Loss of salvation???

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You can heckle with your snide criticisms, but they are groundless diatribe.

MM

So, Israel wasn't referred to as dogs, just Gentiles? And Israel was never said to be more corrupt than the Gentiles? And Jesus wasn't overturing the language and pointing out what He said was "great faith" in a Gentile woman and later in a Gentile man of whom Jesus said He had not found such great faith in all of Israel?

Surely you must see there is more to this "Gentiles as dogs" stuff you speak of. And surely you must leave some room for Messiah to know His Salvation was always for more than Israel.
 
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Hi Rogerg,

Your insight or instincts are very good…

Salvation was fully accomplished at the cross. Through Christ’s atonement, all ungodly men were justified. The moment anyone rests in Christ—placing faith in His faithfulness—their spirit is reborn.

Once we are justified (declared righteous before God), we are invited to respond to His gift of salvation by entering into a Spirit-led transformation. This ongoing work of the Holy Spirit shapes us into Christ’s likeness and ultimately culminates in glorification—the complete removal of our sin nature.

Yet some, though justified, resist this gift and do not receive the Spirit’s transforming work. For them, Scripture describes a humbling process: relational separation, exile, and suffering under God’s chastisement. Even so, His grace remains. In time, they too will be brought to glorification, though “as through fire” (Romans 8:30).

It is also important to recognize that certain expressions often read into Scripture—such as “those He chose” or “eternal fire”—are rooted in Greek linguistic constructs. These categories were foreign to the Hebrew worldview and are not consistently taught from Genesis through Revelation. The Hebrew Scriptures emphasize covenant, relational faithfulness, and God’s refining discipline, rather than abstract philosophical terms that can obscure the original meaning.

Eternal Fire


Hebrew Scriptures (Genesis–Malachi) do not use this phrase. Instead, they emphasize God’s refining fire (e.g., Malachi 3:2–3) and temporal judgments (e.g., Isaiah 66:24), not an abstract eternal torment.


Those He Chose


In Hebrew thought, “chosen” is covenantal: Israel is chosen as God’s people (Deuteronomy 7:6–8). It is relational and rooted in God’s promises, not a philosophical category of predestination.


Genesis to Revelation


From Genesis through Revelation, the dominant theme is covenant, faithfulness, and transformation.


The concepts of eternal fire and chosen are Greek linguistic constructs that are not affirmed as central themes throughout the entire Bible.


The reason there is ambiguity is the Greek linguistic construct is abstract vs Hebraic construct which is concrete (rooted in Covenant).


The Greek Gospel is a different Gospel…the one Paul warned about.


God's Salvation was instant at Christ's Death/Resurection–not my belief, not my faith and not dependant on my faithfulness…only His!

The King James Version stands out as the best translation I’ve seen. Most of us don’t read Hebrew, so we’re left with translations that—whether by design or accident—add to or take away from the original intent, so every doctrine must be tested against the covenantal thread that runs through all of Scripture.

That thread begins before Creation, carries through the story of Israel, is fulfilled in Christ, and stretches on through to the New Heavens and the New Earth.

If a teaching doesn’t align with that covenantal theme, it cannot stand. The covenant is the measure, the anchor, the lens through which God’s Word holds together from Genesis to Revelation.

Here’s a letter I recently wrote that explains what I am meaning to say best, I think…

Hi J,

Thank you so much for all your writings...

I know that you have come to believe the Greek NT is a translation from the original Hebrew NT; I emphatically agree.

I also believe the Greek NT linguistic framework introduces a subtle but profound shift by presenting a gospel that emphasizes human faithfulness—belief, endurance, performance— (see Paul's Warning) rather than the unilateral covenants woven throughout Scripture, where God alone initiates, sustains, and fulfills.

I believe the Hellenized Gospel redirects the focus of Who's Faithfulness ensures our Salvation from His Faithfulness to "my faithfulness". God gifted us all His Love, Grace and Mercy as our Kinsman Redeemer by the Atoning Death and Life of His Son; and those He Justified He Also Glorified period (Hebrew Gospel-concrete).

