144,000: The first resurrection and rapture of the church

[Psalm1]

Once again you can't support your mis-guided claims. I'll waste no more time with your abject ignorance. Placing you on ignore where you belong.

THANK YOU JESUS!!!!!!!

You trying to prove the bible is a lie will not get you far around me.

Almost 200 verses in the NT using "Jew"

The real challenge, would actually be TO FIND ONE OF THEM THAT DID NOT POINT TO ISRAEL AS A PEOPLE.

CAN WE SAY "BUSTED"?

 

[Psalm1]

Once again you can't support your mis-guided claims. I'll waste no more time with your abject ignorance. Placing you on ignore where you belong.

I went back again to the concordance.
( yes doing all your lifting for your uniformed mindset doctrine)


John 4:22
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews

You :" but but but JESUS Himself never uttered the forbidden word , my teachers said it was a lie."

Hilarious .

Jesus " boooo"..."jew"

Fd runs screaming in terror.

 

[memberofthebride]

Jesus isn't speaking in any these verses!!! Cite the RECORDED SCRIPTURE that supports your claim. That Jesus used the word JEW in reference to Israel.

Jesus isn't speaking in any these verses!!! Cite the RECORDED SCRIPTURE that supports your claim. That Jesus used the word JEW in reference to Israel.

Comment:

I have found no scriptures stating Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are Jews.
I have found no scriptures stating the House of Israel are Jews.
I have found the 12 tribes of Israel, were split after the death of Solomon into two nations. the House of Israel, 10 tribes and the House of Judah, 2 tribes.

Then in 2 Kings we find the House of Israel is at war with the House of Judah which are called JEWS for the first time in the bible.

2 kings 18

1 Now it came to pass in the third year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, [that] Hezekiah the son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign.

14 And Hezekiah king of Judah sent to the king of Assyria to Lachish,

10 And at the end of three years they took it: [even] in the sixth year of Hezekiah, that [is] the ninth year of Hoshea king of Israel, Samaria was taken.


26 Then said Eliakim the son of Hilkiah, and Shebna, and Joah, unto Rabshakeh, Speak, I pray thee, to thy servants in the Syrian language; for we understand [it]: and talk not with us in the Jews' language in the ears of the people that [are] on the wall.

27 But Rabshakeh said unto them, Hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak these words? [hath he] not [sent me] to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?

28 Then Rabshakeh stood and cried with a loud voice in the Jews' language, and spake, saying, Hear the word of the great king, the king of Assyria:

29 Thus saith the king, Let not Hezekiah deceive you: for he shall not be able to deliver you out of his hand: Hezekiah the son of Ahaz king of Judah

Also in 2 Kings 16 the King of Israel is at war with the Jews

5 Then Rezin king of Syria and Pekah son of Remaliah king of Israel came up to Jerusalem to war: and they besieged Ahaz, (King of Judah) but could not overcome [him].

6 At that time Rezin king of Syria recovered Elath to Syria, and drave the Jews from Elath: and the Syrians came to Elath, and dwelt there unto this day.

Can any one explain this?

thought: Judah -- slang term "Jew" - dah

All Jews are Hebrews, BUT not all Hebrews are Jews.

Also remember the ten tribes, the House of Israel, have been lost since they were taken into captivity.
I know our Father knows exactly where they are. He loses nothing.

 

[Psalm1]

Comment:

I have found no scriptures stating Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are Jews.
I have found no scriptures stating the House of Israel are Jews.
I have found the 12 tribes of Israel, were split after the death of Solomon into two nations. the House of Israel, 10 tribes and the House of Judah, 2 tribes.

Then in 2 Kings we find the House of Israel is at war with the House of Judah which are called JEWS for the first time in the bible.

2 kings 18

1 Now it came to pass in the third year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, [that] Hezekiah the son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign.

14 And Hezekiah king of Judah sent to the king of Assyria to Lachish,

10 And at the end of three years they took it: [even] in the sixth year of Hezekiah, that [is] the ninth year of Hoshea king of Israel, Samaria was taken.


26 Then said Eliakim the son of Hilkiah, and Shebna, and Joah, unto Rabshakeh, Speak, I pray thee, to thy servants in the Syrian language; for we understand [it]: and talk not with us in the Jews' language in the ears of the people that [are] on the wall.

27 But Rabshakeh said unto them, Hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak these words? [hath he] not [sent me] to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?

