I acknowledge that God fulfilled His purposes through Noah. I do not acknowledge that Noah was in any way necessary for God to fulfill His purpose.
Acts 2:38 Comparison: Evangelical vs. Oneness / Baptismal-Regeneration View
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“What many fail to realize is that both receiving the Holy Ghost, and having one's sins remitted are required in order to be born again of water and Spirit.”
indeed. Some heard other things long ago . so now a man like you has to stress “ required” because many learn “ nothing at all is required , God chooses who he chooses and no one can do anything and nothing you do or don’t do will affect it ect ect ect
So then a simple blessing and promise like baptism for remission of sins in Jesus name , becomes irrelevant to a believer because they were told it’s not true or doesn’t apply .and certainly isn’t required . “
Otherwise you could just share about it and people would know it’s a gift and promise from the lord for remission of sins and spiritual birth into the body of Christ who’s name we’re baptized into as well . Making us children in the only son. Sad really but this has happened and goes on and on
“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.”
2 Peter 2:1-2 KJV
That’s why things like baptism for remission of sins a biblical theme and teaching …..have many detractors telling people there’s no requirement to be baptized you don’t need to obey any of the things you learn from the lord are important and have meaning ….
when you learn “ you don’t need to do anything nothing you can do will change anything you can’t choose “
then the guy saying “ we need to believe and be baptized for remission of sins like scripture clearly and repeatedly teaches “
becomes the one who “just doesn’t get it “
we must be getting near the end the church doctrine is so different from person to person
“But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
Luke 23:40-43
We can’t interfere and add to anyone else’s relationship with God . Everything you understand you are accountable for. Everything I understand I’m accountable for . But not other people they aren’t accountable for my many years of study and seeking more , I am responsible for what I know and the lord has let me understand .
We have to not be like a Pharisee trying to build up some impossible list of commands and sort of seeing ourselves as “ guarding the truth and “allowing access “ to god when our thoughts are met and satisfied involving others
Jesus wants sinners to get real with him that’s all that’s initially needed . He has patience and if rebearance and he’s the best teacher when we’re willing to learn gentle indeed and humble in heart.
faith isn’t something based on what we do . Not the deed that’s not faith but rather BY FAITH NOAH BUILT THE ARK IN OBEDIENCE “ the deeds were completed by the faith he had when he hears and believes Gods word .
it’s based on the heart a decision we make when we hear the lords word
Like this . If I were to hear this and believe it in our heart
“And God said unto Noah,
The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
Make thee an ark of gopher wood; ( gives Noah some instructions then a promise )
And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee. …
( if a man was Noah and God said that to you and you believed it this is the only result )
Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.”
Genesis 6:13-14, 17-18, 22 KJV
His life and his families life depended on it dear moved Noah only because he heard what God said and believed it. He actually thought “ the end is near I better do this “
hearing may take time it did for me in life I only knew things that babes know the spiritual milk for the young in the word then later I began discovering the nest and potatoes . It takes time everyone isn’t going to come from a decent place some are sinners like the prodigal but we can’t be the other brother who was always obedient and then gets mad when the young brother who never did good comes home and is welcomed with tears and open arms by the father .
lot of Jesus teachings are hidden in parables like the prodigal son and gets missed by people even when they think they’re really obedient , there’s alot they haven’t actually learned yet .
another person has a relationship with Christ not based on thier good obedience to him . But thier recognition of thier own fallible self as a sinner who needs him or they will surely die in thier sins . later thier deeds and words will all be judged by him like all of ours will . But he already knows we’re sinners to begin with he isn’t averse to communing with sinners for the sake of saving thier souls
He even loves and keeps them tbrough struggles with drugs and alcohol or abuse or tradgedy when they fail and fall and struggle and strive
“But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me. And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?”
Matthew 14:30-31 KJV
Even when a man’s faith fails Jesus is closer than just coming and going he’s there forever until judgement day when our deeds and words will be revealed and judged by him alone
I agree, just let scripture say what it say's:
Gen 6 text doesn’t support your conclusion that Noah's righteousness preceded God's grace.
Gen 6:
8 is the 1st statement about Noah in the flood narrative: Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
9 a character summary, that doesn't say Noah earned grace. The text presents grace 1st, then a character description.
NT Hebrews collapses the obedience 1st narrative
Heb 11:7 says Noah """became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."""
Noah’s righteousness flowed from faith & faith flowed from grace. NOT the other way around.
Righteousness is a God given """GIFT""" imputed as a result of FAITH
Rom 5:
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.
(MY NOTE: Scripture proclaims """Righteousness is a Gift!""")
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
(MY NOTE: Context last verse = Righteousness & here again its a """FREE GIFT!""" Accessed thru)
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith
Grace is a """GIFT""" Accessed via Faith
Rom 5:
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also """we have access by faith into this grace""" wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 3:24 Being """justified freely by his grace""" through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is """the free gift""". For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the """grace of God""", """and the gift by grace""", which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Neither Noah nor any other believer obtains righteousness thru their own obedient actions. Righteousness is a FAITH imputed GIFT. The Lord is the source of righteousness (Jer 23:6) & it's imputation (Rom Chapter 4).
