God's design for relationship is arranged marriage, incompatible with modern society

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That was neither my approach nor my intention, and I'm no group leader, that profile setting must be a genuine mistake. I'm not like that in other aspects of bible study, I'm only exceptionally passionate on this one topic in particular.

Alrighty, thanks for clearing that up!

If you don't mind me asking, what IS your approach/intention in all this? Because you're coming across like "Hey guys, romance is dangerous and unspiritual, so let's all decide to stay single so we can be miserable together".

Mind you, most of us here aren't miserable. But I kinda get the impression that you are trending in that direction. Do you think you could steer the conversation in a more positive direction and maybe learn something from what people say? It would mean actually listening without arguing which definitely isn't your strong suit but we all gotta start somewhere. I believe in you! 😎👍
 
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Alrighty, thanks for clearing that up!

If you don't mind me asking, what IS your approach/intention in all this? Because you're coming across like "Hey guys, romance is dangerous and unspiritual, so let's all decide to stay single so we can be miserable together".

Mind you, most of us here aren't miserable. But I kinda get the impression that you are trending in that direction. Do you think you could steer the conversation in a more positive direction and maybe learn something from what people say? It would mean actually listening without arguing which definitely isn't your strong suit but we all gotta start somewhere. I believe in you! 😎👍

I'm by no means being miserable, I'm single and alone but never lonely, my hands and mind are always occupied. I'm here to make a case on the biblical meaning of singleness, whether this is my own making or fate, and most importantly, whether romance, marriage and kids are absolute milestones of life, whether they are a necessary rite of passage to adulthood, whether they are universal boxes to check, whether they're proofs of your spiritual growth - that's the impression you'll get from almost every church, regardless of denomination; if you fail to accomplesh these, if you're in your midlife and still single, not only are you a loser, your salvation is in question, you'll be marginalized and ignored, you'll be even blamed and shamed for the declining birth rate and perpetual adolescence phenomenon. My intention is to bust this narrative by analyzing God's original design of marriage and gift of celibacy, and my conclusion is that marriage is just one of the earthly blessings among others, it's a nicety but not a necessity. The "human race will go extinct" is totally fearmongering, what's really happening is a demographic shift. "There's a time to be born, and there's a time to die." It might not be good for man to be alone, but that's the fate Jesus, Paul and other prophets had suffered.
 
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I'm by no means being miserable, I'm single and alone but never lonely, my hands and mind are always occupied. I'm here to make a case on the biblical meaning of singleness, whether this is my own making or fate, and most importantly, whether romance, marriage and kids are absolute milestones of life, whether they are a necessary rite of passage to adulthood, whether they are universal boxes to check, whether they're proofs of your spiritual growth - that's the impression you'll get from almost every church, regardless of denomination; if you fail to accomplesh these, if you're in your midlife and still single, not only are you a loser, your salvation is in question, you'll be marginalized and ignored, you'll be even blamed and shamed for the declining birth rate and perpetual adolescence phenomenon. My intention is to bust this narrative by analyzing God's original design of marriage and gift of celibacy, and my conclusion is that marriage is just one of the earthly blessings among others, it's a nicety but not a necessity. The "human race will go extinct" is totally fearmongering, what's really happening is a demographic shift. "There's a time to be born, and there's a time to die." It might not be good for man to be alone, but that's the fate Jesus, Paul and other prophets had suffered.
Now that I can agree with, all of it. Yes some people put marriage on a pedestal as something that every person should aspire to. No it is not the universal solution some people make it out to be. No it is not required in order to be considered a real person, although some people think it is. I can agree with all of that.

But I still cannot agree with your second post in this thread.
 
I'm by no means being miserable, I'm single and alone but never lonely, my hands and mind are always occupied. I'm here to make a case on the biblical meaning of singleness, whether this is my own making or fate, and most importantly, whether romance, marriage and kids are absolute milestones of life, whether they are a necessary rite of passage to adulthood, whether they are universal boxes to check, whether they're proofs of your spiritual growth - that's the impression you'll get from almost every church, regardless of denomination; if you fail to accomplesh these, if you're in your midlife and still single, not only are you a loser, your salvation is in question, you'll be marginalized and ignored, you'll be even blamed and shamed for the declining birth rate and perpetual adolescence phenomenon. My intention is to bust this narrative by analyzing God's original design of marriage and gift of celibacy, and my conclusion is that marriage is just one of the earthly blessings among others, it's a nicety but not a necessity. The "human race will go extinct" is totally fearmongering, what's really happening is a demographic shift. "There's a time to be born, and there's a time to die." It might not be good for man to be alone, but that's the fate Jesus, Paul and other prophets had suffered.

