144,000: The first resurrection and rapture of the church

[Psalm1]

Wrong tribes, wrong Israel. You still don't get it. Who they represent is clearly identified by the " hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" so, I added nothing that isn't in scripture. You just are unable to comprehend it. But okay, I'm done trying to explain this to you.
BTW, the firstfruits is understood.

You are quoting a completely separate verse, addressing a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PEOPLE.
Rev 5
6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. 8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Huh?????
You are TRANSPOSING the 144,000 onto Rev 5, the 24 elders.
The 24 elders SANG THE SONG....NOT THE 144,000.

That is appalling what you are doing

 

[Psalm1]

You failed the challenge, and I didn't order a word salad

You are playing games.
Address what is at hand.
If you can.

 

[Psalm1]

No, not if you look closely at Rev 14 - it does not fit the Jews of Rom 9 -14. The 144,000 are Jews AND Gentiles both, and that is not really debatable. I've gone through this with you in excruciating detail before, but I will try again.

Okay, this can be easily seen if we trace in scripture those who can sing a new song:

In Psa 149:1, we see that the "new song" is to be sung only in the congregation of saints (the saved), no others:

[Psa 149:1 KJV] 1 Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, [and] his praise in the congregation of saints.

In Rev 14:3 we see that the 144,000 alone learn the new song and they are the redeemed of the earth with the Father's name written in their foreheads.

[Rev 14:1-3 KJV]
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

But in Rev 5: 9, we see (and this is an important verse), that those who sing the new song were redeemed by God
"out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" and that is the most critical part of the verse (along with that they sang the new song). Therefore, the 144,000 are NOT limited only to Jews or Israel but are saints.

[Rev 5:9 KJV] 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Therefore, based upon those verses, the 144,00 alone learn the new song and that no one else but the 144,000 could learn it, and that they are the congregation of saints redeemed out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation, and are not just Jews of Israel, so, the Jews do not entirely comprise the 144,000. Rev 5 & 14 refers to saints. In that context, Rom 9-11 is not germane to the 144,000.

Lol
It says the elders were not singing the song that the 144k are ONLY ALLOWED TO SING.

THEN , You reference Rev 5 where ONLY THE ELDERS SING.

Then you procede to tell us it is the same scene and dynamic.

Wow
Way way off

 

[rogerg]

Lol
It says the elders were not singing the song that the 144k are ONLY ALLOWED TO SING.

THEN , You reference Rev 5 where ONLY THE ELDERS SING.

Then you procede to tell us it is the same scene and dynamic.

Wow
Way way off

YOU ASKED THIS EXACT QUESTION BEFORE AND I ANSWERED YOU THEN!!!
The elders sing the new song because they are part of the 144,000. Do you see the "us" in v9: they were redeemed too.

[Rev 5:8-9 KJV]
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

 

[rogerg]

YOU ASKED THIS EXACT QUESTION BEFORE AND I ANSWERED YOU THEN!!!
The elders sing the new song because they are part of the 144,000. Do you see the "us" in v9: they were redeemed too.

[Rev 5:8-9 KJV]
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

@Psalm1

Only the saints (people) - those who have been saved - can sing the new song. Therefore, since only saints can sing it, the elders therefore are saints and part of the 144,000 because they sing it as v5:9 tells us:

Psa 149:1
Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints.

 

[ATG]

Zec 8:23
Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

This is being fulfilled now as it has been for the past nearly 2000 years. Whenever we read the bible we are grabbing onto the skirts of the NT writers and saying "We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you"

Neither spiritually, and certainly not physically.

I'm not following the doctrine of the Jews' apostles, but of the Christian apostles of Jesus Christ.

Anyone still seeing 12 apostles of the risen Lamb of God, as Jews, are seeing through carnal eyes, not that of Spirit. Nor are they hearing the NT Scriptures:

Gal 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

If you want to talk about natural Jews vs Gentiles on earth, then by all means do so. They are still separate people of the earth.

But anyone talking about natural Jews vs Gentiles in the body of Christ, are still separating the Israel of God by flesh:

Rom 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I'm not following the doctrine of the Jews' apostles, but of the Christian apostles of Jesus Christ.

