144,000: The first resurrection and rapture of the church

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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
No, I as referring to this harpazo. This manchild is the 144,000 standing on Mt Zion. They are seized by God to Mt Zion, but it says nothing about being resurrected.

And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. Revelation 12:5​
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Mt Zion and Mt Sion are the same thing; just a queer spelling in the latter case.
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Harpazo means to be forcefully seized by another. Paul said he was harpazoed up to the 3rd heaven. So it seems likely that something similar will happen to the 144,000

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 2 Corinthians 12:2-4​
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Caught up
G726 ἁρπάζω harpazo (har-pa'-zō) v.
to seize.

Though it's not the same word, harpazo sounds like what happened to John in Revelation

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in spirit, and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. Revelation 4:1-2​
 
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Harpazo means to be forcefully seized by another.
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That would not be a great way to explain it. It just means to be moved from one place to another. Of course some "force" is used but no violence is implied although that could also happen but not in the raptures that God uses to move his people.
 
ewq1938 said:
That would not be a great way to explain it. It just means to be moved from one place to another. Of course some "force" is used but no violence is implied although that could also happen but not in the raptures that God uses to move his people.
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Well I'm open to better words to use but it's more than just moving from one place to another. If you do a word search, as I have done, you will see that it does convey the idea of forceful seizure, as in people taking the kingdom of God by force, the Roman soldiers arresting Paul, the devil seizing believers out of the father's hand, a wolf snatching sheep, etc.
 
ATG said:
Yes.


The Lamb's Israel of God is not all Jewish.


It's always just a matter of time. If you're going to play the Jewish card, then we're finished. Here and anywhere else on this sight.



The times for the nations to enter the Israel of God, ends at the Lord's return.


This is why Christ seeks Jews, Greeks, Syrians, Brits... to be graffed into His Israel of God.


True. They are sealed post-tribulation of the ungodly upon the saints, and pre-tribulation of the Lamb upon the ungodly.


Only Christians without respect of flesh and persons, can know who the 144k are.

Jhn 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
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Jesus and Paul called Israel Jews.

You are welcome
 
ewq1938 said:
That would not be a great way to explain it. It just means to be moved from one place to another. Of course some "force" is used but no violence is implied although that could also happen but not in the raptures that God uses to move his people.
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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Well I'm open to better words to use but it's more than just moving from one place to another. If you do a word search, as I have done, you will see that it does convey the idea of forceful seizure, as in people taking the kingdom of God by force, the Roman soldiers arresting Paul, the devil seizing believers out of the father's hand, a wolf snatching sheep, etc.
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Perhaps energetic seizure is a better description
 
memberofthebride said:
scriptures please!

Just as for something to consider;

Jesus Christ when He has returned as KING of Kings will sit on the Throne of His Father David,

The Throne of David has existed for over 2500 years --- it exist today, with a king -- where is it?

Luke 1

32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end

Jacob was a Hebrew not a Jew -- produce the scripture stating Jacob is Jewish.

Jeremiah 33

17For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;

Thus for the last 2500 plus years the Throne of David has had a king sitting on that throne.

again where is that Throne today ??

The main stream churches, all 40,000 flavors, have ignored the Old Testament to their harm.
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We ALL KNOW the difference in the tribes.
What you are doing has to be some protection of your doctrine.

Paul was of BENJAMIN. AN ISRAELITE.
HE CALLED HIMSELF A JEW.
WHEN JEW IS USED IN THE NT, IT IS IN INFERENCE TO THE TRIBES.
144,000 HEBREWS
144,000 JEWS
144,000 ISRAELITES.

NO FOUL
 
ATG said:
They are the fulness of the nations that should repent and be saved until the Lord's return, whether Israeli, Greek, Russian, Somali, etc...

They are the firstfruits of the bodily resurrection of His church at His return...
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They look rather like a holy remnant, sealed by God and protected from the Great Tribulation. Bodily resurrection in Rev. 20:1-5 hasn't happened yet until the Lord's return.
 
