith alone does not does not mean that that the involvement of any works is works based salvation. In Titus 2:11-13, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so doing those works in obedience to God’s law has absolutely nothing to do with trying to be good enough to earn our salvation (works based salvation), but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is part of the content of His gift of salvation.

We embody what we believe to be true about God through our works, such as with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith through his works, so everyone who is a doer of the same works as James has faith in Jesus. In other words, the way to believe in God is by embodying His likeness through being a doer of His character traits. For example, by being a doer of good works in obedience to God’s law we are embodying God’s goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by embodying God’s goodness we are also expressing the belief that God is good. Likewise, the way to believe that God is compassionate is by being compassionate (Luke 6:36), the way to believe that God is holy is by being a doer of His instructions for how to be holy as He is holy (1 Peter 1:16), and so forth. The is exactly the same as the way to believe in the Son, who is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to God’s law. This is also why there are many verses that connect our faith in God with our obedience to Him and why faith without works is dead.

God has graciously given His law to govern the conduct of the citizens of His Kingdom, so the Gospel of the Kingdom/Grace certainly involves doing works, but not for the purposes of earning our entrance.
 
Personally, I don't want to be in the Kingdom because I would have to be an unbeliever right now, survive through the horrors of the tribulation to become a believer to THEN enter into that Kingdom. No thanks. You may not believe in the rapture, but I do. If you want to stay here, then go for it. Not me.

MM
How does that interact with what I said in the post that you were responding to?
 
Works can be done for a variety of reasons, so it is important to recognize that the Bible can speak against being required to do works for incorrect reasons without speaking against being required to do them for correct reasons. While Paul denied in Romans 4:1-5 that we can earn our righteousness as the result of our works, he also affirmed in Romans 2:13 that only the doers of the law will be declared righteous, so there is a reason why our righteousness requires us to choose to be a doer of the law other than in order to earn it as the result, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works also upholds God’s law (Romans 3:28-31).

So, the question is: Who apart from Christ has ever been a doer of the Law?

Paul wasn't promoting adherence to the Mocaic Law. He fashioned his dissertation in the direction of doing good works NOT as the means to salvation, but unto reward of treasure in Heaven and blessings to others...expansively speaking.

MM
 
In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so that doesn't leave room to interpreted Philippians 3:8 as saying that we should focus on knowing Christ instead of being workers of lawfulness. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, so the goal of the Mosaic Law is to teach us how to know God and Jesus, which is His gift of eternal life (John 17:3). Paul had been obeying the Mosaic Law, but not while being focused on knowing Christ, so he had been missing the whole goal of the law, and that is what he counted as rubbish.

God revealed God to Saul, Saul became Paul got taught new from God first. Then, Paul came to writing truth of God's love and mercy for us all. That he expresses being under Law he was lost. Saw to give up being under Law to win Christ, Winning Christ wins Father
To love all in mercy and truth as given him first John 13:34 and is for us all to have personal relationships with Father and Son first. Then one, anyone in belief can love neighbor truthfully, securely and uprightly, not of flesh trying to do it anymore.
thanks
 
How does that interact with what I said in the post that you were responding to?

You referenced passages spoken to Israel in relation to the Kingdom of Heaven, and I was showing that we of the body of Christ aren't destined for that place and time, so the correlation isn't realistic to us today.

It was also for the benefit of others who read without much comment.

MM
 
I agree that one will not go to be baptized if they first do not have faith, but Israel was still commanded to be baptized FOR the remission of their sins. Imagine with me someone telling Moses, "Yeah, I understand you were given the Law, but I choose to not follow you and just go with God and what He commanded of Abraham befor you." In both dispensations faith was indeed the foundation, but ignoring all the elements given to the specific people at the specific time, that would be disastrous for that or those individuals.

So, if you woulld, what do you suppose would happen to any individual Israelite who refused to be water baptized according to Peter's instructions to them in Acts 2:38? Would their sins have been remitted? Could they disregard his command to be water baptized because of their already existent faith?