The Greek NT Gospel goes like this...Christ Crucified + my faith, belief and endurance...but we already miserably failed the Mosaic Covenant and so if our Salvation rests on anything other than Christ Crucified + nothing we are all doomed.

The Hebrew Gospel is this, God Redeemed all mankind (His Image) for His Name Sake and His Great Love for us through Christ Jesus. The doctrines that arise from the Greek like OSAS, election where there's a never-ending debate because the Greek supplies verses that support both sides of the argument (abstract thought) are totally resolved from the Hebraic perspective (concrete thought).

(True Gospel)
Covenant Promise = Christ crucified = Atonement = Justified = Sanctified = Glorified (purged of sin nature)

You point out many misunderstandings we have about what the Word of God is saying because people don't understand Hebraic culture and how the Covenants were established, because of this I have come to believe commonly held Salvation precepts are completely wrong (Greek-ism).

I am not asserting a different Gospel that Paul warned about (Christ Crucified + anything) instead I am simply uncovering the Hebraic Gospel that has been revealed from Genesis to Revelations (Christ Crucified + nothing).

Only a translation (like the Hellenized Gospel) would introduce subtle errors like when Jesus says to do whatever the Pharisees say to do, strip out YHVH in place of Lord, insert Word, Word, Word in place of Son, Son, Son and worst of all skew the NT Gospel to be a me-centric Gospel of "my faith-Faithfulness vs His Faith-Faithfulness.

We are told to rest in His Covenant Faithfulness, and so we have big problems if our Salvation is dependent on ours.
 
Since I'm unfamiliar with your preferred Bible translation, I can't comment on details of it. However, I share your concerns about translations that emphasize personal responsibility in salvation rather than it being a gift from God bestowed upon those whom He had chosen for it. While I do not claim expertise in the languages used in the Bible, I have observed that many translations introduce ambiguity through their use of phrases such as "faith in Christ”, which can be interpreted as requiring human initiative for salvation in contrast to "faith of Christ" which more accurately credits the work of salvation to Christ Himself, with believers strictly being its recipients. This distinction is significant. The King James Version (KJV) generally maintains consistency with this doctrine by using " faith of Christ" over "faith in Christ." Those who insist a contribution from man is required for salvation remove Christ as the Savior and insert themselves into that role.
Additionally, there appears to be confusion surrounding phrases like "shalt be saved" or "will be saved” (depending upon translation), which phrase is in the future tense. These are often misunderstood to suggest that salvation follows sometime after believing, yet this interpretation introduces logical inconsistencies and is self-contradictory: if salvation were contingent solely on belief, it must of necessity occur immediately upon belief, rather than in the future as the tense demands; that is, the tenses must be the same not different. Such misunderstandings likely arise out of the varying contextual meanings of "saved" within Scripture, where it can refer either to one’s spiritual state or of being spared divine wrath at the final judgement. My view is that when "shall be saved” is encountered, it should first be interpreted as deliverance (saved) from God's wrath at final judgment. This means that salvation – in the context of a change to someone’s spiritual state - must occur before, not after, believing with believing coming from that.
While I am unable to comment directly on your Bible of choice without further review of it, I recognize and align with all of the scriptural doctrines you have thus far stated. It is my assessment that KJV addresses many of these concerns with greater fidelity than do the other translations.
I noticed the doctrine of election was not explicitly mentioned in your posts, though perhaps implied. From my perspective, that doctrine is foundational and essential to salvation with it being an act of God’s grace alone. If any aspect of salvation were dependent on human action, the integrity of grace would be fatally compromised.
I would also add that regardless of biblical version, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the single greatest prerequisite to arriving at correct biblical interpretation, without which, it cannot be achieved through the intellect or wisdom of the “natural man”.
So, to tie this back to the thread’s topic, since salvation is given solely and freely by God’s grace through Christ the Savior, by being through Him alone, it is not possible to be lost through or by the actions of man as it is not given by the actions of man.
In summary, I unequivocally agree your posts that receiving salvation is entirely from Christ and is apart from any human contribution, or to summarize: “Christ Alone + Nothing…”
These verses contrast the differences between how the word "saved" is applied within Scripture. Both tenses cannot be correct in terms of change to someone’s spiritual status or state, so they therefore must mean different things.+

