Scripture is Clear, Being Born Again, Anew, or from Above; Precedes Faith

[Omegatime]

This teaching is not found in the Old Testament or in the church age till middle of the 20th century'

We have to find the truth for ourselves

 

[sawdust]

How was Nicodemus already a believer? He understood nothing of spiritual reality. He was certainly seeking and, perhaps and probably, came to believe. But recognizing Jesus came from God because of miracles and believing on Him for salvation are very different things.

Guess the disciples were not believers either as there was plenty they didn't understand.

 

[Cameron143]

Guess the disciples were not believers either as there was plenty they didn't understand.

The disciples believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[PaulThomson]

How then is the kingdom in us?

The King is in us.

 

[Cameron143]

The King is in us.

I was trying to make this point to another poster. Hence, the question.

 

[andy700700]

Ephesians 2:8-9
New International Version
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

1 Corinthians 1:31
New International Version
31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”

John 14:6
New International Version
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Matthew 17:20
New International Version
20 He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”

Acts 16:31
New International Version
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

John 3:16
New International Version
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Romans 10:9
New International Version
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

John 1:12
New International Version
12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

 

[sawdust]

The disciples believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.

And Nicodemus believed in Yahweh who is the Pre-incarnate Christ so he was a believer. Also to say he new "nothing" about spiritual realities is going way too far. He knew much, he just didn't understand the new birth much like most Christians today.

 

[homwardbound]

--------------------------------

Don't think Nicodemus believed in the Lord??

2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”

I think he came t believe, he did help in carrying down Jesus's, body to the grave with Simon. I think he did believe and is why in worry and fear he went to Jesus by night in wonderment. just my thought I hear, Nicodemus came to believe, just did not understand as the disciples did not either until Acts 1:1-5 and then Pentecost, woe!

 

[Dino246]

I’m linking an article in the current Christian Post that prompts my OP.
https://www.christianpost.com/voices/which-comes-first-in-salvation-order-faith-or-regeneration.html

NOW I ASK YOU, DOES THE ARTICLE IN THE CHRISTIAN POST RING TRUE WHEN COMPARED TO SCRIPTURE?

The disagreement is not between the article and Scripture, but between the article and your comments about Scripture.

But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God, who were born/gennao, not of blood or of the will of the flesh or of the will of man, but of God. (Joh 1:12-13 NRSVue) *A disciple received and believed because he had been “born of God”, not by man’s will, but by God’s sovereign will.

The causal relationship is not implied by Scripture. You misunderstood the temporal references and placed rebirth before belief. The verse clearly shows the temporal order: belief then power/rebirth.

Jesus answered him, “Very truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born/gennao from above.” (Joh 3:3 NRSVue) *Clearly refers to God above

Nothing is said about faith here, so claiming that rebirth precedes faith is an argument from silence.

The wind blows where it chooses, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born/gennao of the Spirit.” (Joh 3:8 NRSVue) *Being born anew or born from above is as much of the sovereignty of God, as is the wind.

That does not follow. You've drawn a conclusion on nonexistent evidence.

If you perceive that he is righteous, you also know that everyone who does right has been born of him. (1Jn 2:29 NRSVue)Those who have been born of God do not sin because God’s seed abides in them; they cannot sin because they have been born of God. (1Jn 3:9 NRSVue)

Again, faith is not mentioned here, so there is no argument to be made either way.

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the parent loves the child. (1Jn 5:1 NRSVue)

Again, the temporal order is important: belief, then rebirth.

but God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— (Eph 2:4-5 NRSVue) *We were dead, not sick, and dead men don’t, can’t believe!

This is probably the most misapplied verse in the whole argument. The implication that we were "dead" is true but only in the spiritual sense. We don't believe in our spirits, but in our minds! We make thousands of choices and develop many beliefs without being saved... why does an atheist believe as he does? If he is incapable of belief, then he is incapable of unbelief! Though faith unto salvation is indeed the gift of God, it is offered, not imposed.

A certain woman named Lydia, a worshiper of God, was listening to us; she was from the city of Thyatira and a dealer in purple cloth. The Lord opened her heart to listen eagerly to what was said by Paul. (Act 16:14 NRSVue) *The Lord ‘opened her heart’, or birthed her anew, so that she listened eagerly.

The text does not say that the Lord "birthed her anew so that she listened eagerly"; you made that up out of your bias. I caution you against adding to Scripture.