Thanks

MM

They would not HAVE to be water baptized, but everyone recorded did..because of their love for Jesus
 
They would not HAVE to be water baptized, but everyone recorded did..because of their love for Jesus

For the remission of their sins, to be saved, they did indeed have to be baptized...but only if they wanted slavation.

That is jot required of us today.

MM
 
So, the question is: Who apart from Christ has ever been a doer of the Law?

Paul wasn't promoting adherence to the Mocaic Law. He fashioned his dissertation in the direction of doing good works NOT as the means to salvation, but unto reward of treasure in Heaven and blessings to others...expansively speaking.

MM
Countless people have been doers of the law, such as those in Joshua 22:1-3, Luke 1:5-6, Revelation 14:12, and Revelation 22:14. Paul said that only the doers of the law will be justified and that our faith upholds the law, so he was indeed promoting adherence to it. Again, obeying the Mosaic Law has nothing to do with trying to earn our salvation, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of it is part of the content of His gift of salvation.

You referenced passages spoken to Israel in relation to the Kingdom of Heaven, and I was showing that we of the body of Christ aren't destined for that place and time, so the correlation isn't realistic to us today.

It was also for the benefit of others who read without much comment.

MM
Jesus commissioned his disciples to spread the Gospel of the Kingdom to the Gentiles, which Paul also spread. I didn't say anything about the rapture.
 
God revealed God to Saul, Saul became Paul got taught new from God first. Then, Paul came to writing truth of God's love and mercy for us all. That he expresses being under Law he was lost. Saw to give up being under Law to win Christ, Winning Christ wins Father
To love all in mercy and truth as given him first John 13:34 and is for us all to have personal relationships with Father and Son first. Then one, anyone in belief can love neighbor truthfully, securely and uprightly, not of flesh trying to do it anymore.
thanks
Again, Jesus saying that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them does not leave room to interpret Philippians as saying we should knew Jesus instead of being workers of lawfulness. Paul was not giving up being under the Law of God, but rather he continued to be a worker of lawfulness. God's law is truth (Psalm 119:142), mercy is what of the weightier matters of the law (Matthew 23:23), Gods law is the way to have an intimate relationship with Him (Exodus 33:13), and everything in the law is in regard to how to love (Matthew 22:36-40), so that isn't don't something other than being under God's law.
 
Countless people have been doers of the law, such as those in Joshua 22:1-3, Luke 1:5-6, Revelation 14:12, and Revelation 22:14. Paul said that only the doers of the law will be justified and that our faith upholds the law, so he was indeed promoting adherence to it. Again, obeying the Mosaic Law has nothing to do with trying to earn our salvation, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of it is part of the content of His gift of salvation.


Jesus commissioned his disciples to spread the Gospel of the Kingdom to the Gentiles, which Paul also spread. I didn't say anything about the rapture.

My question hinged upon the other member's meaning...what level of being a doer Paul really meant in what he said because Paul also said this in relation to the Law:

Romans 3:20 — Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:28 — Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Galatians 2:16 — Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:11 — But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Galatians 3:24 — Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Sorry, I don't mean to belabor the point, but this shows that being a doer of the Law has no bearing whatsoever upon salvation. Justification is achieved only through faith in Christ Jesus who alone was a DOER of the Law at the level of justification unto salvatio...not that He needed it. We are saved ONLY by grace through faith, not through trying to be doers of the Law and the deeds of the Law. That was Paul's point as well as mine.

As to Jesus allegedly commissioning the twelve to spread the Kingdom Gospel to the Gentiles, let's look at how they understood the command to go and preach to every nation:

Acts 11:19 — Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

This is consistent with Jesus' earlier commandment to the apostles contrary to the overly-simplistic interpretation many perpetrate upon certain verses recounting the Lord's instructions at His ascention:

Matthew 10:5 — These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

So, dare we allow scripture to interpret scripture, it would seem that every creature was actually every Israelite scattered abroad in every nation, given that, to Jesus, Gentiles were dogs at the time of His earthly ministrythat He never changed until the fall of Israel at the stoning of Stephen:

Matthew 15:26 — But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

The Canaanite woman was seeking the ministry of His miracle working, and Jesus ignored her entirely at the first until she worshipped Him and demonstrated her faith in Him to partake of the crumbs of the blessings meant only for Israel falling to the Gentiles through faith alone...at that time.

