Acts 2:38 Comparison: Evangelical vs. Oneness / Baptismal-Regeneration View

[studier]

Where in Genesis 12 does it say that Abram was considered righteous by God? Here we see that Abram departed out of his country, from his family, from his father’s house to a land that God will show him, but it was not until Genesis 15:5-6 where we read that God brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

Your point is understood, but for clarity the Hebrew parsing of ‘believed’ in Gen15:6 highlights Abram’s believing response to the specific promise YHWH made in Gen15:4–5, but it does not exclude the obedient faith Abram had already been living out since Genesis 12 likely for years.

Read this way, the verse functions much like the Noah narrative: Noah was already walking with God before Scripture draws our attention to a decisive moment of obedient faith, recorded for our instruction.

 

[Wansvic]

It was Jesus work that saved Noah.

God gave Noah instructions. Noah believed and obeyed to the saving of his house.

 

[Cameron143]

God made a promise that Eve's seed would bruise the head of the serpent, which is generally understood to mean Christ destroying the power of the devil in his death. That promise could only be fulfilled through Adam's seed; it could not be fulfilled by some other race that God could create if all of existing humanity had been destroyed in the flood.

Does that make sense? Do you still feel a need to go beyond what is written into fantasy land to try to find some loophole to the reality that God is bound by his words?

I already assented to this and said good job pointing this out in an earlier post. Do you still believe Noah's obedience was necessary for Christ to come into the world?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Agreed.

The first thing that should be taught is to not say we believe in Him if we're not prepared to submit to Him and do what He says. God & Father & Lord & Christ/King are all words of authority.

That reality is foundational. We both know it is developed over time and that over time we realize we originally had little clue what that meant in it's more complete scope, but at least we should have been clearly informed of it. Maybe it would save some from some discipline. Maybe it would save others from deceitful, false theology.

Well I think if you don’t first believe in Jesus no one would ever even consider following him.

i think the issue is many say “ believe in the finished world of the cross “ and then they reject everything Jesus said would save a soul in the gospel . Like repentance , forgiveness , no condemnation no judging each other , upright living , self sacrifice , turning the other cheek to insults , sharing with the needy as you are able ect ect all of the things Jesus taught get rejected because he suffered and died on the cross .

awe should believe what Jesus said

when we do that he teaches us to forgive others to be kind and take care of others to be faithful and honest to be a blessing rather than a curse so this process but if the person doesn’t first believe in Jesus even before they know about obedience ( like I did for thirty years before I noticed how intertwined it is

but what happened was like a babe I began to learn a little then later I learned more and more eventually I got to the self sacrifice and obedience part . I would days that we have to first vekieve before anything else will come remember this part

How much we know truly matters to the individual and tbier judgement between they and the lord

“And that servant, which knew his Lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.

For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:47-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the more we learn and mature the more is expected of us because it’s an operation of faith . A process . Have to hear what he said in order to ever come to obedience.

It’s a process a seed can’t bear fruit but later it will knows the gardener with patient care it will bloom . Even when it’s a baby plant with only a few leaves the gardener knows what it’s gonna become with his care but it’s not bearing fruit yet it’s a babe it doesn’t have the roots and stock to hold up the fruit it’s not capable yet but it’s growing and already belongs to the verse er and is planted already before bearing a single price of fruit firmly where the gardener planted it

 

[Pilgrimshope]

God gave Noah instructions. Noah believed and obeyed to the saving of his house.

It’s hard to get some to acknowledge things like that because thier position is “ no one needs to do anything nor can they do anything “ they can’t even choose to some here so Noah’s obedience to gods command tbat saved him by promise gets rejected and you hear things like “ Jesus work saved Noah “ of course there’s nothing biblical about it infact the Bible says by faith Noah built the ark to the saving of his house

 

[studier]

but what happened was like a babe I began to learn a little then later I learned more and more eventually I got to the self sacrifice and obedience part . I would days that we have to first vekieve before anything else will come remember this part

To become a babe in the rebirth sense, our belief was also obedience to the command to believe.

he more we learn and mature the more is expected of us because it’s an operation of faith . A process . Have to hear what he said in order to ever come to obedience.

