God's design for relationship is arranged marriage, incompatible with modern society

[seoulsearch]

You won't understand the sexually repressive culture I grew up in as a single kid, or the social system without any meaningful welfare program, pension and medicare are for a privileged few. Everybody saves, refrains from reckless spending and avoids unnecessary risk - such as dating - because your savings is all you have in case of unemployment, medical emergency or other accidents. Plus, when at work, everybody is busy at work, everybody is staring at the screen all the time, nobody socializes casually, especially in the post #MeToo and post COVID era.

Apparently, you think others are incapable of understanding because you believe no one has lived in a similar manner. You seem to believe that everyone else is out partying and sleeping with people at every turn, but I can assure you, that's not true for many of us here in Singles.

No, I wasn't raised in your culture, but I have lived very similarly. I was always taught to pay my own way, never rely on the government for anything as much as possible (because God wants us to earn our own way,) and avoid frivolous spending as much as possible.

I didn't drink, smoke, party, or do very much of anything social. I met people at church, work, and school, but it's hard to find anyone interested in a genuine friendship in most any setting (at least in my experience,) so much of my life has been in solitude as well.

I grew up in a conservative Christian church and school that pretty much equated sexual activity with an instant ticket to hell, so you better believe a lot of the kids there were terrified to the core of dating, the opposite sex, and any kind of intimacy.

I grew up around a circle of business owners -- some who succeeded, and some who did not, so I observed a lot about what causes a person to get ahead -- like the kid cleaning the bathrooms when everyone else felt they were too good for such a menial task, but eventually went on to own the entire business.

I saw what happened to the people who saved everything -- and were seen as boring and behind the times -- vs. the ones who had to have the latest and greatest of everything.

By God's grace, I chose the boring route. I can relate to the life you described for yourself a lot more than you think.

You are wrong in many of your assumptions about the people who are reading your posts.

And if you're wrong about that, maybe you might consider that you could be wrong about some of your other assumptions as well.

 

[RegisterNow]

I'm not sure how familiar you are with forum settings like this -- but usually, no one here is going to blindly believe in or be interested in what you have to say unless you can back it with your tangible credibility (sources that can be checked,) and your own personal life experiences.

All that I'm saying is to follow the Ethiopian eunuch's example, trust a spiritual leader to guide us in the word of God, but also taking it with a grain of salt by discerning the spirit at the same time. I know for sure that the supposed "spiritual leaders" have failed the congreagtion with the "sexual prosperity gospel" and "purity culture", they have yielded to Disney animations and rom coms to answer the vital question "how do you meet your "helper" and get married in the first place". I've been thinking over it for a long time, and the OP is my conclusion on that.

 

[RegisterNow]

Never venturing out without a 'covid' mask is reflective of the current 'outlook,' I'm afraid. Nobody knows how to see with the 'good eye,' if anyone ever did in former times. Venturing to marry is venturing the risk of engaging a Jezebel, for instance. But the reality is that, whether single or married, it's all a suffering (within this world), isn't it?

Amen to that.

 

[seoulsearch]

All that I'm saying is to follow the Ethiopian eunuch's example, trust a spiritual leader to guide us in the word of God, but also taking it with a grain of salt by discerning the spirit at the same time. I know for sure that the supposed "spiritual leaders" have failed the congreagtion with the "sexual prosperity gospel" and "purity culture", they have yielded to Disney animations and rom coms to answer the vital question "how do you meet your "helper" and get married in the first place". I've been thinking over it for a long time, and the OP is my conclusion on that.

Yes.

And all I asked is, who are your spiritual leaders that are in authority over and teach you?

What is the name of the church you attend who have the leaders you approve of that are apparently getting everything right, so we can look it up for ourselves?

 

[cinder]

To start over, plz read the OP first, especially the PS, all explained there. To sum it up, "God wants us to marry" "sex is within marriage" "be fruitful and multiply" are all true biblical teachings, I'm not here to challenge any of these, but they are all meaningless without an explanation of how you meet your own "helper" and get married in the first place. The biblical explanation is arranged marriage, so is the norm in the historical context of the whole bible, but it's out of the picture in modern society, and the church doesn't have an answer for that, so instead of promoting singleness or reviving arranged marriage, most churches preach this "sexual prosperity gospel" to singles. My personal story is to have recognized it as a scam taking the Lord's name in vain.

