Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Jordon]

When backed into a logic-corner. One that would demand you get honest?
You always show flippant insensitivity and vaporize.

Seems to me your quest is more for video game playing than possessing a serious hunger for truth.
For you have shown that truth does not really matter to you if truth ruins winning your game.
You just fluff it off and wait until it is forgotten about.

It is like what the Roman soldiers did who gambled over the clothes of Jesus hanging on the Cross.
There is no apparent sense of the sacredness of what you are dealing with.

The Word of God is the Mind of Christ!
It is what Jesus constantly thought with.

whatever Trevor you've been shown more than enough by me.

 

[cv5]

Strewth! The lengths people keep going to.

If it is God's word producing the new heart who do you think is giving the new heart? How much do you think your heart would have changed if you believed the Gospel but then never associated with anything Christian again, never read or studied the word, never mixed with Christian friends and spoke of God's workings in your life?

You assume God "waves His magic wand" and "hey presto" a new heart. It doesn't work like that. We change over time as we get to know the Lord and learn to delight ourselves in Him because of who He is and in turn He gives to us His desires so our values line up with His. In this way we have a new heart from the Lord.

Their god is the god of magic wands and shotgun weddings lol.

 

[brightfame52]

makes no difference

Yes it does. Creation doesn't reveal Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

A new heart AND a new spirit.

Yes it is a new birth or creation.

 

[rogerg]

Strewth! The lengths people keep going to.

If it is God's word producing the new heart who do you think is giving the new heart? How much do you think your heart would have changed if you believed the Gospel but then never associated with anything Christian again, never read or studied the word, never mixed with Christian friends and spoke of God's workings in your life?

You assume God "waves His magic wand" and "hey presto" a new heart. It doesn't work like that. We change over time as we get to know the Lord and learn to delight ourselves in Him because of who He is and in turn He gives to us His desires so our values line up with His. In this way we have a new heart from the Lord.

No way. You're trying to change what the verse clearly states to make it say what you want. He directly and unliterally gives those He saves a new heart - with nothing in between. There is nothing that even hints otherwise - there is no wiggle room on that.

 

[Cameron143]

Nope. All of your theories and pretentions are dead wrong 100% of the time. As are the other Calvinists on this thread.
Like literally never correct on any matter of soteriology............ever.

Everybody knew in ages past, same as everybody knows now. And the end result will be the same, both for the believers/receivers and the deniers and scoffers. Those who CHOOSE LIFE will live. Those who CHOOSE to perish will perish.

Deu 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

2Pe 3:3
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after ***their*** own lusts,

2Pe 3:5
For this ***they*** willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

****************************************************************************************
And word up to all of you Calvinists out there, God is never to blame.

2Pe 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I get it. You don't understand the difference between that which is intellectual from that which is an expression of the heart. You don't know the difference between natural and spiritual.

 

[sawdust]

See the accounts of Abimelech and Balaam in the OT and Judas in the NT. Compatibilism at its finest....

The Abimelech story I'm not as familiar with but the Balaam story I know well. The problem with your interpretation is that what was determined and what was chosen were not the same thing at the same time. Balaam made a choice to go but God determined He would only speak what God told him. If it is was both simultaneously then Balaam should have not gone but gone and said what he wanted and only what God wanted. I'm sure you're smart enough to see that scenario cannot work.

The Balaam story is very interesting as we see God's will at work in three ways.

First His stated will. Don't go Balaam.
Second His permissive will. All right, go ahead and do what you want. (you will have to learn the hard way)
Third His sovereign will. You will say what I want and nothing else no matter what you think to do.

Sorry for the aside there but ultimately Balaam does not solve the problem of simultaneously being made to do something and having choice which is what the poster seemed to imply was happening.

To be honest I'm no longer even sure that is what he was saying as his words are quite confusing most of the time.

Either way do you think God made you believe the Gospel (as in forced on you like in Balaam's case) or did you believe of your own free will?

 

[Genez]

Really? And just what are you going to do about it?

Look away when our Father spanks my brother.

 

[Genez]

whatever Trevor you've been shown more than enough by me.

You keep trying to play the part of someone you are not.