So, as is the practice of many in ignoring what ALL of scripture has to say on a topic, I was simply pointing out how being doers of the Law was and is limited to rewards for good works and deeds, treasure stored up in Heaven, not some sort od resume for salvation as some seem to believe contrary to scriptures.

MM
 
My question hinged upon the other member's meaning...what level of being a doer Paul really meant in what he said because Paul also said this in relation to the Law:

Romans 3:20 — Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:28 — Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Galatians 2:16 — Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:11 — But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Galatians 3:24 — Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Sorry, I don't mean to belabor the point, but this shows that being a doer of the Law has no bearing whatsoever upon salvation. Justification is achieved only through faith in Christ Jesus who alone was a DOER of the Law at the level of justification unto salvatio...not that He needed it. We are saved ONLY by grace through faith, not through trying to be doers of the Law and the deeds of the Law. That was Paul's point as well as mine.

As to Jesus allegedly commissioning the twelve to spread the Kingdom Gospel to the Gentiles, let's look at how they understood the command to go and preach to every nation:

Acts 11:19 — Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

This is consistent with Jesus' earlier commandment to the apostles contrary to the overly-simplistic interpretation many perpetrate upon certain verses recounting the Lord's instructions at His ascention:

Matthew 10:5 — These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

So, dare we allow scripture to interpret scripture, it would seem that every creature was actually every Israelite scattered abroad in every nation, given that, to Jesus, Gentiles were dogs at the time of His earthly ministrythat He never changed until the fall of Israel at the stoning of Stephen:

Matthew 15:26 — But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

The Canaanite woman was seeking the ministry of His miracle working, and Jesus ignored her entirely at the first until she worshipped Him and demonstrated her faith in Him to partake of the crumbs of the blessings meant only for Israel falling to the Gentiles through faith alone...at that time.

So, as is the practice of many in ignoring what ALL of scripture has to say on a topic, I was simply pointing out how being doers of the Law was and is limited to rewards for good works and deeds, treasure stored up in Heaven, not some sort od resume for salvation as some seem to believe contrary to scriptures.

MM

Re: "...being a doer of the Law has no bearing whatsoever upon salvation. Justification is achieved only through faith in Christ Jesus who alone was a DOER of the Law at the level of justification unto salvation...not that He needed it. We are saved ONLY by grace through faith, not through trying to be doers of the Law and the deeds of the Law. That was Paul's point as well as mine."

And a good point it is although it needs some clarification in order to avoid antinomianism.
We are saved via faith, not works/doing the Law per Eph. 2:8-9 (conversion),
but Eph. 2:10 indicates that we continue to be saved as we do godly/loving works.,
as both Paul (in Gal. 5:6) and James (in Jam. 2:17-18) indicate (sanctification).

There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace or motivates good works while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 2Cor. 5:7), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime (Rom. 1:17).
IOW, the ability to do good works as well as have saving faith are both due to God’s grace.
 
View attachment 283475

Some may ask, "Why focus on the differences?" It's not so much the differences as it is what is relevant for us today. The Messianic Jews in Jerusalem remained zealous of the Law, and when they were dispersed out into the world because of the severe persecutions, they preached ONLY to fellow Jews, not Gentiles [although Peter did preach to a small hand full of Gentiles].

Acts 11:19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

Messianic Jews stood soundly upon the Law and the continued requirement for adherence to the Mosaic Law under the watchful eyes of the tweleve apostles. Gentiles did not. Gentiles were never given the Law nor commanded to follow the Mosaic Law as was Israel, which was God's priesthood on this earth until her fall and the coming down of the middle wall of partition.