Paul called himself a Jew. Us reading and following his words is us grabbing onto the skirt of a Jew and following him. Prophecy fulfilled

 

[ATG]

Zec 8:23
Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Whenever we read the bible we are grabbing onto the skirts of the NT writers and saying "We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you"

1. The prophecy is not speaking of the skirts of any NT writer, who are all dead in Christ.

2. Luke was not a Jew.

3. Only Judaizers follow NT writers, because they are Jews.

4. Only Judaizers prophecying NT servants of the living God and the Lamb, as Jews alone.

 

[ATG]

Was, not is. There is neither Jew nor non-Jew in God's kingdom now; they are all children of Abraham.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28

Correct. There is no distinction in the body of Christ by natural birth.

Only natural born Jews and their Jewish nation, are distinguished between natural born Russians, Brits, Americans, Chileans, etc... and their nations.

At one time God did make a distinction between Israel and Judah. That lasted until Pentecost when one new nation was born from above by the spirit.

That lasted until the nation of the Jews had Jesus Christ crucified.

Jhn 11:48
If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. Ye know nothing at all, Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

And by His resurrection, He became the Head of His one new holy nation of God's Israel,

Jhn 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Whose first member was Mary Magdalene in the night of His resurrection:

Jhn 20:16
Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

​

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The world divides between Jews and gentiles. Apollos was obviously a follower of Judaism until Aquila and Priscila set him straight. Paul was contrasting Peter with the gentiles by calling him a Jew, but Peter was not a Jew.

Still stuck on your pet teaching. Paul says to peter, Thou being a Jew, because Peter was not a Jew. Got it.

People do fine in seeing the Spirit's work between the OT and NT in Scripture. However, some people try to play spiritual with Scripture, and have the Spirit contradict His own words.

In this case, it's a classic example of trying to spiritualize/symbolize the Scripture from 'literally' meaning what the Spirit says in plain language. They either turn the Bible in symbolic fables, or pseudo-spiritual code.

 

[ATG]

Where?

Sorry. Came off confusing.

Scripture now names all Israel after the flesh, as Jews with their own Jews' nation, religion, and law.

Jhn 11:48
If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

After having the God of Israel crucified on a cross, they made themselves their own people and nation on earth, and no longer God's chosen people, nation, religion, nor law in His NT body of Christ.

Gal 6:16
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Eph 2:12
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Only in the body of Christ, is there no division between any natural birth and national citizenship, in the commonwealth of Gd's Israel on earth.

The Jews in effect got what they desired, by ridding themselves of God's Christ and Son: Their very own nation among all nations of the earth: They made themselves Gentile to God, the uncircumcised without Christ:

Rom 2:25
For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

 

[ATG]

Your mind isn't working very well. The only reason Sion exists in the NT is because it's a translational issue. It has nothing to do with anything else.

False.

Deu 4:48
From Aroer, which is by the bank of the river Arnon, even unto mount Sion, which is Hermon,

Psa 65:1
Praise waiteth for thee, O God, in Sion: and unto thee shall the vow be performed.

Sion is used twice in the OT, once with physical location, and once with spiritual blessing. Neither of which is Mt Zion. It's your pet teaching, that works against grammar, and Scriptural prophecy.

Psa 133:1
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! It's is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments; As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.

{12:22}
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect

Mt Hermon was first spiritually named Sion, which has now become the Lamb's holy mount, where both the Jews of Zion and Gentiles of Hermon come together in unity, as the one children of Abraham and God in Christ Jesus.

 

[ATG]

Uriah the Hittiite was a proselyte who likely belonged to the tribe of Judah or Benjamin (based on where he lived in Jerusalem). To make the claim that heroes of Israel like that weren't members of a tribe is just ridiculous.

Uriah the Hittiite was a proselyte who had to belong to the tribe of Judah or Benjamin (based on where he lived in Jerusalem), is only assumption for unproven doctrine.

To make the claim that heroes of Israel like that had to be Jewish members of a tribe is just doctrinal Judaism.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

False.

Deu 4:48
From Aroer, which is by the bank of the river Arnon, even unto mount Sion, which is Hermon,

Psa 65:1
Praise waiteth for thee, O God, in Sion: and unto thee shall the vow be performed.

Sion is used twice in the OT, once with physical location, and once with spiritual blessing. Neither of which is Mt Zion. It's your pet teaching, that works against grammar, and Scriptural prophecy.