Future tense: saved from God's wrath:
[Rom 5:9 KJV] 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
[Act 16:31 KJV] 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
[Rom 10:9 KJV] 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Present tense: change to one's spiritual status or state:
[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
(BTW, the “through faith” in above in Eph 2:8, is Christ’s faith not man’s faith, just as you mentioned with 1 Pet 1:4 &5, in a prior post)
[Eph 2:5 KJV] 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Your insight or instincts are very good…

Salvation was fully accomplished at the cross. Through Christ’s atonement, all ungodly men were justified. The moment anyone rests in Christ—placing faith in His faithfulness—their spirit is reborn.

Once we are justified (declared righteous before God), we are invited to respond to His gift of salvation by entering into a Spirit-led transformation. This ongoing work of the Holy Spirit shapes us into Christ’s likeness and ultimately culminates in glorification—the complete removal of our sin nature.

Yet some, though justified, resist this gift and do not receive the Spirit’s transforming work. For them, Scripture describes a humbling process: relational separation, exile, and suffering under God’s chastisement. Even so, His grace remains. In time, they too will be brought to glorification, though “as through fire” (Romans 8:30).

It is also important to recognize that certain expressions often read into Scripture—such as “those He chose” or “eternal fire”—are rooted in Greek linguistic constructs. These categories were foreign to the Hebrew worldview and are not consistently taught from Genesis through Revelation. The Hebrew Scriptures emphasize covenant, relational faithfulness, and God’s refining discipline, rather than abstract philosophical terms that can obscure the original meaning.

Eternal Fire

Hebrew Scriptures (Genesis–Malachi) do not use this phrase. Instead, they emphasize God’s refining fire (e.g., Malachi 3:2–3) and temporal judgments (e.g., Isaiah 66:24), not an abstract eternal torment.

Those He Chose

In Hebrew thought, “chosen” is covenantal: Israel is chosen as God’s people (Deuteronomy 7:6–8). It is relational and rooted in God’s promises, not a philosophical category of predestination.

Genesis to Revelation

From Genesis through Revelation, the dominant theme is covenant, faithfulness, and transformation.

The concepts of eternal fire and chosen are Greek linguistic constructs that are not affirmed as central themes throughout the entire Bible.

The reason there is ambiguity is the Greek linguistic construct is abstract vs Hebraic construct which is concrete (rooted in Covenant).

The Greek Gospel is a different Gospel…the one Paul warned about.

God's Salvation was instant at Christ's Death/Resurection–not my belief, not my faith and not dependant on my faithfulness…only His!

The King James Version stands out as the best translation I’ve seen. Most of us don’t read Hebrew, so we’re left with translations that—whether by design or accident—add to or take away from the original intent, so every doctrine must be tested against the covenantal thread that runs through all of Scripture.

That thread begins before Creation, carries through the story of Israel, is fulfilled in Christ, and stretches on through to the New Heavens and the New Earth.

If a teaching doesn’t align with that covenantal theme, it cannot stand. The covenant is the measure, the anchor, the lens through which God’s Word holds together from Genesis to Revelation.
 
So, Israel wasn't referred to as dogs, just Gentiles? And Israel was never said to be more corrupt than the Gentiles? And Jesus wasn't overturing the language and pointing out what He said was "great faith" in a Gentile woman and later in a Gentile man of whom Jesus said He had not found such great faith in all of Israel?

Surely you must see there is more to this "Gentiles as dogs" stuff you speak of. And surely you must leave some room for Messiah to know His Salvation was always for more than Israel.

see my post to rogerg 4,662
 
Assuming...what? Jesus could not possibly have been speaking about Gentiles, although Replacement Theology buffs routinely shove Gentiles into whatever nitch and cranny that fits their personal liking. Gentiles were dogs before salvation had come unto them after the middlle wall of partition was brought down. Scripture bears this out as a defense against the gross misapplications some apply to key verses isolated from a systematic study on the subject. There were many Jews in other nations of the world yet to hear His gospel.