I think there are a lot of people who unfortunately grew up in churches that were so concerned about their teens having sex that they almost condemned any romantic interest as unspiritual and below them. Then those teens grow up and don't have any clue about godly ways to go about relationships. And yes as one book I read 20 years ago explained it, church treats singleness as the problem and the solution is get married and then you can have marriage problems and buy books and go to counseling for your marriage problems. I've heard too many stories about the problems with arranged marriages to think that that's the solution, but even now, if I met a guy that I was serious about, he would be meeting my parents and I'd value their opinions and counsel pretty highly (and definitely be asking them to double check that I was asking all the questions that should be asked before I decide to commit to spending the rest of my life with that someone). I don't think those who advocate for marriage are wrong about things like marriage is a great instrument in making you more holy (having to live with someone else and consider their needs will do that) and a great blessing. But most churches have a huge blindspot when it comes to what are the challenges singles face (like having group activities they can go to to meet people, or not having a trusted partner to turn to when making major decisions or life catastrophes) and there's also some fear about having to deal with all that sexual temptation if you actually try to help people form relationships that lead to marriage (that's a hard thing to pastor even the most dedicated christians through).

As to how you meet people and how to conduct the beginning phases of a relationship, here's some of the wisdom I've gained over the years (that I don't necessarily follow but it does keep me from blaming the world that mr right hasn't just suddenly dropped into my lap from heaven):

• You have to go where the people are. Your perfect match is very unlikely to walk into your living room one day.
• Practice the 2 hour rule - if you're regularly spending more than 2 hours a week in one on one interaction with a person you're signaling that you're more than just friends.
• One dinner with anyone is probably tolerable even if you decide to drive there separately. So agree to one dinner unless you have a specific reason not to.
• The internet is a great tool, but you've got to be able to spend time together in person to determine if this is someone you want to live with
• When it comes to physical contact, if you can't talk about it your relationship isn't strong enough for it.
• Love wants the best for another, if you're going to say you love someone you need to seek their best (even if that's not you)
• Hormones make you crazy, so it's a good idea to let a trusted friend be the voice of reason to tell you when you're about to do something really stupid in the name of love.
• Be part of each other's worlds and communities, it's a much better way to get to know each other than to just spend time alone together apart from your existing community.
• There is no pre-ordained one, just focus on making a wise choice

ok that's about all I've got.

 

[RegisterNow]

Yes.

And all I asked is, who are your spiritual leaders that are in authority over and teach you?

What is the name of the church you attend who have the leaders you approve of that are apparently getting everything right, so we can look it up for ourselves?

I've found the largest common ground with Messianic Jusaism, mixed with a traditional Catholic view of sin (the seven deadly sins) and a traditional Orthodox view of the trinity. What I loath the most is the modern "rock concert and TED talk" churches, especially the progressive ones that echo the political buzzwords and propaganda.

 

[seoulsearch]

All that I'm saying is to follow the Ethiopian eunuch's example, trust a spiritual leader to guide us in the word of God, but also taking it with a grain of salt by discerning the spirit at the same time. I know for sure that the supposed "spiritual leaders" have failed the congreagtion with the "sexual prosperity gospel" and "purity culture", they have yielded to Disney animations and rom coms to answer the vital question "how do you meet your "helper" and get married in the first place". I've been thinking over it for a long time, and the OP is my conclusion on that.

By asking who your own spiritual leaders are, I am trying to discern if you are someone who is doing what they are teaching -- you're telling people they need spiritual leaders and teachers and can't just study the Bible on their own.

So who are yours?

Because we get hundreds of people who breeze through this site every year -- SAP's (self-appointed preachers and prophets) -- wanting to rope others under spiritual "teaching" (their own, of course,) but refuse to submit to any other authority themselves, claiming all others are corrupt, and thereby claiming (with or without saying so) that they alone understand Scripture better and more clearly than any other human being on the earth.

They are a self-appointed pastors, seeking a congregation to heed their every teaching... "from the Lord."

I personally don't buy into that sales pitch, but that's just me.

 

[RegisterNow]

Apparently, you think others are incapable of understanding because you believe no one has lived in a similar manner. You seem to believe that everyone else is out partying and sleeping with people at every turn, but I can assure you, that's not true for many of us here in Singles.

No, I wasn't raised in your culture, but I have lived very similarly. I was always taught to pay my own way, never rely on the government for anything as much as possible (because God wants us to earn our own way,) and avoid frivolous spending as much as possible.

I didn't drink, smoke, party, or do very much of anything social. I met people at church, work, and school, but it's hard to find anyone interested in a genuine friendship in most any setting (at least in my experience,) so much of my life has been in solitude as well.

I grew up in a conservative Christian church and school that pretty much equated sexual activity with an instant ticket to hell, so you better believe a lot of the kids there were terrified to the core of dating, the opposite sex, and any kind of intimacy.