When we hear the Gospel, inherent in it is God's command to believe in His Son Jesus Christ. When a King issues such Good News, inherent within it is to do what is stated.

It’s a process a seed can’t bear fruit but later it will knows the gardener with patient care it will bloom . Even when it’s a baby plant with only a few leaves the gardener knows what it’s gonna become with his care but it’s not bearing fruit yet it’s a babe it doesn’t have the roots and stock to hold up the fruit it’s not capable yet but it’s growing and already belongs to the verse er and is planted already before bearing a single price of fruit firmly where the gardener planted it

Inherent in the seed is obedience, good works, endurance, etc. The seed produces what's inherent within it.

 

[Wansvic]

This is actually a good opportunity to clarify the heart of the issue — because your reply reveals a confusion between two different kinds of baptism (Spirit vs. water) and a misunderstanding of Peter’s role.

Brother, I agree that Cornelius’ Spirit baptism was indeed a sign — but not a sign for Peter to add a ritual requirement.
It was a sign from God that Gentiles had already been accepted by faith, before any water touched them.

“Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?” — Acts 10:47​

Peter’s words don’t make water the means of forgiveness — they show water as the confirmation of forgiveness already received.
If the Holy Spirit had already fallen on them, then their sins were already remitted. The Spirit never indwells the unforgiven.

That’s why Peter later explained it this way in Acts 11:17–18:

“Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, what was I, that I could withstand God? … Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.”​

Notice — faith and repentance unto life came first. The gift of the Spirit confirmed it. Water baptism followed as outward testimony.

About Peter and the “Keys of the Kingdom”

Yes, Jesus gave Peter the “keys of the kingdom” (Matthew 16:19) — but keys open doors, they don’t wash sins.
Peter used those keys three times:

1. To the Jews (Acts 2)
2. To the Samaritans (Acts 8, through confirmation by Peter and John)
3. To the Gentiles (Acts 10)

Each time, he opened a new “door” of gospel access — but he didn’t create a new method of salvation. The same pattern follows:
Faith → Spirit → Water — never reversed.

Water vs. Spirit Baptism

You’re right that the baptism of the Spirit empowered the disciples (Acts 1:8), but in Cornelius’ case, it also served as a sign of full acceptance.
Peter explicitly recognized that the Spirit’s outpouring on Gentiles proved that salvation was already theirs.

If water were the instrument of remission, Peter would have said, “Let’s baptize them so they can receive forgiveness.”
Instead, he said, “Can we withhold water from those who have already received the Spirit?”
That’s a completely different order — and one the text makes unambiguous.

Basically:

• The Spirit fell before baptism → showing salvation had already occurred.
• Peter used the “keys” to affirm inclusion, not to dispense forgiveness.
• Water baptism was obedience and identification, not the cause of remission.

“To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.” — Acts 10:43​

​

That’s the verse Peter himself spoke right before the Spirit fell.
It was belief, not water, that brought forgiveness — and the Spirit confirmed it.

Grace and Peace

What many fail to realize is that both receiving the Holy Ghost, and having one's sins remitted are required in order to be born again of water and Spirit.

Peter's initial comment in verse 43 confirms that those who believe in Jesus will receive forgiveness of their sin through His name. The statement points back to what Peter first revealed at Pentecost; be baptized everyone of you IN THE NAME of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin.

The Jews understood sins were remitted upon obedience to water baptism in the name of Jesus, as such it was not necessary for Peter to state the obvious in the account.

In Acts 11, Peter commented, who was I to withstand God AFTER God had given the Holy Ghost. This indicates Peter was talking about water baptism. To forbid to water baptize was to withhold forgiveness of sins per God's design. (John 20:22-24, Luke 24:47, Acts 2:38, 22:16) It was after the Jews were informed that the Gentiles had both received the Holy Ghost and were water baptized in the name of Jesus that they stated God had granted them repentance unto life.