MM

Hi MM...I think we align more than most here...see my post to rogerg 4,662
 
Who said anything about 1% doubt? Either we believe that Jesus Christ is an ALL-sufficient Savior or else we believe that He is an IN-sufficient Savior. I personally believe that Jesus Christ is an ALL-sufficient Savior, 100%. I believe that Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:24-26; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) No supplements needed.

The way I see it, nobody will ever suffer shame for, believing in/trusting in, the finished work of Christ!! :)
 
The way I see it, nobody will ever suffer shame for, believing in/trusting in, the finished work of Christ!! :)

Your insight or instincts are very good…

Salvation was fully accomplished at the cross. Through Christ’s atonement, all ungodly men were justified. The moment anyone rests in Christ—placing faith in His faithfulness—their spirit is reborn.

Once we are justified (declared righteous before God), we are invited to respond to His gift of salvation by entering into a Spirit-led transformation. This ongoing work of the Holy Spirit shapes us into Christ’s likeness and ultimately culminates in glorification—the complete removal of our sin nature.

Yet some, though justified, resist this gift and do not receive the Spirit’s transforming work. For them, Scripture describes a humbling process: relational separation, exile, and suffering under God’s chastisement. Even so, His grace remains. In time, they too will be brought to glorification, though “as through fire” (Romans 8:30).

It is also important to recognize that certain expressions often read into Scripture—such as “those He chose” or “eternal fire”—are rooted in Greek linguistic constructs. These categories were foreign to the Hebrew worldview and are not consistently taught from Genesis through Revelation. The Hebrew Scriptures emphasize covenant, relational faithfulness, and God’s refining discipline, rather than abstract philosophical terms that can obscure the original meaning.

Eternal Fire


Hebrew Scriptures (Genesis–Malachi) do not use this phrase. Instead, they emphasize God’s refining fire (e.g., Malachi 3:2–3) and temporal judgments (e.g., Isaiah 66:24), not an abstract eternal torment.


Those He Chose


In Hebrew thought, “chosen” is covenantal: Israel is chosen as God’s people (Deuteronomy 7:6–8). It is relational and rooted in God’s promises, not a philosophical category of predestination.


Genesis to Revelation


From Genesis through Revelation, the dominant theme is covenant, faithfulness, and transformation.


The concepts of eternal fire and chosen are Greek linguistic constructs that are not affirmed as central themes throughout the entire Bible.


The reason there is ambiguity is the Greek linguistic construct is abstract vs Hebraic construct which is concrete (rooted in Covenant).


The Greek Gospel is a different Gospel…the one Paul warned about.


God's Salvation was instant at Christ's Death/Resurection–not my belief, not my faith and not dependant on my faithfulness…only His!

The King James Version stands out as the best translation I’ve seen. Most of us don’t read Hebrew, so we’re left with translations that—whether by design or accident—add to or take away from the original intent, so every doctrine must be tested against the covenantal thread that runs through all of Scripture.

That thread begins before Creation, carries through the story of Israel, is fulfilled in Christ, and stretches on through to the New Heavens and the New Earth.

If a teaching doesn’t align with that covenantal theme, it cannot stand. The covenant is the measure, the anchor, the lens through which God’s Word holds together from Genesis to Revelation.

Here’s a letter I recently wrote that explains what I am meaning to say best, I think…

Hi J,

Thank you so much for all your writings...

I know that you have come to believe the Greek NT is a translation from the original Hebrew NT; I emphatically agree.

I also believe the Greek NT linguistic framework introduces a subtle but profound shift by presenting a gospel that emphasizes human faithfulness—belief, endurance, performance— (see Paul's Warning) rather than the unilateral covenants woven throughout Scripture, where God alone initiates, sustains, and fulfills.

I believe the Hellenized Gospel redirects the focus of Who's Faithfulness ensures our Salvation from His Faithfulness to "my faithfulness". God gifted us all His Love, Grace and Mercy as our Kinsman Redeemer by the Atoning Death and Life of His Son; and those He Justified He Also Glorified period (Hebrew Gospel-concrete).

The Greek NT Gospel goes like this...Christ Crucified + my faith, belief and endurance...but we already miserably failed the Mosaic Covenant and so if our Salvation rests on anything other than Christ Crucified + nothing we are all doomed.

