still no answer from you as to why God makes people believe, so no sir, you do know what I mean but refuse to acknowledge the truth out of your stubborn pride,
Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
- Thread starter LifelongLearner
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I would say they (the Rom.1 type) heard the truth but didn't learn in the sense of how we describe "taking it to heart". Within the John 6 passage I think Jesus is referring to learning as those who trust the data to be true and rely on it.
They know He exists from conscience and creation. They hear His voice and learn from Him by personal revelation...Wait, I think I get it. Suddenly the "all" actually becomes all?
Only those who believe learn from the Father, they learn He exists, they learn He is good, they learn He is merciful and when they see Christ (hear the Gospel) they recognise the Father and come.
Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Matthew 16:18.
Why do you always ignore that God showed them that truth? Just because God used the creation to speak doesn't mean they came to the conclusion God existed by their own intelligence. If they had? They would have owned that truth for man loves nothing more than his own thoughts.
Rom.1:19
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
I was shown in the Greek that what they came to know was the equivalent of epignosis.
They actually knew it to be true.
That is why it says they are without excuse.
That's because He doesn't make people believe. Why would He ask us to do something and then turn around and do it Himself?
Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
There's a difference between revelation that comes from natural means and supernatural. Jesus builds His church on supernatural revelation from the Father of who He is. That's why Jesus makes the distinction in Matthew 16:18.
The only people who do not hear the gospel broadcast are those who tuned out, this being their conscious willful choice. This boilerplate Biblical doctrine described infallibly from cover to cover.
[Zec 7:11 NKJV] 11 "But they refused to heed, shrugged their shoulders, and stopped their ears so that they could not hear.
[Act 7:57 NKJV] 57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord;
Mat 21:32 - “For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him; but tax collectors and harlots believed him; and when you saw it, you did not afterward relent and believe him.
Wrong again. Faith doesn't come from audibly hearing the gospel. If it did, the Bible would say...faith comes by hearing the word of God. Instead, it says...faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. That is the power of the gospel Paul was referring to. Notice, it is only the power of God unto salvation for those who actually believe.
Interesting. I thought epignosis was more than simply knowing something to be true but is more about trusting the data to be true.
I shall have to think more on this.
Or are you saying their knowledge was like epignosis but not actual epignosis? Iow, they knew the data with certainty but rejected it anyway?
Reminds me of The Screwtape Letters. Strewth that was a hard read. It was like trying to read a book backwards.
I hear there are people who know coding really well and they use that knowledge to make computer viruses just because they can. Such evil!
Which is grace which is what we have said from the start. Grace always precedes man knowing anything or doing anything. Grace is God's power to see His will done according to His nature and character. Man receives it or rejects it and supplants it with a lie.
Acts 17:28
for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’
That has nothing to do with it, not building a Church here just showing God exists, it's not even personal at this stage (eternal power and Divine nature). The natural revelation is still said to be shown by God and you refuse to believe it.
All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him. Matthew 11 v 27
You still haven't reconciled Prov 11:1 with 22:20. If you claim that God doesn't detest men with perverse hearts in the latter verse, then to be consistent with yourself, you would also have to say that God doesn't detest sin in the former text. But even that wouldn't help you since there are numerous other passages that teach that God hates sinners!
And Jesus never contradicts scripture! What He did was exert his authority over his own Word and explain how those commands in the Law were perverted by the Jews. For example, in the "eye for an eye" command, the Jews abused and misused that commandment by making retribution a personal issue to be handled by the vicitim when in fact it was a judicial matter that was supposed to be decided by the judges or the priests.
But thanks for revealing your wicked heart to us since you obviously think God can lie.