As it says in Deu 4:48 Sion is Mt Hermon, which is in Lebanon and Syria

The KJV bible is the only bible that has Sion in Psalms 65:1. Even in it that is inconsistent usage because every other instance of the Hebrew word צִיוֹן (Tsiyown) is translated Zion.

 

[Psalm1]

@Psalm1

Only the saints (people) - those who have been saved - can sing the new song. Therefore, since only saints can sing it, the elders therefore are saints and part of the 144,000 because they sing it as v5:9 tells us:

Psa 149:1
Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints.

Your job is a hard one.
I showed you the word.
I showed you how busted your theory is, and yet you continue in the ashes I left your theory in.

Maybe a new strategy?
Agree with scripture?????

Hard to believe you can not reject your debunked theory I blew a hole in a aircraft carrier could fit through

 

[Psalm1]

Paul called himself a Jew. Us reading and following his words is us grabbing onto the skirt of a Jew and following him. Prophecy fulfilled

The bible is inspired.
We say "Paul said" when it is "God said", "Jesus said", "the Holy Spirit said".
The Holy Spirit called the Hebrew Israelites ...."jews"

 

[Psalm1]

You failed the challenge, and I didn't order a word salad

The verses betray you.
So you quit.
Just say you quit.

 

[ATG]

My comment

"""Their physical bodies""" are resurrected to meet with the Lord in the physical air, standing on His heavenly physical mt Sion.

You have misread the Word of God, at the First Resurrection the First Fruits will be raised with the same spirit body as Jesus Christ,
Philippians 3
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body,

Ok. Shouldn't assume anything in teaching: """Their resurrected physical bodies""" are physically resurrected to meet with the Lord in the physical air, standing on His heavenly physical mt Sion.

All redeemed Christians on earth are, as James says, a kind of spiritually resurrected firstfruits, but the resurrection of redeemed firstfruits at the Lord's return, is physical. Both His return and resurrection of His people are physical.

 

[ATG]

It did in ancient times. Proselytes joined whatever tribe occupied the area in which they lived.

False. Scripture never speaks of any born Gentile becoming a member of any natural Jewish tribe by circumcision.

A proselyte was called a proselyte from where they were converted, and not with any tribal membership.

Act 6:5
And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:

Uriah was called a Hittite, because he was a Hittite. He was not named by a tribe of Israel, because he was not an Israelite of a tribe. Nicolas was called a proselyte, because he was a proselyte to the Jews' religion. He was not called a Jew of a tribe, because he was not a Jew of a tribe.

Nicolas was a Jewish proselyte, who also became a Christian convert. But since he was already circumcised and accepted into the Jews religion, he was not an uncircumcised Gentile convert to the Christian church. Only later, when uncircumcised Gentiles converted to Christianity, did the Judaizers demand Gentiles be circumcised into the church, the same as proselytes to Judaism.

As I've said, you can keep digging your hole deeper, because it's both interesting to see just how deep. And best of all, there's also good Scriptural learning by correction.

 

[ATG]

Tribal membership was not solely determined by genealogy. i think that's what you're having a hard time getting through your head. You are hung up on the idea that it's based solely on genetics.

Tribal membership was solely determined by genealogy. I think that's what you're having a hard time getting through your head. You are hung up on the idea that it's not based solely on genetics.

Which is obviously because your pet doctrine requires it. I've given sufficient Scripture of naming converts by their natural origin, and never as a Israelite/Jewish natural tribe member.

There is only one case where Gentiles were accepted into a Hebrew household by circumcision. And that was Abraham's household servants.

Gen 17:23
And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.

But Scripture did not then call them Hebrews.

As I've said, this has been interesting to watch how deep you'll dig. But honestly, all you need is one Scripture calling an Israeli/Jewish convert, an Israelite/Jew, or a member of an Israelite/Jewish tribe. Or, perhaps any Scripture stating that converts become Israelites/Jews by conversion or circumcision.

Just give one Scripture for your teaching, and then I'll gladly acknowledge it as Bible truth. Otherwise, dig no. Learning Scripture better comes also be learning to correct nonscripture better...

 

[ATG]

I already addressed that. There is no violence in any rapture involving God and his saints.

This normally ought go without saying.

I can't tell what the person is saying. Is there some teaching where God actually forces people to be raptured by Him? As though He takes the unwilling to heaven by force??

He certainly will force all the wicked to stand and be judged before His GWT...