I second @Lynx , I agree with all of this as well. It's not a matter of one being "holier" than the other, just a difference in callings.

I'm sure marriage matures a person in ways that singleness does not, but likewise singleness can cause a different kind of growth that married people do not experience.

From the way I read the Bible, they are equally valid callings. However, most pastors/churches seem to magnify marriage and marginalize singleness.
 
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I second @Lynx , I agree with all of this as well. It's not a matter of one being "holier" than the other, just a difference in callings.

I'm sure marriage matures a person in ways that singleness does not, but likewise singleness can cause a different kind of growth that married people do not experience.

From the way I read the Bible, they are equally valid callings. However, most pastors/churches seem to magnify marriage and marginalize singleness.
This is because the bible has everything to say about cultivating relationship in marriage, but nothing to say about modern dating, singles don't fit into this narrative, so it's convenient to prioritize married couples and diminish singleness as a "preparing period".
 
Now that I can agree with, all of it. Yes some people put marriage on a pedestal as something that every person should aspire to. No it is not the universal solution some people make it out to be. No it is not required in order to be considered a real person, although some people think it is. I can agree with all of that.

But I still cannot agree with your second post in this thread.
Well, you decide what "conform to Christ" and "imitate me (Paul)" mean to you. I've found mine in the church history.
 
Alright. It is taught that marriage is the first human institution designed and ordained by God, and just to clarify, this does NOT mean that everybody must get married, this is NOT an order, as most boomers and Gen Xers believe from their lived experience. Rather, it is a descriptive statement, that on a collective level, in any given human culture, family is the basic unit, and marriage is a fundational organization, even in the indigenous tribes in Amazon jungle or African savanna. As much as Adam and Eve are the ancestors of ALL mankind, not just born-again Christians or orthodox Jews, marriage is just what most human beings are hardwired to do.

Now if you ask what exactly is this design, the most common response you'll get is Gen. 2:24 - "man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh." This was quoted by Jesus in Matt. 19:5, in that context, Pharisees asked Him about the legality of no fault divorce, and he schooled them with the orginal design of marriage.

Now here's the kicker. If you read this verse carefully, it states, "be joined to his WIFE" - not soul mate, not girlfriend, not even fiancee, but WIFE, so it only applies to already married couple. When you're ALREADY married, it means that societally, economically and legally, you're no longer a part of your parents' household, you and your spouse are a new independent household. "Two become one flesh" means one thing and one thing only - consummation of marriage in the bedroom. This interpretation is based on 1 Cor. 6:12, in which apostle Paul warned that if you screw a harlot, you "become one flesh with her," also quoting Gen. 2:24. In that case, you don't leave your parents and marry her, nonetheless sexual intercouse has this emotionally bonding power, even though you only have sex with a hooker whom you barely know, you still become one flesh with her.

So it begs the question - how did you get married in the first place? Unfortunately, this is ignored by most Christians, including pastors and theologians, because there's no valid biblical instruction on dating, a relatively modern invention. The best advice they could offer is "dating a fellow born again Christian," but how do you know your partner is really born again, and what do you do when such a partner doesn't exist at all? The solution is to sutbly change Gen 2:24 with a modern romantic twist - "man shall be joined to his other half, and the two shall get married," assuming there is an "other half" for everyone, and only can you be complete and happy when you are united with your other half. But if you read the whole chapter, the real answer is in the previous verses:

"It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him." (Gen. 2:18)
"the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man." (Gen. 2:22)


Here're the three key points that are qutie a shock to modern minds: 1. God determined that it was not good for Adam to be alone, Adam didn't complain for being alone, he didn't ask God for a mate; 2. God made an equal partner "comparable" to Adam, not superior or inferior, which means neither a girl boss or a sex slave; 3. God brought Eve to Adam and joined them together. In essence, this was known as a betrothal, the ancient equivalent of obtaining a marriage license, marriage was determined, negotiated and arranged for you by your parents, a professional match maker or other offical, and usually done when you were a teenager; and when you do get married, you get a large amount of dowry as both a startup investment and an early inheritance.

This is the "cornorstone" model of marriage, that you start with marriage as a foundation, then you pursue your other life goals from there. But in that flawed understanding mentioned above, design for marriage is changed into design for dating, which is often against all three key points: YOU determined it's not good for you to be alone; YOU seek a partner based on look, feeling and status instead of shared faith and values; YOU go present yourself to them. And this has turned the cornorstone model into a "capstone" model, that after you have achieved every other goals - career, fame, house, you attract a mate with your achievements and top it off with marriage.