28 Then Rabshakeh stood and cried with a loud voice in the Jews' language, and spake, saying, Hear the word of the great king, the king of Assyria:

29 Thus saith the king, Let not Hezekiah deceive you: for he shall not be able to deliver you out of his hand: Hezekiah the son of Ahaz king of Judah

Also in 2 Kings 16 the King of Israel is at war with the Jews

5 Then Rezin king of Syria and Pekah son of Remaliah king of Israel came up to Jerusalem to war: and they besieged Ahaz, (King of Judah) but could not overcome [him].

6 At that time Rezin king of Syria recovered Elath to Syria, and drave the Jews from Elath: and the Syrians came to Elath, and dwelt there unto this day.

Can any one explain this?

thought: Judah -- slang term "Jew" - dah

All Jews are Hebrews, BUT not all Hebrews are Jews.

Also remember the ten tribes, the House of Israel, have been lost since they were taken into captivity.
I know our Father knows exactly where they are. He loses nothing.

Jesus and Paul called them Jews.
Is the bible incorrect?

 

[Psalm1]

Hmmmmm...
The 144,000 debacle.
We know the components.

We know who they are.
This thread is attempting to change that.

Sinister.

 

[memberofthebride]

Jesus and Paul called them Jews.
Is the bible incorrect?

Jesus is a Jew and only Jews were living in that area at that time, the house of Israel was gone, taken into captivity, hundreds of years earlier,

Paul is a Jew of the Tribe of Benjamin, the House of Judah is Judah and Benjamin

Do you know who Christ sent the 12 Apostles to?

Matthew 15

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Christ did not say He was sent to the Jews.

And most to New Testament is about gentiles

Please explain how Israel was at war with the Jews

 

[memberofthebride]

Jesus is a Jew and only Jews were living in that area at that time, the house of Israel was gone, taken into captivity, hundreds of years earlier,

Paul is a Jew of the Tribe of Benjamin, the House of Judah is Judah and Benjamin

Do you know who Christ sent the 12 Apostles to?

Matthew 15

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Christ did not say He was sent to the Jews.

And most to New Testament is about gentiles

Please explain how Israel was at war with the Jews

The problem most "Christians" have is they know zip concerning the Old Testament, which is all the Church of God had for almost 1600 years,
the NT came into existence in the 300's AD, but the Catholic church would not let any but priest read the NT until 1260 years later.

The Old Testament has EVERYTHING we need for salvation

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Jesus is a Jew and only Jews were living in that area at that time, the house of Israel was gone, taken into captivity, hundreds of years earlier,

A remnant of the house of Israel had returned and was living in northern Israel. Who do you think most of the disciples were?

 

[memberofthebride]

A remnant of the house of Israel had returned and was living in northern Israel. Who do you think most of the disciples were?

some of the 12 were cousins of Jesus Christ, They are all Jews, show the show me where it says some of the Apostles or even disciples were from the Tribes of Israel.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

some of the 12 were cousins of Jesus Christ, They are all Jews, show the show me where it says some of the Apostles or even disciples were from the Tribes of Israel.

They had to be from the house of Irael because the prophecy says God would make the new covenant with the houses of Israel and Judah. Furthermore if the disciples had been Jews they wouldn't have spoken like this.

Then after that saith he to his disciples, Let us go into Judaea again. His disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again? John 11:7-8​

 

[memberofthebride]

They had to be from the house of Irael because the prophecy says God would make the new covenant with the houses of Israel and Judah. Furthermore if the disciples had been Jews they wouldn't have spoken like this.

Then after that saith he to his disciples, Let us go into Judaea again. His disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again? John 11:7-8​

They had to be from the house of Irael because the prophecy says God would make the new covenant with the houses of Israel and Judah. Furthermore if the disciples had been Jews they wouldn't have spoken like this.

Then after that saith he to his disciples, Let us go into Judaea again. His disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again? John 11:7-8​

scriptures please!

Just as for something to consider;

Jesus Christ when He has returned as KING of Kings will sit on the Throne of His Father David,

The Throne of David has existed for over 2500 years --- it exist today, with a king -- where is it?

Luke 1

32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end

Jacob was a Hebrew not a Jew -- produce the scripture stating Jacob is Jewish.

Jeremiah 33

17For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;

Thus for the last 2500 plus years the Throne of David has had a king sitting on that throne.

again where is that Throne today ??

The main stream churches, all 40,000 flavors, have ignored the Old Testament to their harm.

 

[Psalm1]

The problem most "Christians" have is they know zip concerning the Old Testament, which is all the Church of God had for almost 1600 years,
the NT came into existence in the 300's AD, but the Catholic church would not let any but priest read the NT until 1260 years later.

The Old Testament has EVERYTHING we need for salvation

We all know the difference between Israel and Judah.
Nobody is disputing that ancient fact.

