God's design for relationship is arranged marriage, incompatible with modern society

[Charlesiii]

Lot's daughters were not bad people, they thought the world had ended, they were the only people left, and it was their duty to "replenish the earth" like Noah's three sons. I admit that it wasn't the same case for them, as they didn't suffer infertility, but the obsession of baby making is the same.

They practically raped their own father. It's not only morally wrong, it's depraved. Not so with Sarah, Rachel and Hannah.

And if you think these three women were wrong for wanting children within their marriages, how much moreso the men who took multiple wives to achieve the same? Procreation is one of the purposes of marriage, so its illogical to argue that the women were wrong for seeking success in their chosen endeavour.

 

[AnOldLady]

You know, over all these "terrific" comments, nobody has given a valid answer to the simple question - indeed God offered Eve, an appropriate helper for Adam and brought her to him, but God does NOT make such a helper out everyone's side for everyone, what do you do then? Accepting it and settle on it as God's will? Or go seeking a partner, who may or may not exist, on your own accord? It may not be good for man to be alone, but it's worse for man to end up with a Jezebel or a Delilah.

I noticed that too, Reg. I've known multiple examples where individuals made their own choice of spouse, and many times it works out well; and I've known only several situations where parental suggestion or command was used, and of those, I don't know any that worked out badly. It's just that only the young among us would be able to DO anything about such parental matchmaking.

Of those examples, here's what I remember:

A Muslim friend was raised in Bethlehem by a man whose first marriage was arranged, and his second marriage was by choice. Since this situation involves 2 families, I can comment that the man honored his parent's choice, but having two wives is probably a set-up for jealousy akin to Leah and Rachel, or worse. So that's not my shining example.

I've known a couple families in exclusive Christian fellowships who sought out like-minded options among their own group. That worked well, because everyone was vested in the stability of the family and the community.

One son-in-law asked my input about his interest in my daughter, long before he even hinted it to her. I could see they could work together well, so with that nice a yoke-potential, I had no qualms about letting them make that decision. A couple decades later, I have no regrets and neither do they.

You are wise to bring this concept up for discussion. We old people might be able to influence our young people to be wise to think this one through early. My adult kids are good, as I was, for encouraging their children to make independent decisions, and in doing so, I think they are establishing a good foundation for their kids to trust them. So I have hope that while the choosing of the spouse may not initiate from the parent, the relationship will be reviewed with parental input.

 

[Snackersmom]

.....lumping Sarah, Rachel and Hannah in with Lot's daughters is definitely not comparing apples with apples......I don't think you've presented a scriptural case that Hannah's desire for children was wrong

Exactly..... nowhere in the story of Hannah do we find the words "sin", "led astray", "repented" "God was angry with her", etc. It merely says that God had closed her womb, she was sad about it, petitioned Him to relent, He did, and the outcome was Samuel the prophet.

Just as God had closed her womb, perhaps He also gave her the desire for a child in the first place; I doubt she would have asked Him for something that she did not want.

It's not necessarily a sin to be sad about something. Jesus was described as a man of sorrows and we know He never sinned.

 

[Gideon300]

Exactly..... nowhere in the story of Hannah do we find the words "sin", "led astray", "repented" "God was angry with her", etc. It merely says that God had closed her womb, she was sad about it, petitioned Him to relent, He did, and the outcome was Samuel the prophet.

Just as God had closed her womb, perhaps He also gave her the desire for a child in the first place; I doubt she would have asked Him for something that she did not want.

It's not necessarily a sin to be sad about something. Jesus was described as a man of sorrows and we know He never sinned.

Agreed. Most women in those days saw being barren as a curse. And other women looked down on those who were barren, as Sarah found out.

 

[Snackersmom]

Agreed. Most women in those days saw being barren as a curse. And other women looked down on those who were barren, as Sarah found out.

Exactly. God actually seemed to enjoy using baren women to deliver some very prominent children: Samuel, Samson, Issac, Joseph, John the Baptist.... it's almost as if God likes to make His strength perfect in our weakness.