Sir, why are you a Christian and your neighbor is not? You reply, “Because I believed and he did not believe.” If your faith was the deciding factor, you claim your salvation was not ALL of God, because God in your eyes did the same for every person; it was you who made the difference. You now can boast!

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast. (Eph 2:8-9 NRSVue) *Believing is called a work in John 6:29. If a person believing is the deciding factor, he can boast.

In contrast, God is why you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification and redemption, in order that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.” (1Co 1:30-31 NRSVue)

You dismantled your own argument, but you apparently don't see it. Faith is the gift of God... period.

So no, you have not proven that rebirth precedes faith... not even close.

 

[HeIsHere]

The disagreement is not between the article and Scripture, but between the article and your comments about Scripture.


The causal relationship is not implied by Scripture. You misunderstood the temporal references and placed rebirth before belief. The verse clearly shows the temporal order: belief then power/rebirth.


Nothing is said about faith here, so claiming that rebirth precedes faith is an argument from silence.


That does not follow. You've drawn a conclusion on nonexistent evidence.


Again, faith is not mentioned here, so there is no argument to be made either way.


Again, the temporal order is important: belief, then rebirth.


This is probably the most misapplied verse in the whole argument. The implication that we were "dead" is true but only in the spiritual sense. We don't believe in our spirits, but in our minds! We make thousands of choices and develop many beliefs without being saved... why does an atheist believe as he does? If he is incapable of belief, then he is incapable of unbelief! Though faith unto salvation is indeed the gift of God, it is offered, not imposed.


The text does not say that the Lord "birthed her anew so that she listened eagerly"; you made that up out of your bias. I caution you against adding to Scripture.


You dismantled your own argument, but you apparently don't see it. Faith is the gift of God... period.

So no, you have not proven that rebirth precedes faith... not even close.

You were doing so well and then your second last line, sigh.

 

[Dino246]

You were doing so well and then your second last line, sigh.

Perhaps you'd care to explain your concern or disagreement.

 

[4urenlightment]

I’m linking an article in the current Christian Post that prompts my OP.
https://www.christianpost.com/voices/which-comes-first-in-salvation-order-faith-or-regeneration.html

But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God, who were born/gennao, not of blood or of the will of the flesh or of the will of man, but of God. (Joh 1:12-13 NRSVue) *A disciple received and believed because he had been “born of God”, not by man’s will, but by God’s sovereign will.

Jesus answered him, “Very truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born/gennao from above.” (Joh 3:3 NRSVue) *Clearly refers to God above

The wind blows where it chooses, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born/gennao of the Spirit.” (Joh 3:8 NRSVue) *Being born anew or born from above is as much of the sovereignty of God, as is the wind.

If you perceive that he is righteous, you also know that everyone who does right has been born of him. (1Jn 2:29 NRSVue)
Those who have been born of God do not sin because God’s seed abides in them; they cannot sin because they have been born of God. (1Jn 3:9 NRSVue)
Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. (1Jn 4:7 NRSVue)
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the parent loves the child. (1Jn 5:1 NRSVue)
for whatever is born of God conquers the world. And this is the victory that conquers the world, our faith. (1Jn 5:4 NRSVue)
We know that those who are born of God do not sin, but the one who was born of God protects them, and the evil one does not touch them. (1Jn 5:18 NRSVue)

but God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— (Eph 2:4-5 NRSVue) *We were dead, not sick, and dead men don’t, can’t believe!

A certain woman named Lydia, a worshiper of God, was listening to us; she was from the city of Thyatira and a dealer in purple cloth. The Lord opened her heart to listen eagerly to what was said by Paul. (Act 16:14 NRSVue) *The Lord ‘opened her heart’, or birthed her anew, so that she listened eagerly.

Sir, why are you a Christian and your neighbor is not? You reply, “Because I believed and he did not believe.” If your faith was the deciding factor, you claim your salvation was not ALL of God, because God in your eyes did the same for every person; it was you who made the difference. You now can boast!

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast. (Eph 2:8-9 NRSVue) *Believing is called a work in John 6:29. If a person believing is the deciding factor, he can boast.

In contrast, God is why you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification and redemption, in order that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.” (1Co 1:30-31 NRSVue)

NOW I ASK YOU, DOES THE ARTICLE IN THE CHRISTIAN POST RING TRUE WHEN COMPARED TO SCRIPTURE?