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
(BTW: That ONE OBEDIENT man here isn't Noah!)
When people require Cain like self-works/obedience etc. It makes salvation/justification/righteousness about them & robs the Lord of His due praise, glory & honor. AMEN & Amen
I'm just glancing through this.
No one - certainly not me - said there was no grace in Noah's life before God's grace/favor for saving him and his family spoken of in Gen6.
But the Scripture under discussion says Noah being a righteous man, blameless man, walking with God, is prior to the grace/favor Noah found in Gen6.
It's simply what the Text says.
I notice you skipped the Ezekiel Scriptures. I find them quite interesting.
Respectfully, you claim you're just reading the verses as written. But you're not!
You're importing a causal sequence the text never says: """Noah was righteous & therefore God gave grace.""" Gen never says that Heb never says that.
Gen 6:8 This is the first time Noah appears in the flood narrative. There is: no command, no obedience, no righteousness mentioned, no covenant cut, no ark, no works > Just grace!
Gen 6:9 a narrator’s character summary: Not when Noah became that way, NOT why he became that way, NOT what caused God’s grace.
You claim: Noah was righteous, blameless, and walking with God already when he found grace. HAS NO TEXTUAL SUPPORT.
The text never says: when Noah became righteous, how Noah became righteous, whether grace preceded righteousness, whether righteousness preceded grace.
Heb explicitly states: Noah’s righteousness is by faith, Faith itself is a response to grace, therefore righteousness does not precede grace.
Obedience is the Fruit of Grace, NOT the Cause of it. You quote: Gen 6:22, Gen 7:5, Gen 7:9, Gen 7:16. ALL these verses describe obedience AFTER grace was given.
The sequence is: Grace (6:8), Covenant promise (6:18), Commands (6:19–21), Obedience (6:22). Obedience is the result of grace, not the cause of grace.
One more time: Gen text presents grace first, then covenant, then obedience. The exact the pattern Hebrews affirms.
Thanks, but I disagree. I am reading these verses as they are written. I've explained in part how and why.
Actually, you're importing "causal" into what I said.
Yes, grace is stated here. What you're negating I've already mentioned - the first word in this verse is separating Noah from how God sees the rest of mankind - Noah's character is being taken into account (which does make this causal).
Agreed.
Disagreed. Gen6:9 is explaining why God viewed Noah differently than the rest of humanity, which is set up by the first word in Gen6:8 and in context is a factor in his finding God's grace. Please don't insert "causal" here because it's not stated.
Agreed in regard to Noah's existing character per Gen6:8-9. Thus to speak of it is argument from silence, so you shouldn't be inserting it.
Yes, Heb11:7 is focusing on this covenant righteousness based in God's grace in the flood narrative. It is not going back and explaining Noah's righteous, blameless character existing at the time he found grace per Gen6:8.
Obedience is an intrinsic part of genuine faith and not a fruit of it (Rom10:16; Heb3:18-19; 1John3:23; Acts16:30; et.al.). Correct, obedient faith is not the cause of grace, but can be a factor in grace.
Faith/Obedience is the result of grace, which gives us some warrant to consider the involvement of God's grace throughout Noah's walk with God - but being argument from silence, there's no need.
Covered above.
You've never dealt with the Ezekial passages. They are very pertinent to this Genesis narrative re: Noah.
You keep saying you’re """just reading the text,""" but you’re adding a causal relationship the text never states.
Gen 6:8 gives grace before any mention of righteousness, obedience, covenant, or command.
Gens 6:9 is a character summary, not a cause.
Every obedience verse you cite occurs after grace is given & after the covenant promise is made. That makes obedience the fruit of grace, not the basis of it.
Heb 11:7 collapses all of Noah's righteousness into one category: """the righteousness which is by faith.""" It does not split Noah into pre‑flood righteousness & covenant righteousness. That distinction is coming from your works based promoted system, not the text.
If obedience is a factor in receiving grace, then grace is no longer grace (Rom 11:6).
Gen presents grace > covenant > faith > obedience. You’re reversing the order.
As for Ezekiel (a rabbit hole unrelated to the discussion), it describes Noah’s reputation centuries later, not the chronology of Gen 6.
It doesn’t override the sequence the Gen 6 narrator gives.
I’m sticking with the Gen 6 text as written. Grace first, then covenant, then obedience. The exact the pattern Heb affirms
Bottom line your works-based salvation message is antithetical to scripture.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
God considering Noah’s character in granting grace does not make it causal. I’ve stated this repeatedly. Your repeated claim is a straw man and your repetition does not make it true.
That's all for this response. We'll need to get past this flawed and repetitive allegation or there's not much use in continuing. Also, ignoring what I said about the first word in Gen6:8 and the information I provided from Ezekiel suggests to me this isn't a serious discussion.
Simply put, YHWH does indeed consider Noah's character in this account in providing grace. Ezekiel coupled with the narrative re: Noah will explain more of this.