 

[RegisterNow]

I noticed that too, Reg. I've known multiple examples where individuals made their own choice of spouse, and many times it works out well; and I've known only several situations where parental suggestion or command was used, and of those, I don't know any that worked out badly. It's just that only the young among us would be able to DO anything about such parental matchmaking.

Of those examples, here's what I remember:

A Muslim friend was raised in Bethlehem by a man whose first marriage was arranged, and his second marriage was by choice. Since this situation involves 2 families, I can comment that the man honored his parent's choice, but having two wives is probably a set-up for jealousy akin to Leah and Rachel, or worse. So that's not my shining example.

I've known a couple families in exclusive Christian fellowships who sought out like-minded options among their own group. That worked well, because everyone was vested in the stability of the family and the community.

One son-in-law asked my input about his interest in my daughter, long before he even hinted it to her. I could see they could work together well, so with that nice a yoke-potential, I had no qualms about letting them make that decision. A couple decades later, I have no regrets and neither do they.

You are wise to bring this concept up for discussion. We old people might be able to influence our young people to be wise to think this one through early. My adult kids are good, as I was, for encouraging their children to make independent decisions, and in doing so, I think they are establishing a good foundation for their kids to trust them. So I have hope that while the choosing of the spouse may not initiate from the parent, the relationship will be reviewed with parental input.

If you're of the Boomer or Gen X generation in a NATO nation (I refuse to use the confusing communist term "West"), consider yourself blessed, as you were born and raised in the most peaceful, prosperous, technologically advanced and fun era after WWII, and demographically speaking, you're the one and only transitional generation demarcated by a high birth rate and low death rate; before it was high birth rate coupled with high death rate, afterward, it'll be a LOW birth rate and a low death rate, which means social mobility and innovations inevitably dries up, today's young adults are experiencing both the 60s social upheaval and the 30s great depression, big conglamrates are swallowing up small businesses, institutions you old ladies used to rely upon are losing credits, third place clubs and communities are disappearing, including local churches, that's a quite grim picture, which I believe, definitely qualifies as "present distress" Paul talked about.

 

[RegisterNow]

They practically raped their own father. It's not only morally wrong, it's depraved. Not so with Sarah, Rachel and Hannah.

And if you think these three women were wrong for wanting children within their marriages, how much moreso the men who took multiple wives to achieve the same? Procreation is one of the purposes of marriage, so its illogical to argue that the women were wrong for seeking success in their chosen endeavour.

Please, don't use the r word so casually, cut the two daughters some slack. They may not be in the same boat with Sarah, Rachel and Hannah, but they were in the same boat with Tamar who did likewise with Judah, and Judah admitted that she was more righteous than he.

 

[Dino246]

Mind you, I myself am 47 and still single. But I ain't gonna preach that REAL Christians should be single. That theology, if popular, would lead to human extinction.

You haven’t seen the statistics lately regarding single motherhood.

 

[Dino246]

You don't know whether he was still married at the time or his wife was still alive. The only mention was his mother in law, there was no direct mention of his wife or any possible kids. Even if she was alive and kicking, did Peter stay with her or go out preaching the gospel?

I suggest you read 1 Corinthians 9:5.

 

[Dino246]

Please, don't use the r word so casually, cut the two daughters some slack. They may not be in the same boat with Sarah, Rachel and Hannah, but they were in the same boat with Tamar who did likewise with Judah, and Judah admitted that she was more righteous than he.

“The ‘r’ word?” “Casually”? No. That was not a casual use of the word “rape”; that is precisely what happened.

If a man intentionally gets a woman drunk and engages in sexual union with her, it is rape. If a woman does the same to a man, it is rape. That’s the correct word and there is no other.

Tamar’s situation is very different and was definitely not rape.

 

[ChrBrotherist]

Thanks. Sorry I can't relate, I have no desire for any girl, nor do I know anyone personally. All that I'm saying is that marriage is a worldly pursuit, real hardcore Christians should stay single. After all, Jesus was single, Paul was single, most OT prophets and disciples were single.

When someone loves the Lord, He works through them in amazing ways. To think choosing single life is more righteous or "hard core", may be true for some but not all. The Lord has a plan and it accounts for those who get married and joined by Him, and for those who remain single.