Some have asked WHY the Lord would deal differently with Israel-only compared to Gentiles and Jews as the body of Christ today; which was based upon the coming down of that middle wall of partition. Given that there was a wall, that clearly shows to us two distinct groupings; with Jews on one side and Gentiles on the other, which no longer is the case today. Dare we give this some thought, combining two radically different groups, one of which Jesus referred to as "dogs" when speaking of the "children's bread," that distinction is no longer valid today, which gives to us the beginnings of an understanding as to why the Lord changed His dealings with mankind and the gospel message going from water baptism for remission of sins to saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves, but a GIFT of God to us all...Jews and Gentiles.

What have your studies shown to you. Do you think the effort for water baptism isn't a work or effort on our part as was required under the Kingdom Gospel? Do you think your sins are remitted today on the basis of your effort for water baptism? Some have claimed that wasn't a work of effort on their part, but I have grave doubts someone carried them down into the water from an easy chair or a pew.

Thoughts about the chart differences and other items in this post?

MM


MM, The first problem is the claim that the apostles in Jerusalem preached only to Jews as a rule or as God’s permanent plan. Acts 11:19 describes what happened at the beginning, not what God commanded forever. Jesus Himself already commanded otherwise before He ascended. In Matthew 28:19 Jesus said, “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations.” That command came directly from Jesus, before persecution scattered anyone. So preaching first to Jews was a matter of order and timing, not a different gospel and not a permanent limit.

The second problem is the idea that Peter preaching to Gentiles was a small exception. Scripture shows it was a turning point approved by God. In Acts 10, God gave Peter a vision and sent him to Cornelius, a Gentile. Peter himself explained what this meant in Acts 10:34–35, “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.” This was not Peter acting on his own. God gave the Spirit to Gentiles the same way He did to Jews, proving there was no separate path.

The third problem is the claim that Gentiles were never under God’s law at all. This is not true according to Scripture. Long before Israel existed, God judged Gentile nations for sin, which means they were accountable to His moral law. In Genesis 18–19, Sodom was judged. In Jonah, Nineveh was called to repent. God says in Amos 1–2 that He judged many Gentile nations for their sins. You cannot be judged for breaking a law you were never under in any sense. The law of God is bigger than the Mosaic covenant given at Sinai.

The fourth problem is the idea that Israel “fell” and lost its place as God’s people, causing God to change the gospel message. Jesus never taught that. Jesus said in Matthew 5:17, “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.” Fulfill does not mean cancel or replace with a new rule set for Gentiles. Jesus also said in John 10:16, “Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and there will be one flock and one shepherd.” One flock, not two different systems.

The fifth problem is the misuse of the “dogs” statement. When Jesus spoke to the Canaanite woman in Matthew 15:24–28, He was testing faith, not setting a permanent label. In the end, He praised her faith and granted her request. This passage actually proves that faith and humility, not ethnicity, are what matter. It does not support two gospels or two standards.
The sixth problem is the claim that God changed salvation from repentance and obedience to a faith-without-action message. Jesus never taught that. Jesus said in Mark 16:16, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved.” Jesus also said in John 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” Faith and obedience were never separated by Jesus.

The seventh problem is the attack on water baptism as a “work.” Jesus commanded baptism. In Matthew 28:19 He said to baptize all nations. In John 3:5 Jesus said, “Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” Obedience to a command is not earning salvation. It is trusting God enough to do what He says. Naaman washing in the Jordan in 2 Kings 5 was not earning healing. It was obedience.

The final problem is the idea of “chart differences” that divide Scripture into competing messages. Jesus warned against this kind of thinking. In Matthew 7:24–27 He said those who hear His words and do them are wise, and those who do not are foolish. He did not say His words applied only to Jews for a time and then expired.

In short, the text is wrong because it invents two gospels, separates Jews and Gentiles in a way Jesus never did, dismisses Jesus’ commands as temporary, and redefines obedience as human effort instead of faithful trust. Jesus taught one path, one flock, one standard, and one Lord for all.
 
Those of Israel under the new covenant would be supernaturally changed so that they would keep the law. Those placed into the body of Christ have the opportunity to become Christ-like.

That either of these two things could happen was only because Christ died on the cross and paid for the sins of the world. This was kept hidden (mystery) because had the princes of this world known, they never would have put Jesus to death.

Trying to combine everything for the church today can cause confusion such as seeing no future role for Israel, trying to manifest supernatural "gifts", or trying to claim the material blessing for us today.
 
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MM, The first problem is the claim that the apostles in Jerusalem preached only to Jews as a rule or as God’s permanent plan. Acts 11:19 describes what happened at the beginning, not what God commanded forever. Jesus Himself already commanded otherwise before He ascended. In Matthew 28:19 Jesus said, “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations.” That command came directly from Jesus, before persecution scattered anyone. So preaching first to Jews was a matter of order and timing, not a different gospel and not a permanent limit.

The second problem is the idea that Peter preaching to Gentiles was a small exception. Scripture shows it was a turning point approved by God. In Acts 10, God gave Peter a vision and sent him to Cornelius, a Gentile. Peter himself explained what this meant in Acts 10:34–35, “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.” This was not Peter acting on his own. God gave the Spirit to Gentiles the same way He did to Jews, proving there was no separate path.

The third problem is the claim that Gentiles were never under God’s law at all. This is not true according to Scripture. Long before Israel existed, God judged Gentile nations for sin, which means they were accountable to His moral law. In Genesis 18–19, Sodom was judged. In Jonah, Nineveh was called to repent. God says in Amos 1–2 that He judged many Gentile nations for their sins. You cannot be judged for breaking a law you were never under in any sense. The law of God is bigger than the Mosaic covenant given at Sinai.

The fourth problem is the idea that Israel “fell” and lost its place as God’s people, causing God to change the gospel message. Jesus never taught that. Jesus said in Matthew 5:17, “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.” Fulfill does not mean cancel or replace with a new rule set for Gentiles. Jesus also said in John 10:16, “Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and there will be one flock and one shepherd.” One flock, not two different systems.

The fifth problem is the misuse of the “dogs” statement. When Jesus spoke to the Canaanite woman in Matthew 15:24–28, He was testing faith, not setting a permanent label. In the end, He praised her faith and granted her request. This passage actually proves that faith and humility, not ethnicity, are what matter. It does not support two gospels or two standards.
The sixth problem is the claim that God changed salvation from repentance and obedience to a faith-without-action message. Jesus never taught that. Jesus said in Mark 16:16, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved.” Jesus also said in John 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” Faith and obedience were never separated by Jesus.


The seventh problem is the attack on water baptism as a “work.” Jesus commanded baptism. In Matthew 28:19 He said to baptize all nations. In John 3:5 Jesus said, “Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” Obedience to a command is not earning salvation. It is trusting God enough to do what He says. Naaman washing in the Jordan in 2 Kings 5 was not earning healing. It was obedience.

The final problem is the idea of “chart differences” that divide Scripture into competing messages. Jesus warned against this kind of thinking. In Matthew 7:24–27 He said those who hear His words and do them are wise, and those who do not are foolish. He did not say His words applied only to Jews for a time and then expired.

In short, the text is wrong because it invents two gospels, separates Jews and Gentiles in a way Jesus never did, dismisses Jesus’ commands as temporary, and redefines obedience as human effort instead of faithful trust. Jesus taught one path, one flock, one standard, and one Lord for all.

Those are good talking points. Thanks for providing those.

In relation to the first two paragraph, they are points that this can dispatch:

Galatians 2:7 — But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

Some in the past have tried to deemphasize the "of" in this passage as allegedly only referring to two groupings of peoples allegedly under the same gospel, which fails the acid test of the grammatical construct within the Greek and shown to us in the English translation. It seemed easy, in their estimation, to play that word salad game, but they forgot that directional continuity in the lingual construction of the phraseology in that verse renders their analysis a measure of intellectual dishonesty given the level of wishful thinking they were foisting upon it...as if circumcision and uncircumcision are one and the same thing.

Had the meaning been what they want it to point, it would have been written as, "...the gospel of the circumcision and uncircumcision..." had it actually been a singular, and thus same, gospel message with all elements being absolutely the same. Sadly for them, that simply is not the case.

I absolutely agree with you that unbelieving Gentiles are under the Law right now. As believers we are dead to the Law, but the unbelieving world is completely under the Law and it's judgements and death except they die to the Law through Christ Jesus.

Another point; Jesus did not speak directly of Israel's fall, but prophesied it here in a way that hid the real meaning until now:

Luke 13:6-9 — He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

One year after Stephen's stoning, Israel fell, thus the necessity for the su sequent revelation of the mystery hidden in God from the foundations of the world to Paul alone, who then conveyed it to his fellow workers and to Jews and Gentiles alike...Gentiles who did not have salvation available to them directly so long as Israel was still standing:

Acts 28:28 — Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

That salvation sent to the Gentiles, spoken in the present tense of "is," that clearly shows to us that it wasn't available to them before apart from joining with Israel. As an Israeli, I'm acutely aware of our failure as a nation, so I'm not anti Semitic in admitting Israel is fallen just so you know.

As to Jesus allegedly not stating the actual status of Gentiles before salvation had come to them directly apart from joining with Israel, that is a weak argument when we read the wording and consider it's clear implications in relation to positional status, especially reinforced by the identification of that middle wall of partition. Please provide a more robust critique to back your thoughts on this.

Labeling the grace position as faith-without-action, that's an argument from silence from my actual statements. Never did I state that works are not a part of our life in Christ. What I stated is that works play no part whatsoever in our salvation and its alleged retention. James spoke directly to Israel on that point (James 1:1); those who were still zealous for the Law, as Peter revealed to us. Action of good works are a natural outflow from a genuine faith, not the other way around:

Romans 4:2 — For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

James 2:21 — Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

When it comes to the polar opposites of these two statements about the same man and his works, I've heard preachers try disastrously to harmonize them into a coherently unified amalgam on the basis of language. The problem with that silly nonsense in how they tried doing so is that the two different statements both speak the truth into the respective gospels wherein they are mentioned and to the audiences to whom they were intended. That alone harmonizes the two. Nothing else I have ever seen accomplishes that end.

Your point seven is cumbersome. To say that baptism is not a work, especially in relation to something as important as remission of sins under ths Kingdom Gospel at that time; contrast that with faith, which requires no muscular motion or work whatsoever compared to something that requires considerable muscular motion and activity and that today under grace remits no sin whatsoever. No. Sorry. That's a bankrupt argument from what I'm seeing.

As to the "chart differences" claim, no. The divisions within truths throughout all of scripture are very real. I dare say you don't run out into your back yard and offer up animal sacrifices for your sins because you too practice divisions with truth because of the truth divisions between the Law and the accomplished Blood of Christ.

MM
 
I absolutely agree with you that unbelieving Gentiles are under the Law right now. As believers we are dead to the Law, but the unbelieving world is completely under the Law and it's judgements and death except they die to the Law through Christ Jesus.

Actually no. Unbelievers will be judged by their rejection of Christ's words.

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. Deuteronomy 18:18-19
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. John 12:48-49
 
Acts 28:28 — Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

That salvation sent to the Gentiles, spoken in the present tense of "is," that clearly shows to us that it wasn't available to them before apart from joining with Israel. As an Israeli, I'm acutely aware of our failure as a nation, so I'm not anti Semitic in admitting Israel is fallen just so you know.

The salvation of God sent to the gentiles was the same salvation of God that the Jews Paul was speaking to had just rejected
 
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Some in the past have tried to deemphasize the "of" in this passage as allegedly only referring to two groupings of peoples allegedly under the same gospel, which fails the acid test of the grammatical construct within the Greek and shown to us in the English translation. It seemed easy, in their estimation, to play that word salad game, but they forgot that directional continuity in the lingual construction of the phraseology in that verse renders their analysis a measure of intellectual dishonesty given the level of wishful thinking they were foisting upon it...as if circumcision and uncircumcision are one and the same thing.

Now this is a word salad par excellence! You, monsieur, are ze master word salad chef!