Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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Did you read and understand the verses I posted to you? What do you think they are saying?

I've already explained I don't see how they provide an answer to being made to do something while simultaneously having a choice. That's the issue, if you could explain why you think those verses are a solution I might be able to discuss this with a deeper understanding from where you are coming.

As far as the verses you quoted in Luke they are the prophetic utterance of Zechariah(?) where He promised the coming of a Messiah and Luke is proclaiming "here He is".

How does that tie into the problem?
 
Wrong, God unilaterally gives the new heart - man is only its recipient.

[Eze 36:26 KJV] 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

FWers are also loathe to believe that the New Covenant is unconditional and unilateral in nature.
 
Those verses were about which occurs first: salvation or faith/belief. They clearly tell us that salvation (forgiveness of sins) occurs first with everything else that accompanies salvation, such as faith/belief, as a result of, or after it - they do not immediately relate to the
2 Co 4 discussion, if that's what you're thinking.

Well they might say that through your lens but I don't see that. I see it is a proclamation that the promised Messiah is here. I see no talk of making people believe or even of being given a choice, just a statement of fact.
 
Ah but they can only digest the word only if God knows they have become wholesome after they eat the word, but to be honest lol, the phrase you can eat my words is something to Aussie women would probably say in cat fight m 🤐

Again, circular.
 
Some more information

“God has elected Christ as the means of salvation”. (Cf. Gal. 3:16). God’s choice was about the lineage through which the Messiah would come.

Romans 9:15 “For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” — Answered in section of verse 18.

In Romans 9:16, Paul is saying man (of Jewish descent) cannot be given the mercy/compassion of God solely and entirely based off their bloodline, ethnicity, as if they can will or work for His mercy/compassion of being a Jew. That is what Paul is saying in verse 16.

In Romans 9:17, God wanted his power and glory to be known for two different groups of people. One, for the Jewish people when they left egypt, they would say “God is so powerful, look at all the things that he did. This is the God that we serve. This is the God that we need to be faithful to.” He wanted his glory and power to be known so people would revere him, so people would see what kind of God he is, and that would certainly strengthen the faith of the Israelites. Two, it also strengthened the nations around them. Example, when the Israelites went to Canaan, they went to Jericho. And what they heard the people in Jericho saying is we've heard about the power of God, and so all these things were in the minds of the people. Rahab proves this “We have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea…” (Joshua 2:10).

Paul is showing the Jews who “the people of God” are, and is using OT examples of how others who were chosen (when it was supposed to be the firstborn chosen), yet God was making a point.

Firstborn (Gen. 25:31–34, 49:4).

Ishmael is the firstborn

God says: “No — My covenant line goes through Isaac.”

This is not about salvation.

It’s about who carries the covenant line that leads to the Messiah.

Jacob over Esau (vv. 10–13)

God says: “No — Jacob will be the covenant line.”

Again:
Not salvation.
Not eternal destinies.
This is about how God is structuring redemptive history.

What was the point? “You Jews should not be shocked that God is including Gentiles. God has always chosen unexpected groups or people to advance His covenant plan.”

Isaac instead of Ishmael. Ishmael was the first born, but God chose someone outside of the first born. Same for Jacob over Esau.

Even back then, God was showing He was not bound to the firstborn rule, and He has the sovereign freedom to choose the covenant line. This becomes the point Paul is making: Do not tell God who He can and cannot include, and it was to show His covenant purposes are not bound to flesh, birth order, or human expectation.

Rom. 9:18ff When a nation or individual conforms to God’s will by allowing Him to mold them (the clay) into vessels of mercy or honor that God has prepared beforehand for glory. Since God does not want anyone to perish, He gives the clay chances to want to decide what kind of vessel they will be. Anyone can choose to be a vessel of mercy/honor prepared beforehand for glory if they so choose based upon their obedience, or a vessel of wrath/dishonor based upon rebellion.

It doesn’t say God prepared before birth or God created them that way. So what has He prepared beforehand? He has prepared beforehand the result of what kind of vessel a nation or individual will be based upon their obedience or rebellion. We have the ability and decision to choose the kind of vessel the Potter makes us (as does a nation) which He has prepared beforehand based on our obedience or rebellion to Him.

God has sovereignly chosen what he will do regarding the clay, (sinner), in that he has chosen to respond to the clay, (sinner), according to its repentance or lack of repentance. By quoting the potter/clay metaphor Paul essentially tells the Jews that God will deal with men based on their repentance—as he has always said he would deal with them.

Isaiah 29:13-16; Jeremiah 18:1-12

The metaphor is distinguishing between two opposite classes of people - Believers and unbelievers, and emphasizes God's right to establish the standard of justification. The Jews were rejecting God's power to save men (the gospel, Rms. 1:16), and set out to establish their own way (10:1-3). We certainly have the power and responsibility to make ourselves vessels of honor, and our faith, or lack thereof, will determine which type of vessel we are.
 