I grew up around a circle of business owners -- some who succeeded, and some who did not, so I observed a lot about what causes a person to get ahead -- like the kid cleaning the bathrooms when everyone else felt they were too good for such a menial task, but eventually went on to own the entire business.

I saw what happened to the people who saved everything -- and were seen as boring and behind the times -- vs. the ones who had to have the latest and greatest of everything.

By God's grace, I chose the boring route. I can relate to the life you described for yourself a lot more than you think.

You are wrong in many of your assumptions about the people who are reading your posts.

And if you're wrong about that, maybe you might consider that you could be wrong about some of your other assumptions as well.

I think it's a huge tactical mistake to have stigmatized sex and shamed human body, especially female body. That has caused a general ignorance, leaving the flock to be "sexually discipled" by the post sexual revolution culture. It might be a surprise to you that sex was much less of a taboo topic, and folks in ancient time were much more knowledgeable in sexuality, they learned it from relatives and they observed their peers, servants and animals doing it behind (not so closedly shut) doors. Leviticus even gave some educational material on menstruation, the word "unclean" simply means "not fit", in that context, not fit for sexual intercourse - until two weeks after period and a purification bath, known as the "mikvah". But you'll never hear about it in the church.

 

[seoulsearch]

I've found the largest common ground with Messianic Jusaism, mixed with a traditional Catholic view of sin (the seven deadly sins) and a traditional Orthodox view of the trinity. What I loath the most is the modern "rock concert and TED talk" churches, especially the progressive ones that echo the political buzzwords and propaganda.

Ok, now we're getting somewhere -- thank you for answering.

If you get to know the regular members of this site, you'll find that many here already share your disdain for "modern" churches as well. It's a popular subject that is talked about regularly here in many places on the forum (if you're wanting to to know, just ask, I'm sure many can direct you to threads you might find interesting.)

In other words, if you take the time to get to know the audience, you'll find that you just might be preaching to the choir -- and you might want to try to adjust your threads to find the audiences you are truly seeking.

 

[seoulsearch]

I think it's a huge tactical mistake to have stigmatized sex and shamed human body, especially female body. That has caused a general ignorance, leaving the flock to be "sexually discipled" by the post sexual revolution culture. It might be a surprise to you that sex was much less of a taboo topic, and folks in ancient time were much more knowledgeable in sexuality, they learned it from relatives and they observed their peers, servants and animals doing it behind (not so closedly shut) doors. Leviticus even gave some educational material on menstruation, the word "unclean" simply means "not fit", in that context, not fit for sexual intercourse - until two weeks after period and a purification bath, known as the "mikvah". But you'll never hear about it in the church.

See, we have some common ground here.

In my Christian school, the unspoken rules about sex seemed to be, "Don't think about it, don't talk about it, don't do it -- and for goodness's sake, don't ask US about it!!" At least, that's how it always felt to me. As you mentioned, it felt shameful to even ask about menstruation, though of course as a kid, I had a ton of questions I wished to ask.

And yes, I agree that history is filled with extremes. I'm very glad we're not living in times where I had to witness my parents fulfilling a loving marriage right next to us in the same room because of having only one room in the house! But society always seems to swing back and forth to extremes rather than finding a useful medium.

A healthy balance always seems elusive, and leaves so many people in pain and despair -- on either side.

This has been one of my life's goals -- to try to help and get people talking about many of the things I never heard talked about (or allowed to be talked about) in church.

I always told God that if it was His will, I wanted to grow up to be the big sister other young women could talk to about all the things I wish I were able to ask an older Christian sister (or married friend) when I was growing up.

 

[RegisterNow]

I think there are a lot of people who unfortunately grew up in churches that were so concerned about their teens having sex that they almost condemned any romantic interest as unspiritual and below them. Then those teens grow up and don't have any clue about godly ways to go about relationships. And yes as one book I read 20 years ago explained it, church treats singleness as the problem and the solution is get married and then you can have marriage problems and buy books and go to counseling for your marriage problems. I've heard too many stories about the problems with arranged marriages to think that that's the solution, but even now, if I met a guy that I was serious about, he would be meeting my parents and I'd value their opinions and counsel pretty highly (and definitely be asking them to double check that I was asking all the questions that should be asked before I decide to commit to spending the rest of my life with that someone). I don't think those who advocate for marriage are wrong about things like marriage is a great instrument in making you more holy (having to live with someone else and consider their needs will do that) and a great blessing. But most churches have a huge blindspot when it comes to what are the challenges singles face (like having group activities they can go to to meet people, or not having a trusted partner to turn to when making major decisions or life catastrophes) and there's also some fear about having to deal with all that sexual temptation if you actually try to help people form relationships that lead to marriage (that's a hard thing to pastor even the most dedicated christians through).