 

[sawdust]

No way. You're trying to change what the verse clearly states to make it say what you want. He directly and unliterally gives those He saves a new heart - with nothing in between. There is nothing that even hints otherwise - there is no wiggle room on that.

I'm not changing anything. I agree God gives us a new heart. I simply showed you how He does it. It is not some "hey presto" thing. I you want to believe in some hey presto moment and think your heart was in complete alignment with God's the second you were saved? Be my guest. No skin off my nose mate.



Go ahead, give us another dislike.

 

[cv5]

The ways of salvation and the Savior were illuminated by him in those verses. You didn't understand those verses, I guess. So, there is no choice - that was the point. God saves whom He chose to save because He wanted to save them and He owes no explanation or apology to anyone for it.

The comers are also the hearers, the choosers are the chosen, those who say "I DO" fulfill both Matt 26:27 and consequently John 6:37.....

Mat 26:27
Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you.

Jhn 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

 

[Rufus]

Yes to depend upon him of our own free will. Otherwise we are robots or animals with instinct that automatically pushes us in one direction.

Go learn what it means to be created in the image and likeness of God and what it means to be free indeed.

Freewill fell with Adam and is as dead as all his progeny. The human nature of man became corrupt and depraved and made all Adam's progeny helpless slaves to their evil natures.

And what do you think it means "to be free indeed"?

 

[cv5]

I get it. You don't understand the difference between that which is intellectual from that which is an expression of the heart. You don't know the difference between natural and spiritual.

If there is one absolute certainty in this universe, it is that you don't "get it"......

 

[rogerg]

I'm not changing anything. I agree God gives us a new heart. I simply showed you how He does it. It is not some "hey presto" thing. I you want to believe in some hey presto moment and think your heart was in complete alignment with God's the second you were saved? Be my guest. No skin off my nose mate.



Go ahead, give us another dislike.

Yes, it is exactly "presto", otherwise we would be using a deceitful heart to get a not-deceitful heart which isn't possible to do. You're giving man involvement a role in a process which he clearly doesn't have. The verse does not state or imply anything close to what you're saying - you're adding to the verse. Do you have a problem with the word "give"? You had the same problem yesterday with being given belief.

 

[Rufus]

Some more information

“God has elected Christ as the means of salvation”. (Cf. Gal. 3:16). God’s choice was about the lineage through which the Messiah would come.

Romans 9:15 “For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” — Answered in section of verse 18.

In Romans 9:16, Paul is saying man (of Jewish descent) cannot be given the mercy/compassion of God solely and entirely based off their bloodline, ethnicity, as if they can will or work for His mercy/compassion of being a Jew. That is what Paul is saying in verse 16.

In Romans 9:17, God wanted his power and glory to be known for two different groups of people. One, for the Jewish people when they left egypt, they would say “God is so powerful, look at all the things that he did. This is the God that we serve. This is the God that we need to be faithful to.” He wanted his glory and power to be known so people would revere him, so people would see what kind of God he is, and that would certainly strengthen the faith of the Israelites. Two, it also strengthened the nations around them. Example, when the Israelites went to Canaan, they went to Jericho. And what they heard the people in Jericho saying is we've heard about the power of God, and so all these things were in the minds of the people. Rahab proves this “We have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea…” (Joshua 2:10).

Paul is showing the Jews who “the people of God” are, and is using OT examples of how others who were chosen (when it was supposed to be the firstborn chosen), yet God was making a point.

Firstborn (Gen. 25:31–34, 49:4).

Ishmael is the firstborn

God says: “No — My covenant line goes through Isaac.”

This is not about salvation.

It’s about who carries the covenant line that leads to the Messiah.

Jacob over Esau (vv. 10–13)

God says: “No — Jacob will be the covenant line.”

Again:
Not salvation.
Not eternal destinies.
This is about how God is structuring redemptive history.

What was the point? “You Jews should not be shocked that God is including Gentiles. God has always chosen unexpected groups or people to advance His covenant plan.”

Isaac instead of Ishmael. Ishmael was the first born, but God chose someone outside of the first born. Same for Jacob over Esau.

Even back then, God was showing He was not bound to the firstborn rule, and He has the sovereign freedom to choose the covenant line. This becomes the point Paul is making: Do not tell God who He can and cannot include, and it was to show His covenant purposes are not bound to flesh, birth order, or human expectation.