All of the detailed conversion accounts reveal the key(S) that open the door for individuals of every nationality to be faith in Jesus, water baptism in the name of Jesus and receiving the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:4-42, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16) The same still holds true today. Surely, the 12 men Paul instructed some 20+ years after the gospel message was first presented at Pentecost continued steadfastly in the apostles doctrine. (Acts 19:1-7, 2:41-42)

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I already assented to this and said good job pointing this out in an earlier post. Do you still believe Noah's obedience was necessary for Christ to come into the world?

Absolutely. How could he have come into the world as the son of Adam if all of Adam's children were dead?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

but it does not exclude the obedient faith Abram had already been living out since Genesis 12 likely for years.

First recorded directive: leave Haran and your kin
Obedience: He left

 

[Cameron143]

Absolutely. How could he have come into the world as the son of Adam if all of Adam's children were dead?

God couldn't have come to another person in the time of Noah and they found grace in the sight of the Lord?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

God couldn't have come to another person in the time of Noah and they found grace in the sight of the Lord?

No because they were all evil or too old to build the ark, like his father (died 5 years before flood) and grandfather (died the year of the flood) were.

 

[Cameron143]

No because they were all evil or too old to build the ark, like his father (died 5 years before flood) and grandfather (died the year of the flood) were.

Your God can't do very much. You have at least 2 saviors...Jesus and Noah. Does your salvation also rely upon Abraham's obedience?

 

[cv5]

Noah was already walking with God ***before*** Scripture draws our attention to a decisive moment of obedient faith, recorded for our instruction.

Indeed, the "pattern of the patriarchs" (the son chosen from among his peers because of his attributes and character) is quite consistent in Scripture. Generally this chosen one carried on the clan priestly office.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

To become a babe in the rebirth sense, our belief was also obedience to the command to believe.



When we hear the Gospel, inherent in it is God's command to believe in His Son Jesus Christ. When a King issues such Good News, inherent within it is to do what is stated.



Inherent in the seed is obedience, good works, endurance, etc. The seed produces what's inherent within it.

“When we hear the Gospel, inherent in it is God's command to believe in His Son Jesus Christ. “

right it’s the call of the gospel when you hear it believe in him .

“ Inherent in the seed is obedience, good works, endurance, etc. The seed produces what's inherent within it.”

right but you don’t see any fruit from your perspective u til the seed dies and becomes a plant even then it takes a lot of time before the plant is able to bear fruit …..

seed can’t bear fruit not baby fruit plants bor immature plants they start to bud and bear the small signs of fruit …. On and on. Christian’s don’t all know the same thing you learned when you learned it . They have to believe in Jesus and then hear what he is saying…. Then only after that will they start to hear his word which …. Indeed teaches a believer to repent and obey .

i can really only speak for myself and things I’ve perceived . But I can tell you I can’t remember when I started to believe in Jesus I think it was before I can remember as a kid . Daddy used to read the Bible every night and it was just true he said so I then believed . But all he read nothing about me obeying the gospel ever sunk in .

ask my younger life I was definately 100 percent a believer in Jesus but the issue was I didn’t know anything really about his doctrine that again teaches a believer to repent of thier bad behaviors and take up the behaviors he taught in the gospel . About midways I started seeing it and it began to sink in and change the way I thought


“if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; and be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:21-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

ehat changes a mind is hearing the truth . The mind goes from “ I do what I feel it’s all right or everyone sins no one can change “ it changes over to what Jesus taught . The doctrine of Gods children

It’s not that you have to first be perfect then you can believe and belong to him at all . It’s that he will accept a sinner who believes in him and hears his word and that sinner over time will learn the way the truth and the life in him

jesus didn’t come to save the righteous he came to call sinners to repentance and save tbier souls from thier own demise

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Your God can't do very much. You have at least 2 saviors...Jesus and Noah. Does your salvation also rely upon Abraham's obedience?