ATG said:
Exactly. Scripture calls the former Israel after the flesh, and the latter the Israel of God. The former is natural Israelites, and the latter is Israelites of the risen Lamb of God.

It's not by mistake, that those biased toward the flesh in the 144,000, have yet to acknowledge the spiritual difference in NT Scripture between natural Israel with their own nation, and redeemed Israel of God with His holy nation.

Rom 9:6
For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel

For the first time in Scripture, the distinction is made between Israelites born after the flesh, and spiritually born Israelites indeed and in truth.

Jhn 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



Exactly! Well said. Indeed they divorced themselves from the God of Israel, when they had Him crucified on a cross. By willfully 'freeing' themselves from Jesus Christ through death, they freed themselves from their legal husband. By choice, natural Israel widowed themselves from the LORD God of Israel:

Rom 7:1
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

Paul is even bolder in Rom 2, by declaring that being a Jew is no longer by outer circumcision in the flesh, but now only by spiritual circumcision of Christ in the heart.

Rom 2:28
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Rom 2:25
For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Also, by choosing to kill the Son of man contrary to the law, they made themselves uncircumcision to the LORD of the law. And a Jew that is not circumcised is no Jew at all...The natural children of Israel divorced themselves and became uncircumcision to God.

From the beginning, all Judaism invading the churches of God in Christ Jesus share respect for the flesh, and blindness to the Spirit of truth, Who is more powerful and true, than any birth by the flesh...



Exactly again. Good proof. Which of course, is simply comparing Scripture with Scripture:

The new song in Revelation, is only learned and sung by the 144,000 on Mt Sion. Therefore, the 24 elders are also numbered with the 144,000, and having their part in the first resurrection of the redeemed firstfruits of Christ.
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QUOTE
Rom 9:6
""For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel
For the first time in Scripture, the distinction is made between Israelites born after the flesh, and spiritually born Israelites indeed and in truth""

Except it wasn't.
All the Apostles preached the gospel.
Ahem....being converted ..born of the spirit.
And Jesus contrasted being born of the spirit vs born of the flesh.
Further, Paul used "jew" and "Israelites" interchangeably.
 
Psalm1 said:
All the Apostles preached the gospel.
Ahem....being converted ..born of the spirit.
And Jesus contrasted being born of the spirit vs born of the flesh.
Further, Paul used "jew" and "Israelites" interchangeably.
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The disciples never called themselves Jews, or even conceived of themselves as such.
 
RegisterNow said:
They look rather like a holy remnant, sealed by God and protected from the Great Tribulation. Bodily resurrection in Rev. 20:1-5 hasn't happened yet until the Lord's return.
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The resurrection in Rev 20 is referring to a previous resurrection years prior to the 2nd Coming.

It was the NIV that started that false doctrine.
THE NIV BIBLE ERRONEOUSLY INSERTED "...they came to life" ....indicating a theoretical resurrection AFTER THE SECOND COMING.
( NIV = "NOT....INSPIRED....VERSION")

Even to a postribber it should be evident, that there is not a resurrection after the trib, and in the beginning of the mil.
Postribs claim a rapture at the white horses to meet Jesus in the air.
That erroneous NIV resurrection in Rev 20 is way later.
Not even remotely possible.
 
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
When wild olive branches are grafted into the olive tree of Israel, they become sons of Israel. And everyone in Israel belongs to a tribe according to God's choice. It is even witnessed in the prophets that God would join gentiles to the tribe of Levi.

And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD. And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD. Isaiah 66:19-21​
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Lets separate metaphor from genealogy

Isa 66:21 Although Isa 66 cites one day Gentiles serving as priests & 1 Peter 2:9 cites all believers as royal priesthood. Neither passage cite TRIBAL membership.

Rom 11's wild olive tree is a metaphor about FAITH, NOT GENEALOGY! Paul says Gentiles are grafted in to share the blessings of God's covenant with Israel. He never teaches that they become literal sons of Israel.