Rom. 9:18ff When a nation or individual conforms to God’s will by allowing Him to mold them (the clay) into vessels of mercy or honor that God has prepared beforehand for glory. Since God does not want anyone to perish, He gives the clay chances to want to decide what kind of vessel they will be. Anyone can choose to be a vessel of mercy/honor prepared beforehand for glory if they so choose based upon their obedience, or a vessel of wrath/dishonor based upon rebellion.

It doesn’t say God prepared before birth or God created them that way. So what has He prepared beforehand? He has prepared beforehand the result of what kind of vessel a nation or individual will be based upon their obedience or rebellion. We have the ability and decision to choose the kind of vessel the Potter makes us (as does a nation) which He has prepared beforehand based on our obedience or rebellion to Him.

God has sovereignly chosen what he will do regarding the clay, (sinner), in that he has chosen to respond to the clay, (sinner), according to its repentance or lack of repentance. By quoting the potter/clay metaphor Paul essentially tells the Jews that God will deal with men based on their repentance—as he has always said he would deal with them.

Isaiah 29:13-16; Jeremiah 18:1-12

The metaphor is distinguishing between two opposite classes of people - Believers and unbelievers, and emphasizes God's right to establish the standard of justification. The Jews were rejecting God's power to save men (the gospel, Rms. 1:16), and set out to establish their own way (10:1-3). We certainly have the power and responsibility to make ourselves vessels of honor, and our faith, or lack thereof, will determine which type of vessel we are.

Where does it say what you allege in Rom 9?

 

[cv5]

See the accounts of Abimelech and Balaam in the OT and Judas in the NT. Compatibilism at its finest....

I brought up Abimelech earlier and you promptly struck out.....
You have absolutely zero idea of the dynamics of those TWO scenarios.

 

[brightfame52]

FWers are also loathe to believe that the New Covenant is unconditional and unilateral in nature.

And it's beneficiaries are a specific people, the house of Israel and Judah. And it's not the physical ethnic people.

 

[sawdust]

The ways of salvation and the Savior were illuminated by him in those verses. You didn't understand those verses, I guess. So, there is no choice - that was the point. God saves whom He chose to save because He wanted to save them and He owes no explanation or apology to anyone for it.

Sorry but I don't see where it says God forces you to be saved in those passages only that He is the Saviour.

 

[Rufus]

The Abimelech story I'm not as familiar with but the Balaam story I know well. The problem with your interpretation is that what was determined and what was chosen were not the same thing at the same time. Balaam made a choice to go but God determined He would only speak what God told him. If it is was both simultaneously then Balaam should have not gone but gone and said what he wanted and only what God wanted. I'm sure you're smart enough to see that scenario cannot work.

The Balaam story is very interesting as we see God's will at work in three ways.

First His stated will. Don't go Balaam.
Second His permissive will. All right, go ahead and do what you want. (you will have to learn the hard way)
Third His sovereign will. You will say what I want and nothing else no matter what you think to do.

Sorry for the aside there but ultimately Balaam does not solve the problem of simultaneously being made to do something and having choice which is what the poster seemed to imply was happening.

To be honest I'm no longer even sure that is what he was saying as his words are quite confusing most of the time.

Either way do you think God made you believe the Gospel (as in forced on you like in Balaam's case) or did you believe of your own free will?

Are you familiar with Judas' story and all the prophecies regarding him? You can get up to speed on Abimelech in Gen 20.

 

[Genez]

In God's eyes the elect were as spotless and perfect and holy as their Federal Head.

That is so because God in His omniscience sees you as you are in your resurrected state.
That is positional truth. Not yet experiential truth.

In the mean while, we are either racking up approval, or disproval for our choices we now make which will determine if we have rewards added to our resurrection body.

We can not lose our salvation.

But, we can lose out on eternal glories in Christ because of our present sense of self importance over riding God's desire to humble us and instruct us into thinking with sound doctrine for every area of our lives.

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. ​

If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, ​

their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be ​

revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has ​

been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will ​

suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.​

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1 Corinthians 3:11-15​