And this is why modern dating is quite a disaster, modern relationship is stressful and modern marriage is unhappy. They are fundemantally against God's design for marriage. I'm not saying this to advocate for arranged marriage, although it may work for lots of people, at least your parents or professional matchmakers are more reliable than any dating app. The obvious and convenient alternative, though, is laid out in Matt. 19:11-12:

But He said to them, “All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given: For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother’s womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He who is able to accept it, let him accept it.”

Translation in modern English: asexual, incel and volcel. Marriage, relationship and kids are certainly blessings, but not for everyone. If you struggle with singleness and loneliness, that is essentially a grief over unmet expectations. And like all other griefs, you go through the stages of denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and eventually you accept reality and get used to it.

PS: The reason that propelled me to write this is to rebuke the rampant idolatry of marriage and the marginalization of singles in almost every church, regardless of denomination. It was originally the churches' response to the sexual revolution and "free love" movement in the late 60s, but it had slowly morphed into a variant of prosperity gospel, now commonly known as "sexual prosperity gospel", "relational prosperity gospel" or "purity culture", it teaches or implies that God will reward your faith and dedication with a godly partner, good relationship and hot sex. You probably have heard the slogans ad nauseam - "sex is sanctified only within marriage," "true love waits," "save myself for marriage;" but in the listeners' ears, it's turned into a deal - "marriage is just a license to have sex;" "if I wait, I will have true love;" "if I save my virginity I will marry my cinderella/prince charming." Furthermore, this gives you the impression of work based salvation - salvation through Jesus PLUS marriage; salvation through Jesus PLUS spousal intimacy; salvation through Jesus PLUS kids; This kind of false advertising has mislead more than a generation, it must be exposed and stopped. Everybody is born as a single, nobody is entitled to a partner, singleness is not merely a "staging period" or "preparing period" for marriage because such an equally yoked partner for you may not exist, singleness by and of itself should be valued and appreciated as a spiritual gift.
I generally agree with your main argument(s). Marriage should be foundational as opposed to a trophy, sugar on top, a useful partner for a trip to Italy or like a yacht. Husband and wife should help each other do God's will, obey his commands like love God, one another, spread the gospel and encourage the work God is doing in us to be completed.

Thanks. Sorry I can't relate, I have no desire for any girl, nor do I know anyone personally. All that I'm saying is that marriage is a worldly pursuit, real hardcore Christians should stay single. After all, Jesus was single, Paul was single, most OT prophets and disciples were single.
When you say marriage is a worldly pursuit, I guess that depends on what you mean be "worldly" and "pursuit". You seem to indicate what you mean by that by saying "real hardcore Christians should stay single", together with the usual negative connotation to the term "worldly pursuit" being sin or 'not beneficial' (to use the Pauline phrase).

I find this part of your 2nd post to be in apparent conflict with your conclusions of your OP/1st post. In your 1st post you didn't condemn marriage as "worldly pursuit" for everyone in every situation. So I certainly disagree with you in this one part of your overall assessment of the subject matter. On the contrary, I think for some christians (not all) marriage can be beneficial in all the things God has for us to do.
 
When you say marriage is a worldly pursuit, I guess that depends on what you mean be "worldly" and "pursuit". You seem to indicate what you mean by that by saying "real hardcore Christians should stay single", together with the usual negative connotation to the term "worldly pursuit" being sin or 'not beneficial' (to use the Pauline phrase).

I find this part of your 2nd post to be in apparent conflict with your conclusions of your OP/1st post. In your 1st post you didn't condemn marriage as "worldly pursuit" for everyone in every situation. So I certainly disagree with you in this one part of your overall assessment of the subject matter. On the contrary, I think for some christians (not all) marriage can be beneficial in all the things God has for us to do.

"Worldly pursuit" is an obvious conclusion from Jesus's teachings on "ideal marriage" and comments on "actual marriage" - if you marry, you marry for life until death do you part; you divorce and/or remarry, you commit adultery; nevertheless, earthly marriage in the Pharisees' and the Sadducees' understanding is a sign of the present age without spiritual discernment of the coming judgment, in the afterlife it won't exist anymore. Paul echoed this message, as he taught in 1 Cor. 7 that we should be eschatalogically focused, putting our minds on things of the Lord. All I did was reaching the same conclusion as the disciples - “If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry.”

And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.” His disciples said to Him, “If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry.” (Matt. 19:10-11)

For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. (Matt. 22:30)
For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark. (Matt. 24:38)
 
When you say marriage is a worldly pursuit, I guess that depends on what you mean be "worldly" and "pursuit". You seem to indicate what you mean by that by saying "real hardcore Christians should stay single", together with the usual negative connotation to the term "worldly pursuit" being sin or 'not beneficial' (to use the Pauline phrase).

I find this part of your 2nd post to be in apparent conflict with your conclusions of your OP/1st post. In your 1st post you didn't condemn marriage as "worldly pursuit" for everyone in every situation. So I certainly disagree with you in this one part of your overall assessment of the subject matter. On the contrary, I think for some christians (not all) marriage can be beneficial in all the things God has for us to do.

And btw, I never stated or implied any condemnation on marriage. Marriage itself is neutral, it is as blessed as the couple - or it is condemned as the couple. I remember this CMA Awards opening dialogue, where Carrie Underwood and Brad Paisley mocked Kim Kardashian's marriage with this Humphrey guy that only lasted 72 days. That was the Pharisee's marital style when they asked Jesus about divorce. They had desacrated the marriage institution with frequently divorces and remarriages in order to skirt around the no adultery commandment, it was not I but lord Jesus condemned them with His teaching in Matt. 19:10.
 
You did too. Right there in your second post in this thread.
Well, if that's you make of it, so be it. I just stated an inconvenient historical fact, that most prophets, apostles, and Lord Jesus himself were never married, and so were generatiosn of priests, nuns and missionaries, and last but not least, the finale 144,000. Historically, nuclear family was not even a norm until the 1950s after WWII.
 
Historically, nuclear family was not even a norm until the 1950s after WWII.
Now that is just absurd. I don't know where you got that particular "fact," but it is hilarious!

If that fact was correct, the entire Bible would have been a myth. The nuclear family is all over the bible.
 
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Now that is just absurd. I don't know where you got that particular "fact," but it is hilarious!

If that fact was correct, the entire Bible would have been a myth. The nuclear family is all over the bible.
So was polygamy. And serial monogamy, following the Pharisees' example. The real norm was multi generational household and allo parenting, the two-parent nuclear family in a secluded suburb was a post WWII invention.
 
Now that is just absurd. I don't know where you got that particular "fact," but it is hilarious!

If that fact was correct, the entire Bible would have been a myth. The nuclear family is all over the bible.

Don't you think what's really absurd is the high expectation for one woman to take care of the entire house and two or more kids all by herself? And this is talking about full time tradwife whose husband is rich and capable enough to support the whole household on his own income, while for most families, the woman has to work one or more jobs, and meanwhile still expected to be a chauffeur, chef, nanny, cleaner, organizer, shopper, therapist ... does that sound like a historical norm to you? Or a grand social experiment, which was the real myth?
 
Don't you think what's really absurd is the high expectation for one woman to take care of the entire house and two or more kids all by herself? And this is talking about full time tradwife whose husband is rich and capable enough to support the whole household on his own income, while for most families, the woman has to work one or more jobs, and meanwhile still expected to be a chauffeur, chef, nanny, cleaner, organizer, shopper, therapist ... does that sound like a historical norm to you? Or a grand social experiment, which was the real myth?
I've heard of sour grapes before, but this is ridiculous!

You personally cannot find a woman, so you have convinced yourself that the entire history of the nuclear family was a myth.

And people wonder why I don't bother watching tv. This is a better show than anything on netflix! :D :D :D

I'mma go get some popcorn. Do please continue about how you believe the nuclear family myth was perpetrated. Do you think it was propounded by the government? To what end, do you believe?
 
"Worldly pursuit" is an obvious conclusion from Jesus's teachings on "ideal marriage" and comments on "actual marriage" - if you marry, you marry for life until death do you part; you divorce and/or remarry, you commit adultery; nevertheless, earthly marriage in the Pharisees' and the Sadducees' understanding is a sign of the present age without spiritual discernment of the coming judgment, in the afterlife it won't exist anymore. Paul echoed this message, as he taught in 1 Cor. 7 that we should be eschatalogically focused, putting our minds on things of the Lord. All I did was reaching the same conclusion as the disciples - “If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry.”

And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.” His disciples said to Him, “If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry.” (Matt. 19:10-11)

For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. (Matt. 22:30)
For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark. (Matt. 24:38)
===================================================
And btw, I never stated or implied any condemnation on marriage. Marriage itself is neutral, it is as blessed as the couple - or it is condemned as the couple. I remember this CMA Awards opening dialogue, where Carrie Underwood and Brad Paisley mocked Kim Kardashian's marriage with this Humphrey guy that only lasted 72 days. That was the Pharisee's marital style when they asked Jesus about divorce. They had desacrated the marriage institution with frequently divorces and remarriages in order to skirt around the no adultery commandment, it was not I but lord Jesus condemned them with His teaching in Matt. 19:10.