Being born again is the process of renewing the mind. That the new creature put away their childish ways and don't turn back or else they'll be turn into a pillar of salt.
To know God that it takes a very long process. That's why we must seek Him in order to know Him. And like it says, "Faith comes by hearing the words from the Lord". And these words don't come to us verbally. But we have to discern each message we receive from God because some of them may not be from Him. That's why we must get to know Him in order to know what is from Him.
Like it says, a son is the only one who knows their father.
The only way to love someone is that you have to know them. You can't love anyone if you don't know them.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

Matthew 9:17
Neither do people pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst; the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.”

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

Matthew 11:27
“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

Proverbs 8:17
I love those who love me, and those who seek me find me.

Jeremiah 29:13
You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

 

[Dino246]

Being born again is the process of renewing the mind.

No, that’s not what Scripture teaches. Renewing the mind is a lifetime process; being born again is instantaneous.

That the new creature put away their childish ways and don't turn back or else they'll be turn into a pillar of salt.

Lot’s wife was turned into a pillar of salt. The Bible doesn’t warn anyone else of that possibility. Paul said that he became a man and put away childish ways; he said nothing about putting away childish ways to be born again or to renew his mind.

Like it says, a son is the only one who knows their father.

Where does it say that?

The only way to love someone is that you have to know them. You can't love anyone if you don't know them.

Really? You don’t have children, do you?

 

[Blain]

I’m linking an article in the current Christian Post that prompts my OP.
https://www.christianpost.com/voices/which-comes-first-in-salvation-order-faith-or-regeneration.html

But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God, who were born/gennao, not of blood or of the will of the flesh or of the will of man, but of God. (Joh 1:12-13 NRSVue) *A disciple received and believed because he had been “born of God”, not by man’s will, but by God’s sovereign will.

Jesus answered him, “Very truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born/gennao from above.” (Joh 3:3 NRSVue) *Clearly refers to God above

The wind blows where it chooses, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born/gennao of the Spirit.” (Joh 3:8 NRSVue) *Being born anew or born from above is as much of the sovereignty of God, as is the wind.

If you perceive that he is righteous, you also know that everyone who does right has been born of him. (1Jn 2:29 NRSVue)
Those who have been born of God do not sin because God’s seed abides in them; they cannot sin because they have been born of God. (1Jn 3:9 NRSVue)
Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. (1Jn 4:7 NRSVue)
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the parent loves the child. (1Jn 5:1 NRSVue)
for whatever is born of God conquers the world. And this is the victory that conquers the world, our faith. (1Jn 5:4 NRSVue)
We know that those who are born of God do not sin, but the one who was born of God protects them, and the evil one does not touch them. (1Jn 5:18 NRSVue)

but God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— (Eph 2:4-5 NRSVue) *We were dead, not sick, and dead men don’t, can’t believe!

A certain woman named Lydia, a worshiper of God, was listening to us; she was from the city of Thyatira and a dealer in purple cloth. The Lord opened her heart to listen eagerly to what was said by Paul. (Act 16:14 NRSVue) *The Lord ‘opened her heart’, or birthed her anew, so that she listened eagerly.

Sir, why are you a Christian and your neighbor is not? You reply, “Because I believed and he did not believe.” If your faith was the deciding factor, you claim your salvation was not ALL of God, because God in your eyes did the same for every person; it was you who made the difference. You now can boast!

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast. (Eph 2:8-9 NRSVue) *Believing is called a work in John 6:29. If a person believing is the deciding factor, he can boast.

In contrast, God is why you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification and redemption, in order that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.” (1Co 1:30-31 NRSVue)

NOW I ASK YOU, DOES THE ARTICLE IN THE CHRISTIAN POST RING TRUE WHEN COMPARED TO SCRIPTURE?

Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God so it is not possible for faith to precede being born again it is a gift of the spirit it is literally one of the spiritual gifts so one has to have the spirit in order to have faith

 

[Dino246]

Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God so it is not possible for faith to precede being born again it is a gift of the spirit it is literally one of the spiritual gifts so one has to have the spirit in order to have faith

It is generally agreed that the gift of faith Paul describes in 1 Corinthians 12 is “extraordinary faith” rather than simple faith unto salvation. However, both are from God, so your main point stands.