I've met many who confuse their walk as superior to anothers.

Some who claimed raising children up in the ways of the Lord was more virtuous and some who claim remaining chaste was better.


The truth is that when we stay focused on our Father in heaven, either path is sanctified by Him and looking down on one or the other is silly at best, and potentially haughty.

 

[Gideon300]

If you're of the Boomer or Gen X generation in a NATO nation (I refuse to use the confusing communist term "West"), consider yourself blessed, as you were born and raised in the most peaceful, prosperous, technologically advanced and fun era after WWII, and demographically speaking, you're the one and only transitional generation demarcated by a high birth rate and low death rate; before it was high birth rate coupled with high death rate, afterward, it'll be a LOW birth rate and a low death rate, which means social mobility and innovations inevitably dries up, today's young adults are experiencing both the 60s social upheaval and the 30s great depression, big conglamrates are swallowing up small businesses, institutions you old ladies used to rely upon are losing credits, third place clubs and communities are disappearing, including local churches, that's a quite grim picture, which I believe, definitely qualifies as "present distress" Paul talked about.

My wife quite often go to restaurants. Earlier this year, we went to a fancier place where we celebrated our engagement. The young waitress told us that we were the loveliest couple that she had ever met. I told her that what she was seeing was Jesus in us. That led to about 20 minutes of sharing the gospel (we had arrived a bit late and everyone else had left).

A godly marriage is a wonderful witness precisely because times are tough. And you should know that there has never been any "good old days". WW2 was a terrible time, the 50's was the time millions of soldiers were recovering from the effects of war, the sixties was the time of rebellion, sex, drugs and rock, the Vietnam war and mass protests against authority. There was the Cuba crisis when nuclear war was only just avoided. The 70's was the oil crisis, creating havoc on the world's economy.

I'm 74. When I was born in England, the cities were in the process of rebuilding. There was still some rationing. Unemployment was high due to demobilisation. Just when peace seemed to breaking out, the Korean war started.

 

[Lynx]

When someone loves the Lord, He works through them in amazing ways. To think choosing single life is more righteous or "hard core", may be true for some but not all. The Lord has a plan and it accounts for those who get married and joined by Him, and for those who remain single.


I've met many who confuse their walk as superior to anothers.

Some who claimed raising children up in the ways of the Lord was more virtuous and some who claim remaining chaste was better.


The truth is that when we stay focused on our Father in heaven, either path is sanctified by Him and looking down on one or the other is silly at best, and potentially haughty.

Howdy, welcome to the forum, and cute nickname. I get it.

 

[RodB651]

@ChrBrotherist

You Da'Man!

 

[RegisterNow]

I suggest you read 1 Corinthians 9:5.

I suggest you put that into the context of 1 Cor. 9, and trust Paul as not being a hypocrite contradicting his own advice.

 

[RegisterNow]

“The ‘r’ word?” “Casually”? No. That was not a casual use of the word “rape”; that is precisely what happened.

If a man intentionally gets a woman drunk and engages in sexual union with her, it is rape. If a woman does the same to a man, it is rape. That’s the correct word and there is no other.

Tamar’s situation is very different and was definitely not rape.

No it's not. It is a casual use of the r word and a predujice against Lot's daughters. The essence of sexual assault is a power abuse by subjugating the victim and carnally possessing their body, and the intention is always out of malice. A father could rape a daughter, by no means could a daughter rape a father.

 

[RegisterNow]

I suggest you read 1 Corinthians 9:5.

And I did read it, it says A traveling wife, not the wife of Paul's, Peter's or anybody in particular.

Also, I suggest you read 1 Tim. 3:2-4 and 3:11-12. Did Paul, Timothy or Peter have at least two children to meet this qualification?

 

[RegisterNow]

My wife quite often go to restaurants. Earlier this year, we went to a fancier place where we celebrated our engagement. The young waitress told us that we were the loveliest couple that she had ever met. I told her that what she was seeing was Jesus in us. That led to about 20 minutes of sharing the gospel (we had arrived a bit late and everyone else had left).

A godly marriage is a wonderful witness precisely because times are tough. And you should know that there has never been any "good old days". WW2 was a terrible time, the 50's was the time millions of soldiers were recovering from the effects of war, the sixties was the time of rebellion, sex, drugs and rock, the Vietnam war and mass protests against authority. There was the Cuba crisis when nuclear war was only just avoided. The 70's was the oil crisis, creating havoc on the world's economy.

I'm 74. When I was born in England, the cities were in the process of rebuilding. There was still some rationing. Unemployment was high due to demobilisation. Just when peace seemed to breaking out, the Korean war started.

A marriage is only as godly as the couple. I truly believe it is a blessing, I grew up in an intact two parent family, even though I spend most of my time alone playing and studying without any sibling or cousin. Mom and pop were materialists who substituted godly care with material possessions, and they only valued me for my grades and other academic accomplishments, sometimes they could be abusive, emotionally and physically, but all is long forgiven, time has healed all wounds.

It may be really hard for your boomes to believe, but marriage, kids and multiple kids have most definitely become a luxury instead of common milestones of life, for the first time in history, the elites tend to have larger families than the commoners, and marriage has transformed from the "cornerstone model" to the "capstone model". It is a blessing, but also a privilege.

 

[RegisterNow]

When someone loves the Lord, He works through them in amazing ways. To think choosing single life is more righteous or "hard core", may be true for some but not all. The Lord has a plan and it accounts for those who get married and joined by Him, and for those who remain single.


I've met many who confuse their walk as superior to anothers.

Some who claimed raising children up in the ways of the Lord was more virtuous and some who claim remaining chaste was better.


The truth is that when we stay focused on our Father in heaven, either path is sanctified by Him and looking down on one or the other is silly at best, and potentially haughty.

Single life is everyone's default status, marriage is your choice, and actually getting married and staying married is God's choice, unless you can make a helper out of your own rib as God did on Adam. And what is for all, though, is "thou shalt not covet."

 

[Gideon300]

A marriage is only as godly as the couple. I truly believe it is a blessing, I grew up in an intact two parent family, even though I spend most of my time alone playing and studying without any sibling or cousin. Mom and pop were materialists who substituted godly care with material possessions, and they only valued me for my grades and other academic accomplishments, sometimes they could be abusive, emotionally and physically, but all is long forgiven, time has healed all wounds.

It may be really hard for your boomes to believe, but marriage, kids and multiple kids have most definitely become a luxury instead of common milestones of life, for the first time in history, the elites tend to have larger families than the commoners, and marriage has transformed from the "cornerstone model" to the "capstone model". It is a blessing, but also a privilege.

We boomers. next you'll be telling me how white privilege has been so wonderful. I'm the eldest of four children. My father was in the military and away from home a lot. By the time I was 16, I was living in four countries and in 14 different homes. My parents were alcoholics. My mother was into the occult and my father an atheist. There was nothing unusual about this. England is shot through with witchcraft. My mother was one the most intelligent people I've ever met. When we kids were young, she worked on a farm packing potatoes. She'd come home and cook, clean and manage the home. There were times when we walked the railway line to pick up coal that had fallen off the steam train. At times we were that poor.

My mother eventually became classifieds manager for a newspaper and a bookkeeper for a supermarket. My parents were set free of alcohol (thank God) and worked hard enough to buy a small home. I was about 25 at that time.

We did not have cable TV, mobile phones, the internet or Netflix. We had less to spend our money on. My parents lived under the same roof until my father passed away in his 70's. They were married legally, but that's as far as it went.

Christians are free to marry or not. It's not a privilege. It was ordained by God from the beginning. The gospel is not just "go to heaven when you die". It is the restoration of man to the original plan purpose of God for Him. That includes being fruitful and multiplying. That can only be done in the context of marriage.

One of our residents is a godly man who is now 90. He was a Methodist minister before they went woke. He never married and he is a joy to be around. We fellowship with another pastor who is in his forties with 4 children. He is also alive in Christ. I can understand the people of the world not wanting children. Christians can trust God with every aspect of life, even with marriage and family.