As to how you meet people and how to conduct the beginning phases of a relationship, here's some of the wisdom I've gained over the years (that I don't necessarily follow but it does keep me from blaming the world that mr right hasn't just suddenly dropped into my lap from heaven):

• You have to go where the people are. Your perfect match is very unlikely to walk into your living room one day.
• Practice the 2 hour rule - if you're regularly spending more than 2 hours a week in one on one interaction with a person you're signaling that you're more than just friends.
• One dinner with anyone is probably tolerable even if you decide to drive there separately. So agree to one dinner unless you have a specific reason not to.
• The internet is a great tool, but you've got to be able to spend time together in person to determine if this is someone you want to live with
• When it comes to physical contact, if you can't talk about it your relationship isn't strong enough for it.
• Love wants the best for another, if you're going to say you love someone you need to seek their best (even if that's not you)
• Hormones make you crazy, so it's a good idea to let a trusted friend be the voice of reason to tell you when you're about to do something really stupid in the name of love.
• Be part of each other's worlds and communities, it's a much better way to get to know each other than to just spend time alone together apart from your existing community.
• There is no pre-ordained one, just focus on making a wise choice

ok that's about all I've got.

You know, "arranged marriage" doesn't mean you're being sold off by your parents to the highest bidder, what really happens is an arranged meeting as a starting point, it could be done by your parents, but more commonly, by a common friend, a professional matchmaker or an event organizer, then what happens next is known as "courtship", and the difference from dating is that you are paired up with a familiar face instead of a total stranger, you usually have long term commitment in mind, and you be prepared for rejecting or being rejected, in which case you report back to your matchmaker instead of blaming yourself or the person you meet. That's the best I can think of in order to honor God's original design and approach for marriage.

 

[RegisterNow]

See, we have some common ground here.

In my Christian school, the unspoken rules about sex seemed to be, "Don't think about it, don't talk about it, don't do it -- and for goodness's sake, don't ask US about it!!" At least, that's how it always felt to me. As you mentioned, it felt shameful to even ask about menstruation, though of course as a kid, I had a ton of questions I wished to ask.

And yes, I agree that history is filled with extremes. I'm very glad we're not living in times where I had to witness my parents fulfilling a loving marriage right next to us in the same room because of having only one room in the house! But society always seems to swing back and forth to extremes rather than finding a useful medium.

A healthy balance always seems elusive, and leaves so many people in pain and despair -- on either side.

This has been one of my life's goals -- to try to help and get people talking about many of the things I never heard talked about (or allowed to be talked about) in church.

I always told God that if it was His will, I wanted to grow up to be the big sister other young women could talk to about all the things I wish I were able to ask an older Christian sister (or married friend) when I was growing up.

Yeah, I have unconsciously taken the radical feminist view of "all sex is rape", which is, unfortunately, corroborated by sex scandals and p0rno contents almost everyday at nauseum. I've been taught that sex is evil and shameful in the first place, what I observed has demonstrated how sex hurts the woman and defiles yourself, then somehow it's all fine and dandy once you get married, all your frustration and your grievances will be magically fixed, not only is it no longer evil and shameful, but it glorifies the Lord, and you'll have the most amazing experience, even though you've been totally and deliberately kept ignorant. And that's why, again, I'm busting it as a scam.

If you're interested, I'd recommend Rethinking Sexuality: God's Design and Why it Matters by Dr. Juli Slater with a free copy.

 

[RegisterNow]

By asking who your own spiritual leaders are, I am trying to discern if you are someone who is doing what they are teaching -- you're telling people they need spiritual leaders and teachers and can't just study the Bible on their own.

So who are yours?

End Time Headlines podcast, pastor Brandon Rock Harbor Church, plus some rabbis.

 

[seoulsearch]

Yeah, I have unconsciously taken the radical feminist view of "all sex is rape", which is, unfortunately, corroborated by sex scandals and p0rno contents. I've been taught that sex is evil and shameful in the first place, what I observed has demonstrated how sex hurts the woman and defiles yourself, then somehow it's all fine and dandy once you get married, all your frustration and your grievances will be magically fixed, not only is it no longer evil and shameful, but it glorifies the Lord, and you'll have the most amazing experience, even though you've been totally and deliberately kept ignorant. And that's why, again, I'm busting it as a scam.

If you're interested, I'd recommend Rethinking Sexuality: God's Design and Why it Matters by Dr. Juli Slater with a free copy.

You and I are not so different as you might have thought when starting out.