Your is some alternate reality if you think Paul and Jesus did not call Israel "jews"

Play it out.
You really think "king of the Jews" was written by a man that thought "jew" meant the exclusive tribe of Judah and DID NOT INCLIDE ISRAEL? ???

You guys are making a Nobrainer into a ridiculous crossroad ...
...for a REASON.
A DOCTRINAL REASON, that has you misplacing the Jewish Hebrew Israeli people.

Like I said, Jesus and Paul called ALL ISRAEL Jews.
ALL ISRAEL.....

 

[Aaron56]

Hmmmmm...
The 144,000 debacle.
We know the components.

We know who they are.
This thread is attempting to change that.

Sinister.

The same spirit in Islam seems to have taken up residence in your mind. It's the one that convinces people that "God needs someone to defend Him." That's what is truly sinister. As proof, your attitude toward others is juvenile.

Yet, in the council in Jerusalem (led by James the brother of Jesus) regarding circumcision for gentile believers, there was much discussion. Apparently, the apostles and elders thought it okay to discuss a matter at length when the correct path forward was not apparent.

At the end of that council, then, we had the one in charge (James) pronounce the decision: "Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood."

Alas, we do not have this order here: where after much discussion the matter may be established for the rest of the church. Instead, we have endless banter and the immature seem to have endless energy to push their incomplete (or incorrect) doctrine.

 

[ATG]

QUOTE
""Agreed. And that can also be seen by tracing those who learn the "new song". They represent the 144,000 but were redeemed,
" OUT OF EVERY KINDRED, AND TONGUE, AND PEOPLE, AND NATION". They are additionally identified as the " REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH"- all of the redeemed from the earth - not only Christian Jews.""

Rev 5 HAS THE 24 ELDERS SINGING THAT SONG

I only agree with the principle that out of every kindred and people, means any redeemed saint, not only the Jews out of every kindred...

Other than that, Rev 7 is divided between the numbered first resurrection of the saints at the Lord's return, followed by the innumerable saints dwelling with God and Lamb on the new earth.

I have no explanation yet for the 24 elders, other than that if they are bodily resurrected, then they must also have part in the first resurrection at the Lord's return, or with the rest of the dead after the Lord's Millennium. Therefore, they could simply be 24 of the 144,000.

Rev 5:9
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The Scripture is not saying the 24 elders are the only ones redeemed at the time. And since they shall reign on the earth, then they must have their part in the first resurrection and reign with King Jesus on earth.

Rev 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

All redeemed Christian on earth are now made kings and priests, the royal priesthood of Christ. However, reigning on the earth with Him, is not until He returns with power to do so. The Lamb of God did not come to earth in the flesh to reign, but to serve, and so also Christians are not now called to reign, but to serve...

Mar 10:44
And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. For eve the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Jhn 13:16
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

 

[ATG]

- that there are two Israels mentioned in the Bible: an Israel of this world but also a spiritual Israel which is the Israel of the world to come.

Exactly. Scripture calls the former Israel after the flesh, and the latter the Israel of God. The former is natural Israelites, and the latter is Israelites of the risen Lamb of God.

It's not by mistake, that those biased toward the flesh in the 144,000, have yet to acknowledge the spiritual difference in NT Scripture between natural Israel with their own nation, and redeemed Israel of God with His holy nation.

Rom 9:6
For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel

For the first time in Scripture, the distinction is made between Israelites born after the flesh, and spiritually born Israelites indeed and in truth.

Jhn 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

God divorced the earthly Israel and made the true spiritual Church the new spiritual Israel.

Exactly! Well said. Indeed they divorced themselves from the God of Israel, when they had Him crucified on a cross. By willfully 'freeing' themselves from Jesus Christ through death, they freed themselves from their legal husband. By choice, natural Israel widowed themselves from the LORD God of Israel:

Rom 7:1
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

Paul is even bolder in Rom 2, by declaring that being a Jew is no longer by outer circumcision in the flesh, but now only by spiritual circumcision of Christ in the heart.

Rom 2:28
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Rom 2:25
For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Also, by choosing to kill the Son of man contrary to the law, they made themselves uncircumcision to the LORD of the law. And a Jew that is not circumcised is no Jew at all...The natural children of Israel divorced themselves and became uncircumcision to God.

From the beginning, all Judaism invading the churches of God in Christ Jesus share respect for the flesh, and blindness to the Spirit of truth, Who is more powerful and true, than any birth by the flesh...

[Rev 5:9 KJV] 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

[Rev 14:3 KJV] 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Exactly again. Good proof. Which of course, is simply comparing Scripture with Scripture:

The new song in Revelation, is only learned and sung by the 144,000 on Mt Sion. Therefore, the 24 elders are also numbered with the 144,000, and having their part in the first resurrection of the redeemed firstfruits of Christ.

 

[ATG]

That suggested you were easily emotionally bothered by what people might believe.
Using the context clues I assumed your age to be in the teens.
But don't worry about your age, we all start somewhere.

As an aside from the actual argument, your point is spot on. Departing the details of an argument to personally insult, is because the argument is failing.

Unfortunately age is not the determining factor. Some old dogs don't learn new tricks, but only how to bark louder to no point.

 

[ATG]

No, I DIDN'T claim the elders are the 144,000, I claimed the elders who sing the "new song' are PART OF the 144,000: the elders sing the "new song" yet all, and only, the saints sing the "new song"; therefore, the elders are of the 144,000 - it's actually simple.

Exactly. Your argument is falsely misrepresented. You prove the 24 elders are part of the general 144,000, not the 144,000 are all elders in the throne room.

I've been following your argument, and I'm glad to see you spot subtil misrepresentation by others. It shows that when we are honest about our arguments, we know our arguments enough to spot lies about them. Especially the subtil ones.

People who are no honest with the Scriptures, naturally won't be honest with sound teaching of the Scriptures.

Keep up the good work.

 

[rogerg]

Exactly. Your argument is falsely misrepresented. You prove the 24 elders are part of the general 144,000, not the 144,000 are all elders in the throne room.

I've been following your argument, and I'm glad to see you spot subtil misrepresentation by others. It shows that when we are honest about our arguments, we know our arguments enough to spot lies about them. Especially the subtil ones.

People who are no honest with the Scriptures, naturally won't be honest with sound teaching of the Scriptures.

Keep up the good work.

Thank you, ATG, I really appreciate that. I have been following yours also and am extremely impressed by your knowledge and attention to detail. From what I have observed, I believe that we are very close in understanding.

 

[ATG]

The first half of your post is spot on.
Well said

Thank you. Some people get so caught up in symbolizing the Bible, they begin to write their own personal symbol-man's Bible.

A true event can symbolize things, but stripping the event from being true, makes the Bible into just another Book of fables.

 

[FlyingDove]

Comment:

I have found no scriptures stating Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are Jews.
I have found no scriptures stating the House of Israel are Jews.
I have found the 12 tribes of Israel, were split after the death of Solomon into two nations. the House of Israel, 10 tribes and the House of Judah, 2 tribes.

Ok, the original topic of debate was: The 144k and who they are. My position was Israelites. The other debater argued they were Jews.

1st, What is Israel?

Gen 32:27-28 God changes Jacobs name to Israel. Jacob/Israel has 12 sons, each son inherits a portion of land (except Levi they become the priesthood) Jacob blesses Joseph's two sons (Gen 48:9-20) & they each receive a tribal portion of the promised land.

Reuben, Simeon, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Benjamin, Joseph doesn't receive the land directly. Instead, his two sons Ephraim & Manasseh blessed by Jacob each receiving a land portion.

Find a map here: https://ibiblemaps.com/tribal-allotments-of-israel-2/

2ndly, What is a Jew. A Jew is an Israelite from the tribe of Judah. Jesus born in Bethlehem of Judah and is Jew.

The word Jew is broadly used by many bible writers. However, it is not applicable to the topic that was being debated.

Rev 7:
4 And I heard how many were sealed, a 144k; [12k] sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
5 12k were sealed from the tribe of Judah, 12k from the tribe of Reuben, 12k from the tribe of Gad,
6 12k from the tribe of Asher, 12k from the tribe of Naphtali, 12k from the tribe of Manasseh,
7 12k from the tribe of Simeon, 12k from the tribe of Levi, 12k from the tribe of Issachar,
8 12k from the tribe of Zebulun, 12k from the tribe of Joseph, and 12k from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed (marked, redeemed, protected).

REREADING vs 4, "from every tribe of the sons of Israel". The next 4 verses name the exact TRIBE referenced!

Bottom line: John's God breathed writings cites the Rev 7 144k are literal Israelites, sealed for a specific purpose. Rev 7 is about Jacob/Israel's tribes, exactly as written.

Now who are the 144k?
Rev 14:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
(MY NOTE: "144k REDEEMED FROM AMONG MEN", "BEING the FIRSTFRUITS" unto God and to the Lamb.)

Matt 27:
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
(MY NOTE: After Jesus rises, the graves were opened & many bodies of the saints which slept arose & came out of the graves, went into the holy city & appeared unto many.)

1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
(MY NOTE: Christ is resurrected 1st & those seen coming out of the grave after Him are the 144k FIRSTFRUITS seen in Rev 14:4)