The Hebrew Gospel is this, God Redeemed all mankind (His Image) for His Name Sake and His Great Love for us through Christ Jesus. The doctrines that arise from the Greek like OSAS, election where there's a never-ending debate because the Greek supplies verses that support both sides of the argument (abstract thought) are totally resolved from the Hebraic perspective (concrete thought).

(True Gospel)
Covenant Promise = Christ crucified = Atonement = Justified = Sanctified = Glorified (purged of sin nature)

You point out many misunderstandings we have about what the Word of God is saying because people don't understand Hebraic culture and how the Covenants were established, because of this I have come to believe commonly held Salvation precepts are completely wrong (Greek-ism).

I am not asserting a different Gospel that Paul warned about (Christ Crucified + anything) instead I am simply uncovering the Hebraic Gospel that has been revealed from Genesis to Revelations (Christ Crucified + nothing).

Only a translation (like the Hellenized Gospel) would introduce subtle errors like when Jesus says to do whatever the Pharisees say to do, strip out YHVH in place of Lord, insert Word, Word, Word in place of Son, Son, Son and worst of all skew the NT Gospel to be a me-centric Gospel of "my faith-Faithfulness vs His Faith-Faithfulness.

We are told to rest in His Covenant Faithfulness, and so we have big problems if our Salvation is dependent on ours.
 
We are told to rest in His Covenant Faithfulness, and so we have big problems if our Salvation is dependent on ours.[/QUOTE]
Somehow untold millions of people are saved and born again through the preaching of the gospel. I do not agree with your objections. There is one gospel. People are not saved only by certain verses or any kind of ritual. The Ethiopian Eunuch came to Christ one way and Paul another. But they both came to Christ. One man I follow tells the people he witnesses to to quote Romans 10:9. He's not a formal evangelist, but he leads at least 100 people a year to Jesus. I was led by what is called "The Roman Road".
 
We are told to rest in His Covenant Faithfulness, and so we have big problems if our Salvation is dependent on ours.
Somehow untold millions of people are saved and born again through the preaching of the gospel. I do not agree with your objections. There is one gospel. People are not saved only by certain verses or any kind of ritual. The Ethiopian Eunuch came to Christ one way and Paul another. But they both came to Christ. One man I follow tells the people he witnesses to to quote Romans 10:9. He's not a formal evangelist, but he leads at least 100 people a year to Jesus. I was led by what is called "The Roman Road".[/QUOTE]

Paul is speaking to the church he started, Romans 10:9 he is telling them to get out and confess JESUS to stay saved. You really should read all of that chapter,

Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

So how does confessing HIM remove our sins or fill us with HIS spirit?

Can't enter Heaven with sin!!

Can't enter Heaven without the Holy Ghost!

John 3:5.
 
So, Israel wasn't referred to as dogs, just Gentiles? And Israel was never said to be more corrupt than the Gentiles? And Jesus wasn't overturing the language and pointing out what He said was "great faith" in a Gentile woman and later in a Gentile man of whom Jesus said He had not found such great faith in all of Israel?

Surely you must see there is more to this "Gentiles as dogs" stuff you speak of. And surely you must leave some room for Messiah to know His Salvation was always for more than Israel.

I never said that. Of course Israel was at times worse than the pagan nations around them. Jerusalem has been rebuilt at least 33 times through the centuries because of our unfaithfulness through the centuries. No argument there. None of this is about Israel ever being better than any other peoples. What matters most is who was chosen by the One who created us all.

At the time of Christ walking this earth, however, He referred to Israel as His sheep and Gentiles as dogs. If we look at the conversation between Jesus and the Canaanite woman, it wasn't until after she worshipped Him that He began to respond with the imagery of the children's bread. The Lord always responded to faith, especially that which He considered greater than what He found in all of Israel.

Additionally, I never said salvation was not for all mankind. What I actually said is that Gentiles, before the coming down ofnthat middle wall of partition, had to become Jews for salvation and to become partakers of the blessings of Abraham.

Why do you persist in misrepresenting what I have actually stated in order to remain snide? The straw man arguments you present are not representative of anything oth ernthan what you assume between the lines of what I actally state. Why not simply ask rather than to assume?

MM