Tribal identity in Scripture was always genealogical (See Num 1:1-18).

The NT never assigns Gentiles to TRIBES. The entire NT Church is assigned to = ONE Body! (Eph 4:4–5)

Gentiles aren't absorbed into Israel's tribes, they're grafted into God’s covenant, where all NT believers stand as ONE royal priesthood IN Christ.

The Rev 7 & 14 144k passages literally & repeatedly cite Jacob/Israel's sons/tribes by name.
 
Psalm1 said:
What point are you trying to make?
That the bible is wrong in Jesus and Paul and the Holy Spirit using "Jew" and "Israelite" interchangeably?
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It takes discernment to distinguish when Paul is talking about followers of the Judean religion and when he's talking about the children of Israel
 
memberofthebride said:
Comment:

I have found no scriptures stating Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are Jews.
I have found no scriptures stating the House of Israel are Jews.
I have found the 12 tribes of Israel, were split after the death of Solomon into two nations. the House of Israel, 10 tribes and the House of Judah, 2 tribes.

Then in 2 Kings we find the House of Israel is at war with the House of Judah which are called JEWS for the first time in the bible.

2 kings 18

1 Now it came to pass in the third year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, [that] Hezekiah the son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign.

14 And Hezekiah king of Judah sent to the king of Assyria to Lachish,

10 And at the end of three years they took it: [even] in the sixth year of Hezekiah, that [is] the ninth year of Hoshea king of Israel, Samaria was taken.


26 Then said Eliakim the son of Hilkiah, and Shebna, and Joah, unto Rabshakeh, Speak, I pray thee, to thy servants in the Syrian language; for we understand [it]: and talk not with us in the Jews' language in the ears of the people that [are] on the wall.

27 But Rabshakeh said unto them, Hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak these words? [hath he] not [sent me] to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?

28 Then Rabshakeh stood and cried with a loud voice in the Jews' language, and spake, saying, Hear the word of the great king, the king of Assyria:

29 Thus saith the king, Let not Hezekiah deceive you: for he shall not be able to deliver you out of his hand: Hezekiah the son of Ahaz king of Judah

Also in 2 Kings 16 the King of Israel is at war with the Jews

5 Then Rezin king of Syria and Pekah son of Remaliah king of Israel came up to Jerusalem to war: and they besieged Ahaz, (King of Judah) but could not overcome [him].

6 At that time Rezin king of Syria recovered Elath to Syria, and drave the Jews from Elath: and the Syrians came to Elath, and dwelt there unto this day.

Can any one explain this?

thought: Judah -- slang term "Jew" - dah

All Jews are Hebrews, BUT not all Hebrews are Jews.

Also remember the ten tribes, the House of Israel, have been lost since they were taken into captivity.
I know our Father knows exactly where they are. He loses nothing.
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We all know that.

We ALSO SEE that Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin, and called himself a Jew.
We see " Jew" and "Israelite" used interchangeably in the NT.
 
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
It takes discernment to distinguish when Paul is talking about followers of the Judean religion and when he's talking about the children of Israel
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It takes discernment to understand you are attempting to sidestep the fact that "jew" and " israelite" are used interchangeably in the NT.

Just a fact....and yes it would require a tiny discernment.
 
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
It takes discernment to distinguish when Paul is talking about followers of the Judean religion and when he's talking about the children of Israel
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Israel tribes came to Judea to the temple....correct?
You claiming there were 2 temples?
....or that Israel had a different religion?
 
FlyingDove said:
Rom 11's wild olive tree is a metaphor about FAITH, NOT GENEALOGY! Paul says Gentiles are grafted in to share the blessings of God's covenant with Israel. He never teaches that they become literal sons of Israel.
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Of course they do. Israel is the olive tree. If a proselyte in ancient times became circumcised and joined Israel, they were assigned to a tribe. The same is true when wild olive branches are grafted into Israel.
 
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