Agree. But it isn't hidden because Bibles aren't available or the gospel isn't being preached. It's hidden because their minds are veiled, keeping understanding of the gospel from them.
Nope. All of your theories and pretentions are dead wrong 100% of the time. As are the other Calvinists on this thread.
Like literally never correct on any matter of soteriology............ever.

Everybody knew in ages past, same as everybody knows now. And the end result will be the same, both for the believers/receivers and the deniers and scoffers. Those who CHOOSE LIFE will live. Those who CHOOSE to perish will perish.

Deu 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

2Pe 3:3
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after ***their*** own lusts,

2Pe 3:5
For this ***they*** willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

****************************************************************************************
And word up to all of you Calvinists out there, God is never to blame.

2Pe 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
 
I've already explained I don't see how they provide an answer to being made to do something while simultaneously having a choice. That's the issue, if you could explain why you think those verses are a solution I might be able to discuss this with a deeper understanding from where you are coming.

As far as the verses you quoted in Luke they are the prophetic utterance of Zechariah(?) where He promised the coming of a Messiah and Luke is proclaiming "here He is".

How does that tie into the problem?

The ways of salvation and the Savior were illuminated by him in those verses. You didn't understand those verses, I guess. So, there is no choice - that was the point. God saves whom He chose to save because He wanted to save them and He owes no explanation or apology to anyone for it.
 
Well they might say that through your lens but I don't see that. I see it is a proclamation that the promised Messiah is here. I see no talk of making people believe or even of being given a choice, just a statement of fact.

You can't see that they first have their sins forgiven (saved) from which they gain knowledge of salvation? You can't see that?
 
whatever Trevor 🙂

When backed into a logic-corner. One that would demand you get honest?
You always show flippant insensitivity and vaporize.

Seems to me your quest is more for video game playing than possessing a serious hunger for truth.
For you have shown that truth does not really matter to you if truth ruins winning your game.
You just fluff it off and wait until it is forgotten about.

It is like what the Roman soldiers did who gambled over the clothes of Jesus hanging on the Cross.
There is no apparent sense of the sacredness of what you are dealing with.

The Word of God is the Mind of Christ!
It is what Jesus constantly thought with.
 
Correct to give knowledge of salvation they already have because their sin has been forgiven. That's good news when you come into the knowledge of it. It agrees with Eph 1:13

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Notice it was their salvation before they heard about it. Notice the word Your, that is possession.

It was theirs eternally/objectively/positionally prior to becoming theirs temporally/subjectively/existentially.
 
I don't know about "Limited Atonement" but there sure appears to be quite a bit of limited vision. ;)

We got tongue jabbering Pentecostals.
We have legalism with Seven Day Adventists and Baptists.
We have quasi paganism with the Catholic Church...
And, many other variables that lock minds closed and shut.

The way to destruction Jesus said is broad and wide.
Destruction of the means to reaching super grace living in Christ.
"Life more abundantly."

Satan is the thief that steals away their capacity to reason and caps it down tight with church dogma.


The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy;
I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. John 10:10​
They think they have won while they are being robbed.​
 
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You conveniently forget that it was this very same prophet who told the Israelites that they would not be able to serve the Lord (v. 19)!

What part of not able can't you understand? Have you lost your eyesight because the evil one has blinded you?

Did you learn about the snoring emoticon from your elitist Piled High and Dry bible "scholars" whose knowledge of the scriptures is likely more shallow than a mud puddle?
 
What a load of useless pseudo-intellectual pseudo-philosophical rubbish.

Grace was promised and given to the elect in ETERNITY. In God's eyes the elect were as spotless and perfect and holy as their Federal Head. You obviously don't believe in the Mystical Union, do you?
 
Wrong, God unilaterally gives the new heart - man is only its recipient.

[Eze 36:26 KJV] 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Strewth! The lengths people keep going to.

If it is God's word producing the new heart who do you think is giving the new heart? How much do you think your heart would have changed if you believed the Gospel but then never associated with anything Christian again, never read or studied the word, never mixed with Christian friends and spoke of God's workings in your life?

You assume God "waves His magic wand" and "hey presto" a new heart. It doesn't work like that. We change over time as we get to know the Lord and learn to delight ourselves in Him because of who He is and in turn He gives to us His desires so our values line up with His. In this way we have a new heart from the Lord.
 
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I don't know about "Limited Atonement" but there sure appears to be quite a bit of limited vision. ;)
I call it the "trailer park boys" vision impairment syndrome. Caused by "trailer park boys" type scholarship.
And yet, for all of their failures, the Calvinist boys have no desire for advancement, progress, betterment and upwardly mobility.

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