I had VERY similar issues going through Christian school -- "How were we supposed to NOT think sex was evil, dirty, and a blatant sin against God when it was always presented that way in school (outside of marriage)?" "But then suddenly you get married, and boom, it's suddenly all supposed to be ok, and this huge blessing between you and your spouse solves any and all 'burning', then you're supposed to be joyful and happy and go make babies, as if you can erase all those other stigmas like writing on a chalkboard?!"

It was a horribly emotionally confusing, frightening, and shameful dilemma for my close friends and I (the ones who were willing to try to talk about it in hushed whispers among ourselves.) At times I felt so depressed over it that I fell into harmful expressions of despair. And churches have never seemed to find a way to communicate any healthy way of how to make that transition.

Reading your post took me back to being my teenage self in Christian school and I could relate to every. single. word. you wrote.

Thank you very much for sharing.

I'm going to try to look up that book you mentioned -- thank you for the recommendation!

And thank you for answering my posts. I appreciate your time and work!

 

[seoulsearch]

End Time Headlines podcast, pastor Brandon Rock Harbor Church, plus some rabbis.

Thank you for sharing this!!

I might have to check out this podcast and church.

 

[Gideon300]

It's rather a symbolic union. In the end, the bride is the city of New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:2), and the Lamb is its light (Rev. 21:22), and obviously there'll be no sex or reproduction, that's what the Sadducees and most modern people, including Christians, can't comprehend.

It's not a symbolic union. It's a far deeper union than human marriage. Human marriage is a type or a shadow of our union with Christ. In this life already we are dead and our lives hidden in Christ with God. How much more will we be conscious of that union when the constraints of the natural man are removed.

 

[Gideon300]

You and I are not so different as you might have thought when starting out.

I had VERY similar issues going through Christian school -- "How were we supposed to NOT think sex was evil, dirty, and a blatant sin against God when it was always presented that way in school (outside of marriage)?" "But then suddenly you get married, and boom, it's suddenly all supposed to be ok, and this huge blessing between you and your spouse solves any and all 'burning', then you're supposed to be joyful and happy and go make babies, as if you can erase all those other stigmas like writing on a chalkboard?!"

It was a horribly emotionally confusing, frightening, and shameful dilemma for my close friends and I (the ones who were willing to try to talk about it in hushed whispers among ourselves.) At times I felt so depressed over it that I fell into harmful expressions of despair. And churches have never seemed to find a way to communicate any healthy way of how to make that transition.

Reading your post took me back to being my teenage self in Christian school and I could relate to every. single. word. you wrote.

Thank you very much for sharing.

I'm going to try to look up that book you mentioned -- thank you for the recommendation!

And thank you for answering my posts. I appreciate your time and work!

I suggest for anyone having difficulties dealing with relationship issues to look up Mark Gungor. He is has great insight presented with an excellent sense of humour. He's the pastor of a church as well as a gifted speaker on marriage, dating etc.

 

[RegisterNow]

It's not a symbolic union. It's a far deeper union than human marriage. Human marriage is a type or a shadow of our union with Christ. In this life already we are dead and our lives hidden in Christ with God. How much more will we be conscious of that union when the constraints of the natural man are removed.

Why living in that shadow when you can cling to the real thing? In that heavenly vision, the seeds are already multipled and the fruits are already harvested, it is not comparable to its earthly counterpart. Again, eschatalogically speaking, Matt. 22:30 is the Lord's authoritative teaching on that union.

 

[RegisterNow]

* Are you saying that you are so prone to lust or at least so afraid of lust, you've kept yourself from any and all women in order to try to keep yourself from committing adultery by looking at any woman the wrong way?

* While I admire your steadfastness to remain pure in thought, how can you pass judgment on an entire gender you've apparently never had any contact with, and also apparently never will?

* What is your single superiority telling you about talking to women here? Especially when they have a picture of themselves in their avatar?

* In other words, how far do your self-righteous rules stretch? If you aren't allowed to communicate with women in real life, what do your rules say about talking to them right here, online, and in this thread?

I have no disrespect or fear for women, I just don't know anybody in real life with whom I can freely talk about these issues in English.

 

[Gideon300]

Why living in that shadow when you can cling to the real thing? In that heavenly vision, the seeds are already multipled and the fruits are already harvested, it is not comparable to its earthly counterpart. Again, eschatalogically speaking, Matt. 22:30 is the Lord's authoritative teaching on that union.

I enjoy both. I'm married now and I look forward to the marriage in heaven. I can't cling to the heavenly marriage because it is yet to happen. I don't why this is so hard to understand. Marriage is as normal as eating and drinking. That too will be better in heaven. But I do not intend to starve to death waiting for that day.