Sight is the primary context of Chapter 6. The first four verse of its introduction illustrates the focus of the sight of men, that they were continually checking out the skirts and taking as many as they liked, and God's regard for that. Then, verses 5-7 reveals what God saw, His view as far as into their very hearts, and the grief it caused Him. But verse 8 offers a 'however,' found in God's eyes, favor for Noah. What did God see in Noah that compelled His favor? Nothing? Was there absolutely no difference in him from the rest of mankind that set him apart?
Verse 9 gives account of the difference God saw in him.
Verse 9 gives account of the difference God saw in him.
We are saved by grace.
What does the name john mean in hebrew?
The name John comes from the Hebrew name Yochanan (יוֹחָנָן), meaning "God is gracious" or "God has been gracious". It's formed from "Yo" (a short form of God's name, YHWH) and "Chanan" (to grace or favor), reflecting a divine gift or favor, as seen with John the Baptist.
Think of all of the trouble GOD when through to set HIS plan of salivation up starting with John who was the only human filled with the Holy Ghost from birth.
GOD graciously gives us water to remove our sins.
No works involved but obedience is, sad for HIM to do all of that and we don't obey.
If you don't think we need to be baptized in JESUS name to remove our sins than how do we?
Are we still born in sin?
Will sin enter heaven?
If so and if not then we have to get rid of it, how do we do that?
Please see how specific this verse is on how to get rid of our sins,
Acts 2:38-39
King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
See how specific JESUS is with HIS wording in this verse,
John 3:5
King James Version
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Notice how those verse are almost the same wording?
If you going to show me how faith removes our sins and fills us with the Holy Ghost like JESUS filled HIS disciples in Acts 2:4,
Please make sure there is no doubt and they are very specific like the ones above.
The flood water killed everyone. Did it indirectly cleanse Noah as it 'cleansed the earth' of the others? As 1 Peter 3:21 clarifies of the water (specifically Noah's flood water) "that symbolizes (specific to Strong's lexicon [the], the definite article, and [that]) baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt (see Strong's Greek 4509) from the body but..."
Going into the water didn't save Noah as much as entering into the ark, and as I think of the pitch which kept the 'waters of judgment' out, I think of God's instruction of its design as not unlike Moses' instruction wherein Acacia wood is specified, except in Noah's case, nobody but him knows what 'gopher wood' is exactly.
Re: Gen6:8 the NET Bible contains some helpful translation notes explaining the Hebrew and referencing other verses where the character of the person given grace/favor is a factor in the account:
Please note in note #28 how it states v.9 is "the basis" and not "the cause" of YHWH's grace/favor - the two are quite different.
This concept is also seen in the Remnant discussed by Paul:
NET Genesis 6:8 But27 Noah found favor28 in the sight of29 the LORD.
27 tn The disjunctive clause (conjunction + subject + verb) is contrastive here: God condemns the human race, but he is pleased with Noah.
28 tn The Hebrew expression "find favor [in the eyes of]" is an idiom meaning "to be an object of another's favorable disposition or action," "to be a recipient of another's favor, kindness, mercy." The favor/kindness is often earned, coming in response to an action or condition (see Gen 32:5; 39:4; Deut 24:1; 1 Sam 25:8; Prov 3:4; Ruth 2:10). This is the case in Gen 6:8, where v. 9 gives the basis (Noah's righteous character) for the divine favor.
29 tn Heb "in the eyes of," an anthropomorphic expression for God's opinion or decision. The LORD saw that the whole human race was corrupt, but he looked in favor on Noah.
Please note in note #28 how it states v.9 is "the basis" and not "the cause" of YHWH's grace/favor - the two are quite different.
This concept is also seen in the Remnant discussed by Paul:
NKJ Rom11:4-6 But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
- NKJ 1Kings19:17-18 "It shall be that whoever escapes the sword of Hazael, Jehu will kill; and whoever escapes the sword of Jehu, Elisha will kill. 18 "Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him."
- The basis for (not the cause of) God's grace/favor here is not works this remnant had done - but is rather what they had not done and what their character was - they were not idolatrous > then they were favored and chosen
NKJ Acts10:34-35 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 "But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted (welcomed) by Him.
- NKJ Acts 10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, 2 a devout (reverent) man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always.
- Interestingly:
- Cornelius' character is highlighted - he's reverent and fears God and was prayerful
- Acts10:35 again states a basis - this time for God's acceptance/welcome
- God welcoming such a man is not "partiality" (but may seem like it)
- Though grace/favor is not mentioned by word here, I'd suggest it's most certainly seen in context and content, especially as the narrative proceeds and is recounted in Acts15 and inferred in Acts15:11.
- Luke also brings up that Cornelius "works righteousness" - at minimum seeming to point to he gave alms generously.
- Is the fact that a man "works righteousness" ("works" is an accurate translation) taken into account by God for His grace/favor as it is for His welcome? Is His welcome indicative of His favor?
- Are these works not taken into account according to Paul - while Paul does see that character is a basis (Rom11:4-6) for grace/favor?