 

[Blain]

It is generally agreed that the gift of faith Paul describes in 1 Corinthians 12 is “extraordinary faith” rather than simple faith unto salvation. However, both are from God, so your main point stands.

I was literally saying the same thing in this very topic on another forum today and they called it circullar reasoning

 

[Prycejosh1987]

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast. (Eph 2:8-9 NRSVue) *Believing is called a work in John 6:29. If a person believing is the deciding factor, he can boast.

I believe that believing is alot of than agreement and declaration, int he spiritual sense it is complete submission and denial of self to live for Christ.

 

[4urenlightment]

No, that’s not what Scripture teaches. Renewing the mind is a lifetime process; being born again is instantaneous.


Lot’s wife was turned into a pillar of salt. The Bible doesn’t warn anyone else of that possibility. Paul said that he became a man and put away childish ways; he said nothing about putting away childish ways to be born again or to renew his mind.


Where does it say that?


Really? You don’t have children, do you?

The ancient Israelites never knew God like almost the majority of Christians of today. They may follow some of His rules ritualistically, but they never knew what's their purpose but never tried to find out their purpose because they weren't interested in finding out the meaning behind these rules. Like the Sabbath, they followed it as a ritual but never understand why. Jesus had to tell them to stop being a servant to the Sabbath, that the Sabbath was made to serve them. it was preparing them for a stress-free environment where everyone or thing are holy (Immaculate).

Hosea 6:6
For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.

Isaiah 29:13
The Lord says: “These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is based on merely human rules they have been taught.

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

Following the word without knowing its meaning kills the purpose and makes us into slaves. But a son isn't a slave to the laws. But a slave or a hireling can't enter the Kingdom.

2 Corinthians 3:6
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Romans 8:2
because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

John 15:15
I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.

And the only reason why parents automictically love their child is because the child is a part of them that they can mold them into whomever they want them to be. Like foster parents likes to adopt infants instead of teens because they're easily to mold

Proverbs 22:6
Start children off on the way they should go, and even when they are old they will not turn from it.

 

[Dino246]

Like the Sabbath, they followed it as a ritual but never understand why. Jesus had to tell them to stop being a servant to the Sabbath, that the Sabbath was made to serve them. it was preparing them for a stress-free environment where everyone or thing are holy (Immaculate).

The Sabbath was not for preparing the people, it was to give them rest.

Following the word without knowing its meaning kills the purpose and makes us into slaves. But a son isn't a slave to the laws. But a slave or a hireling can't enter the Kingdom.

You have conflated disparate ideas here.

And the only reason why parents automictically love their child is because the child is a part of them that they can mold them into whomever they want them to be.

Wow, you really know nothing about having children…or perhaps you know nothing about love.

Start children off on the way they should go, and even when they are old they will not turn from it.

You quote Scripture, but your comments tell me you don’t understand it.

 

[4urenlightment]

The Sabbath was not for preparing the people, it was to give them rest.


You have conflated disparate ideas here.


Wow, you really know nothing about having children…or perhaps you know nothing about love.


You quote Scripture, but your comments tell me you don’t understand it.

When I was young, I knew this old Jew that looked like Roger Moore the actor that plays James Bond 007. I asked him one time, "Why do y'all follow these rules?" And he said that he doesn't know that they just follow these customs. And they don't believe in demonic spirits, that they believe all spirits are from God.
And if anyone doesn't know God, that He'll said to those who preached or teach to others about Him but don't know Him, that He'll say to them, "I never knew them", because they didn't take out the time to get to know who He is.
Like Jonah disobeyed God but God never banished Jonah because Jonah knew God and what He may do.

Love is made up of different parts like empathy is one. In order to have empathy you must been in somewhat the same situation of the person that you're showing empathy too. But to love God, you must walk in His shoes to see how He's feeling about certain things. That's why we must go through troubles to understand Him.
And so, be prepare to pick up your cross and follow after Him.

The reason why so many Jews joined the Civil rights movement? It's because many of the Jews grandparents were saying that's how they were treated in Nazi Germany. That many of the Jew's grandkids started showing empathy towards the Blacks that they've gotten involved. That they were showing love to complete strangers.

Matthew 7:23
Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Jonah 4:2
He prayed to the Lord, “Isn’t this what I said, Lord, when I was still at home? That is what I tried to forestall by fleeing to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity.