The BIG Question not asked, concerning Genesis 6:1-6?

[PennEd]

Jude doesn't say that. We've discussed this before

Maybe we have. I don't remember every convo I've had here, but the topic has come up again in this thread.


It's just a flat out denial of Scripture to say the Angels didn't have sexual relations with strange flesh.

5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their [c]proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the [d]vengeance of eternal fire.

TELL US WHY THESE ANGELS ARE IN TARTARUS?, Usually incorrectly rendered "hell" in most Bibles.

If not for the EXACT reason Jude tells us here?

 

[Jordon]

Maybe we have. I don't remember every convo I've had here, but the topic has come up again in this thread.


It's just a flat out denial of Scripture to say the Angels didn't have sexual relations with strange flesh.

5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their [c]proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the [d]vengeance of eternal fire.

TELL US WHY THESE ANGELS ARE IN TARTARUS?, Usually incorrectly rendered "hell" in most Bibles.

If not for the EXACT reason Jude tells us here?

how can something spiritual have sex with a human ? And why does strange flesh equal angels having sex with humans ?

Maybe we should go with the angels sat down and ate with lot, but make no reference to that meaning they could of sat at the table whilst lot was eating.

Or maybe we should not make reference to the sons of God not having different meaning to meaning children of God either.

And then maybe we should lean completely on our own understanding, and accuse people of point blank denial.

Errrr no I don't think so

 

[Jordon]

Jude doesn't say that. We've discussed this before

my mum came across this discussion a few times in her life from people suffering persecution from demons whom she helped beat addiction , and she found that people where only trying to justify being controlled by evil spirits to not be there fault, which may have been true in some regard, but not every regard.

That's probably what's happening here

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Maybe we have. I don't remember every convo I've had here, but the topic has come up again in this thread.


It's just a flat out denial of Scripture to say the Angels didn't have sexual relations with strange flesh.

5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their [c]proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the [d]vengeance of eternal fire.

TELL US WHY THESE ANGELS ARE IN TARTARUS?, Usually incorrectly rendered "hell" in most Bibles.

If not for the EXACT reason Jude tells us here?

OK, here it is again:

Some are trying to make a connection between Jude 1:6-7 to say it proves angels fornicated with humans. It say nothing of the sort. Their reasoning goes like this: the angels left their home in heaven to come to earth to fornicate with humans (verse 6) even as the men of Sodom did (verse 7). But that's not what the text says.

Jude 1:4-7 is a warning to be wary of ungodly men whose destiny is destruction. Jude 1:4 says ungodly men had crept in who were ordained to condemnation, and then 3 examples of this in former times are provided in verses 5-7

1. I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. Jude 1:5
2. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Jude 1:6
3. As Sodom and Gomorrha and the cities about them similar to these gave themselves over to fornication, and went after strange flesh, are set forth for as an example of suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Jude 1:7

A very similar passage occurs in 2 Peter 2:1-6. Verses 1-3 say there are false prophets in the church who will bring swift destruction upon themselves, and then 3 examples are provided of the ungodly being destroyed in former times in verse 4-6:

1. For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 2 Peter 2:4
2. And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 2 Peter 2:5
3. And turned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an example unto those that after should live ungodly; 2 Peter 2:6

In this case there is no connection between the angels that sinned and the Sodomites that sinned, which disputes the connection between angels and Sodom some are trying to make in Jude. In all cases all examples are used as warnings of what happens to the ungodly

 

[PennEd]

Maybe we should go with the angels sat down and ate with lot,

So how does a "spiritual" being sit down and eat food?

If you were following, you'd see that they ABONDONED their Heavenly bodies.

The men of Sodom certainly tried to have homosexual sex with those Angels.

I'm sorry, but I feel like people are so vested in their learned dogma, they can't understand plain language.

Read the text again.

in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh

The passage starts out talking about the Angels that sinned. Jude then DIRECTLY relates the sin the Sodomites committed to the Angels also committing sexual sin.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Also, WHY are these Angels in chains in Tartarus RIGHT NOW if not for committing this sin?

2 Peter 2
4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to [b]hell (TARTARUS) and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

 

[PennEd]

Curious as to why people JUST CAN'T get themselves to simply believe what Scripture says in this area.

HUGE chunks of the Bible make ZERO sense until you realize the truth that Angels abandoned their Heavenly bodies and had sexual relations to human women that resulted in a hybrid race of beings called the Nephilim.

 

[Jordon]

So how does a "spiritual" being sit down and eat food?

If you were following, you'd see that they ABONDONED their Heavenly bodies.

The men of Sodom certainly tried to have homosexual sex with those Angels.

I'm sorry, but I feel like people are so vested in their learned dogma, they can't understand plain language.

Read the text again.

in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh

The passage starts out talking about the Angels that sinned. Jude then DIRECTLY relates the sin the Sodomites committed to the Angels also committing sexual sin.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Also, WHY are these Angels in chains in Tartarus RIGHT NOW if not for committing this sin?

2 Peter 2
4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to [b]hell (TARTARUS) and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

Err you can sit down to a table to eat but not eat, and still sit down to eat, but unless the scripture says the angels took up physical human form which it doesn't, you could interpret the understanding as Phenomenological form, then seeing as they may well of been spiritual then the chances are they sat down to ate but didn't digest anything.

Also in the sodom theres no interpretation that says they actually had sex with the angels that appeared either.

The angels where cast down in spiritual form, and to even contemplate they could take up physical human form, would give them more power than they deserve.

On the other hand if God could enable an angel to take up physical form, it would have to be by his Command, so in reality what you must be saying is God enabled an angels to take up physical form to let humans have sex with them,

Or your saying fallen angels can take up physical form not needing Gods permission, the only trouble is even satan can only appear as an angel of light,

So errrrr no to desire is one thing but to do is another

 

[PennEd]

The case can conclusively be made using just the 66 Books of our Bible. But I'd venture to say MOST people are unaware or read any parts of The Book of Enoch. Which for those that have read it know Enoch leaves ZERO doubt about the whole issue.

Few quick points on the Book.

It IS part of the Ethiopian Christian Bible.
The Book was found in the Qumran Caves in the Dead Sea Scrolls with the other OLD Testament Books.
Jude copy and pastes an actual verse from this Book in his Book.

I didn't even know this Book existed until I came to CC 13 years ago, but already fully believed what the Genesis 6 text said, that Angelic Beings were the sons of God.

So I think it might be instructful to show just a few short Chapters of Enoch so those steeped in Church dogma about the Seth nonsense can CLEARLY see the truth.

No sense going round in circles on the oiketerion stuff if some can't even see that.

 

[PennEd]

CHAPTER VI.
1. And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto them beautiful and comely daughters. 2. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men and beget us children.' 3. And Semjâzâ, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' 4. And they all answered

p. 35

him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' 5. Then sware they all together and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. 6. And they were in all two hundred; who descended ⌈in the days⌉ of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. 7. And these are the names of their leaders: Sêmîazâz, their leader, Arâkîba, Râmêêl, Kôkabîêl, Tâmîêl, Râmîêl, Dânêl, Êzêqêêl, Barâqîjâl, Asâêl, Armârôs, Batârêl, Anânêl, Zaqîêl, Samsâpêêl, Satarêl, Tûrêl, Jômjâêl, Sariêl. 8. These are their

 

[Jordon]

The case can conclusively be made using just the 66 Books of our Bible. But I'd venture to say MOST people are unaware or read any parts of The Book of Enoch. Which for those that have read it know Enoch leaves ZERO doubt about the whole issue.

Few quick points on the Book.

It IS part of the Ethiopian Christian Bible.
The Book was found in the Qumran Caves in the Dead Sea Scrolls with the other OLD Testament Books.
Jude copy and pastes an actual verse from this Book in his Book.

I didn't even know this Book existed until I came to CC 13 years ago, but already fully believed what the Genesis 6 text said, that Angelic Beings were the sons of God.

So I think it might be instructful to show just a few short Chapters of Enoch so those steeped in Church dogma about the Seth nonsense can CLEARLY see the truth.

No sense going round in circles on the oiketerion stuff if some can't even see that.

the book Enoch is not in our bible either,

 

[PennEd]

CHAPTER VII.
1. And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants. 2. And they became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells: 3. Who consumed all the acquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them, 4. the giants turned against them and devoured mankind. 5. And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and fish, and to devour one another's flesh, and drink the blood. 6. Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones.

 

[PennEd]

CHAPTER VIII.
1. And Azâzêl taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals 〈of the earth〉 and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all colouring tinctures. 2. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they were led astray, and became corrupt in all their ways. Semjâzâ taught enchantments, and root-cuttings, Armârôs the resolving of enchantments, Barâqîjâl,

p. 36

[paragraph continues](taught) astrology, Kôkabêl the constellations, Ezêqêêl the knowledge of the clouds, 〈Araqiêl the signs of the earth, Shamsiêl the signs of the sun〉, and Sariêl the course of the moon. And as men perished, they cried, and their cry went up to heaven . . .

 

[PennEd]

CHAPTER IX.
1. And then Michael, Uriel, Raphael, and Gabriel looked down from heaven and saw much blood being shed upon the earth, and all lawlessness being wrought upon the earth. 2. And they said one to another: 'The earth made †without inhabitant cries the voice of their crying† up to the gates of heaven. 3 ⌈⌈And now to you, the holy ones of heaven⌉⌉, the souls of men make their suit, saying, "Bring our cause before the Most High.".' 4. And they said to the Lord of the ages: 'Lord of lords, God of gods, King of kings, 〈and God of the ages〉, the throne of Thy glory (standeth) unto all the generations of the ages, and Thy name holy and glorious and blessed unto all the ages! 5. Thou hast made all things, and power over all things hast Thou: and all things are naked and open in Thy sight, and Thou seest all things, and nothing can hide itself from Thee. 6. Thou seest what Azâzêl hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were (preserved) in heaven, which men were striving to learn: 7. And Semjâzâ, to whom Thou hast given authority to bear rule over his associates. 8. And they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth, and have slept with the women, and have defiled themselves, and revealed to them all kinds of sins. 9. And the women have borne giants, and the whole earth has thereby been filled with blood and unrighteousness. 10. And now, behold, the souls of those who have died are crying and making their suit to the gates of heaven, and their lamentations have ascended: and cannot cease because of the lawless deeds which are wrought on the earth. 11. And Thou knowest all things before they come to pass, and

p. 37

[paragraph continues]Thou seest these things and Thou dost suffer them, and Thou dost not say to us what we are to do to them in regard to these.'

 

[Genez]

Tell me, is this one of the teachings of the person you follow?

There are quite a few who understand this understanding.
I knew about it before I came into contact with the main person I follow.

Besides...
It is irrelevant.
For, either the Bible tells us that *certain* angels had sex with women in Genesis 6, or they did not.

You have a goal in mind. Not the truth.

 

[Jordon]

CHAPTER VI.
1. And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto them beautiful and comely daughters. 2. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men and beget us children.' 3. And Semjâzâ, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' 4. And they all answered

p. 35

him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' 5. Then sware they all together and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. 6. And they were in all two hundred; who descended ⌈in the days⌉ of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. 7. And these are the names of their leaders: Sêmîazâz, their leader, Arâkîba, Râmêêl, Kôkabîêl, Tâmîêl, Râmîêl, Dânêl, Êzêqêêl, Barâqîjâl, Asâêl, Armârôs, Batârêl, Anânêl, Zaqîêl, Samsâpêêl, Satarêl, Tûrêl, Jômjâêl, Sariêl. 8. These are their

yep to desire is one thing but to do is another,

So let's go with your book of Enoch being authority over the Bible we read, which seems to be your rule here, spiritual possession looks more like a reality here, which by no means is full evidence of physical sex

 

[Genez]

The NT reveals that there is only one Son of God (John 1:14, Rom. 1:4), although those who receive the Spirit of Christ
may be viewed as sons or children of God (Rom. 8:9-17). The Genesis verses should be understood in this light.

There is "the" Son of God.
And, then there are "sons of God."

It is like one saying.

There is The big brother.
And, many brothers.

 

[Jordon]

CHAPTER IX.
1. And then Michael, Uriel, Raphael, and Gabriel looked down from heaven and saw much blood being shed upon the earth, and all lawlessness being wrought upon the earth. 2. And they said one to another: 'The earth made †without inhabitant cries the voice of their crying† up to the gates of heaven. 3 ⌈⌈And now to you, the holy ones of heaven⌉⌉, the souls of men make their suit, saying, "Bring our cause before the Most High.".' 4. And they said to the Lord of the ages: 'Lord of lords, God of gods, King of kings, 〈and God of the ages〉, the throne of Thy glory (standeth) unto all the generations of the ages, and Thy name holy and glorious and blessed unto all the ages! 5. Thou hast made all things, and power over all things hast Thou: and all things are naked and open in Thy sight, and Thou seest all things, and nothing can hide itself from Thee. 6. Thou seest what Azâzêl hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were (preserved) in heaven, which men were striving to learn: 7. And Semjâzâ, to whom Thou hast given authority to bear rule over his associates. 8. And they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth, and have slept with the women, and have defiled themselves, and revealed to them all kinds of sins. 9. And the women have borne giants, and the whole earth has thereby been filled with blood and unrighteousness. 10. And now, behold, the souls of those who have died are crying and making their suit to the gates of heaven, and their lamentations have ascended: and cannot cease because of the lawless deeds which are wrought on the earth. 11. And Thou knowest all things before they come to pass, and

p. 37

[paragraph continues]Thou seest these things and Thou dost suffer them, and Thou dost not say to us what we are to do to them in regard to these.'

yep in hell the soul can also experience pain, but flesh gives birth to flesh and spirit Of God gives life to the spirit not fallen angels

 

[Genez]

Tell me, is this one of the teachings of the person you follow?

Do you know the person I mainly follow?
You want to turn this thread into one about him and change the subject?

The fact remains. Genesis 6 speaks of angels, or it does not.

So far you have tried, but can not disprove what it says in the Hebrew.

 

[Genez]

6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

The word "Abode" is Oiketerion in the Greek.

This word is used only ONE other time in Scripture. In that occasion it tells us of the new HEAVENLY body we will receive.

The Angels that sinned, in a SIMILAR, SEXUAL manner that those in Sodom and Gomorrah did, by going after "strange" flesh, in the Angel's case human flesh, ABANDONED their Heavenly bodies, (oiketerion) that are impossible to have sexual relations with, and put on some form of body that enabled them to have sexual relations. Just as we've seen them on several occasions be able to eat, and be NOT recognizable as Angels. Hebrews tells us some of us may have actually interacted with Angels and have been unaware they WERE Angels.

So here is the other passage using the word "oiketerion".


2 Corinthians 5:2

New King James Version



2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our [a]habitation which is from heaven,

The word rendered "habitation" there is oiketerion.


So this should answer your question.

Another question.
Did the alleged sons of Seth have such an abode?

NO!

 

[Genez]

In Jude οἰκητήριον is most likely referring to heaven as the angels' habitation.

The sons of Seth did not abide there. Did they?