OK, I want to be fair to you that in your next post you wrote, "Marriage itself is neutral, it is as blessed as the couple". Perhaps it didn't escape your notice that in your upper post, you were still "striking your rod" at marriage?

To get this out of way first, yes, marriage, for those who marry, are marrying for the time period of their initial life on earth, as we say, "till death due they part". Using that definition, you can bestow the description of "worldly pursuit", as opposed to "at the resurrection". Coincidentally, I thought that very thing when I was writing the reply but took it out to be concise and not muddy the main point.

After you noted that a marriage would be before the resurrection, you raised your rod against marriage suggesting it was antithetical to Paul's encouragement that we should be "putting our minds on things of the Lord"... (Fair to say you were suggesting that?) You then introduce the topic (Matt. 19:10-11) where Jesus is talking about the Pharisees' question regarding Rabbi Shammai vs Rabbi Hillel view of divorce.

To keep this concise, the setting/context is that in that jewish culture men over 20 who weren't married were devoted to the study of the law. Mosaic law gave permission for divorce in Deuteronomy 24:1: "When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some uncleanness in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, puts it in her hand, and sends her out of his house."

Rabbi Hillel school held uncleanness was adultery. Rabbi Shammai school suggested, “a man could divorce his wife if she spoiled his dinner, if she spun, or went with unbound hair, or spoke to men in the streets, if she spoke disrespectfully of his parents in his presence, or if she was a brawling woman whose voice could be heard in the next house. Rabbi Akiba even went the length of saying…that a man could divorce his wife if he found a woman whom he liked better and considered more beautiful.” (per Barclay).

Jesus basically taught of the real purpose of marriage and that it's not a tool of selfishness. The disciples, as they often did, found those words tough and likely burdensome. Jesus let the disciples know they did not have to get married like their society expected, especially if they found it so burdensome. Rather they could remain single because, "there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven". He said it was for some, "Not everyone can accept this word," He replied, "but only those to whom it has been given."

You then move to Matt 24 to tar marriage (fair to say?) where Jesus is comparing the 2nd Coming as The Flood where "in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark". The tar being eating, drinking and marrying. But Jesus goes on to compare this to "Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left"... that is to say it's people going on about their lives... as working in the field, eating, drinking and marrying are not sin. Fair to say?
 
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I'mma go get some popcorn. Do please continue about how you believe the nuclear family myth was perpetrated. Do you think it was propounded by the government? To what end, do you believe?
To the end of historical norm, nuclear community instead of nuclear family - two parents, two cars, a bunch of kids, a townhouse, white picket fence and six figure white collar job, the old fashioned American dream has been turned into a nightmare. It's not really a myth, but a distant cultural memory. Mock me in any way you like, I'm just telling you, that is not what Lord Jesus died for.
 
Fair to say?
If it was fair for Lord Jesus to say, it was fair for me to quote. I do think the "actual marriage" following Rabbi Shammai school model deserves to be tarred, both its ancient and modern practice, both on the man's side and on the woman's side. In case you don't know what I'm talking about, cue peri-menopause and Eat, Pray, Love. There has been a recurring theme on New York Times and other prominent outlets where some middle aged women ended their perfectly functional marriage because they felt "emotionally neglected", their caregiving mode had expired, as kids had grown up, they were free to pursuit their personal dreams that had been shelfed for decades; for the first time they finally discovered their authentic selves, and they stopped caring what other people thought of them. As far as I'm concerned, that's the modern day feminist equivalent of Rabbi Shammai school, and that's more common than "death do us part".
 
To the end of historical norm, nuclear community instead of nuclear family - two parents, two cars, a bunch of kids, a townhouse, white picket fence and six figure white collar job, the old fashioned American dream has been turned into a nightmare. It's not really a myth, but a distant cultural memory. Mock me in any way you like, I'm just telling you, that is not what Lord Jesus died for.

People who have not experienced other cultures would not be able to relate to your perspective regarding family life.
 
People who have not experienced other cultures would not be able to relate to your perspective regarding family life.

What neither of us can relate to is the historical norm of arranged (or semi-arranged) marriages and free range parenting, where kids were raised by aunts, uncles, grandparents, servants, neighbors, elder siblings and cousins, and on top of that, everyone operated in a collective mindset and subject to godly sovereignty (in other word, fate), in contrast to today's dating app, helicoptor parenting and daycare centers, and everyone operates in an individualistic mindset and subject to their own entitlements.