You think like this because your faith is in your sense of God, whereas my faith is in his revealed words. You, therefore, have no problem setting aside his words when they contradict your conception of God.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Indeed, the "pattern of the patriarchs" (the son chosen from among his peers because of his attributes and character) is quite consistent in Scripture. Generally this chosen one carried on the clan priestly office.

The geneaology of faith of the chosen firstborns, from Adam to Christ.

 

[Cameron143]

You think like this because your faith is in your sense of God, whereas my faith is in his revealed words. You, therefore, have no problem setting aside his words when they contradict your conception of God.

Nope. I think like this because I have the mind of Christ and see things from God's perspective and not man's.

 

[studier]

“When we hear the Gospel, inherent in it is God's command to believe in His Son Jesus Christ. “

right it’s the call of the gospel when you hear it believe in him .

“ Inherent in the seed is obedience, good works, endurance, etc. The seed produces what's inherent within it.”

right but you don’t see any fruit from your perspective u til the seed dies and becomes a plant even then it takes a lot of time before the plant is able to bear fruit …..

seed can’t bear fruit not baby fruit plants bor immature plants they start to bud and bear the small signs of fruit …. On and on. Christian’s don’t all know the same thing you learned when you learned it . They have to believe in Jesus and then hear what he is saying…. Then only after that will they start to hear his word which …. Indeed teaches a believer to repent and obey .

i can really only speak for myself and things I’ve perceived . But I can tell you I can’t remember when I started to believe in Jesus I think it was before I can remember as a kid . Daddy used to read the Bible every night and it was just true he said so I then believed . But all he read nothing about me obeying the gospel ever sunk in .

ask my younger life I was definately 100 percent a believer in Jesus but the issue was I didn’t know anything really about his doctrine that again teaches a believer to repent of thier bad behaviors and take up the behaviors he taught in the gospel . About midways I started seeing it and it began to sink in and change the way I thought


“if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; and be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:21-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

ehat changes a mind is hearing the truth . The mind goes from “ I do what I feel it’s all right or everyone sins no one can change “ it changes over to what Jesus taught . The doctrine of Gods children

It’s not that you have to first be perfect then you can believe and belong to him at all . It’s that he will accept a sinner who believes in him and hears his word and that sinner over time will learn the way the truth and the life in him

jesus didn’t come to save the righteous he came to call sinners to repentance and save tbier souls from thier own demise

How does Paul describe and refer to believing here?:

• 16 But not all have obeyed the good news, for Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" (Rom. 10:16 NET)

How does Hebrews describe and refer to belief here?:

• 18 And to whom did he swear they would never enter into his rest, except those who were disobedient?
  19 So we see that they could not enter because of unbelief. (Heb. 3:18-19 NET)

What is the very simple, basic logic here concerning believing and obedience?:

• 23 Now this is his commandment: that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ... (1 Jn. 3:23a NET)
• 30 Then he brought them outside and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 They replied, "Believe (imperative mood - command) in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household." (Acts 16:30-31 NET)

While I have no issue with obedience growing and increasing, it's clear to me that we are reborn through a faith that is also obedience - obedient faith - that is the basis for our entrance into Christ.

 

[studier]

Indeed, the "pattern of the patriarchs" (the son chosen from among his peers because of his attributes and character) is quite consistent in Scripture. Generally this chosen one carried on the clan priestly office.

We've touched on Noah and on Abraham and it is clear in both of them FROM SCRIPTURE that they were both in an obedient relationship with YHWH (certainly believing who He is) before the events that the NC focuses on. I'm satisfied that this is part of how the Text teaches us about genuine faith.

Good to see you posting here!

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Nope. I think like this because I have the mind of Christ and see things from God's perspective and not man's.

God's perspective is what is written. He promised that the seed of the woman would conquer the serpent. That seed would not have survived the flood if Noah and his sons had not built the ark. Therefore, Noah's work saved Adam's seed.

Your concept of God doesn't allow you to acknowledge this plain truth.