Who Killed Jesus?

[TMS]

Sin = death.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

All have sinned = ever person including you and me has sinned. Except Jesus.
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Jesus paid for our sins willingly
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

So Jesus willingly died for our sins.
And the Father gave His son. John 3:16.

When we choose to sin, we put Jesus to death.
It is our sin that caused the plan of salvation to be put in place.

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

It is our sin the put Jesus on the cross.

Crucify him, crucify him they said. They chose Barabbas in his stead. When the light of heaven is presented and we reject it, we reject Christ. We reject the only provision whereby we may be cleansed from pollution. We crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. If We are choosing barabbas instead of Christ it will be said to us, “I never knew you: depart from me ye that worketh iniquity".

Our iniquity caused the death of Jesus.

But this gift of life is their for those who...
“Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.” “Hold fast the form of sound words, ... in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.” 1Tim 6:12&2Tim 1:13.

 

[Cameron143]

Acts 2:23.

 

[rewriter]

Solving biblical issues does not follow the same exact methodologies as solving problems in science and tech. Language is an imperfect mechanism for conveying intended thoughts, and sometimes later recollections don't exactly match earlier accounts. I don't know what your agenda is, but I think you're wasting your time trying to prove incongruities that you really don't have enough data to be able to understand with certainty. Garbage research and analysis produces garbage books.

I am glad you know so much about my academic background. I will pass on to those with PhD's in New Testament who are fascinated with my work that you know that it is garbage, even though you have not seen it. I am certain they will be impressed with your opinion.

By the way, I trust that you also know all the well-respected biblical scholars that I am citing as well as the HARD, that is, not written but archeological, evidence that I am citing. But of course, it is all "clearly irrelevant" because it challenges or outright contradicts the biblical record and does so in ways that explain known problems in NT research. That is, let us take 4 known problems in the NT, 1-4. Existent NT research says the solution to 1 is A or B, for 2, C or D, for 3, E or F and for 4, G or H and none of the answers are connected to each other. My approach says the answer to 1 is A', 2, B', 3, C' and 4, D' with A' connected to B', B' to C', C' to D' and D' to A', thus connecting the entire NT better than the usual approach.

But as you have observed in your vast knowledge of my work, it is garbage.

Out of curiosity, where and when did you get your PhD in New Testament?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I am glad you know so much about my academic background. I will pass on to those with PhD's in New Testament who are fascinated with my work that you know that it is garbage, even though you have not seen it. I am certain they will be impressed with your opinion.

By the way, I trust that you also know all the well-respected biblical scholars that I am citing as well as the HARD, that is, not written but archeological, evidence that I am citing. But of course, it is all "clearly irrelevant" because it challenges or outright contradicts the biblical record and does so in ways that explain known problems in NT research. That is, let us take 4 known problems in the NT, 1-4. Existent NT research says the solution to 1 is A or B, for 2, C or D, for 3, E or F and for 4, G or H and none of the answers are connected to each other. My approach says the answer to 1 is A', 2, B', 3, C' and 4, D' with A' connected to B', B' to C', C' to D' and D' to A', thus connecting the entire NT better than the usual approach.

But as you have observed in your vast knowledge of my work, it is garbage.

Out of curiosity, where and when did you get your PhD in New Testament?

Are you seeking the truth, or are you just trying to make a name for yourself?

 

[Doll]

the question is who killed God - not whether mankind is culpable for our sin.

and the answer is clear: God cannot be killed; He laid down His own life. no one has power over Him to take His life away, that is impossible.

That's dodging the scriptures.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

@Blade you're invited to take the poll, add another answer, explain an answer here. A red x doesn't tell us anything. I appreciate if you'd be fair and tell us what your view is.

 

[posthuman]

It is simultaneously true that Jesus laid his life down and was also murdered too.

Let us examine Acts 3 where after healing a man by the temple, Peter addresses the gathering crowd.

Acts 3:11-20

11 And as the lame man which was healed held Peter and John, all the people ran together unto them in the porch that is called Solomon's, greatly wondering.

12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?

13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;

15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.

18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

1 John 3:15​

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer​

 

[SonJudgment]

1 John 3:15​

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer​

Brings us back to A while C is simultaneously true.

 

[posthuman]

the scriptures.

Hebrews 7:16​

Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.​

 

[posthuman]

Brings us back to A while C is simultaneously true.

saying our sins killed God is equivalent saying He could not bear them.

 

[SonJudgment]

saying our sins killed God is equivalent saying He could not bear them.

Not if B also applies and thus strengthens C and A in the ideal of Jesus as the sacrifice, the Lamb. Though it's already been cited, allow me to post the whole Man of Sorrows prophecy for consideration of the topic and the options as it indeed touches on the ideas of A, B, and C (and by implication, H.)

Isaiah 53

1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

 

[SonJudgment]

saying our sins killed God is equivalent saying He could not bear them.

Not if B also applies and thus strengthens C and A in the ideal of Jesus as the sacrifice, the Lamb. Though it's already been cited, allow me to post the whole Man of Sorrows prophecy for consideration of the topic and the options as it indeed touches on the ideas of A, B, and C (and by implication, H.)

Isaiah 53

1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

By taking this into account, not only is Jesus able to lay his life down and be the sacrifice for sin and bear the weight of our sins, but literally, he's the only one deemed by God to be able to so such. The perfect sacrifice, the perfect Lamb, praise Jesus.

 

[TMS]

For justice to be served Jesus needed to take our sins to the grave.

He died bearing our sins.

Sin = death. Adam needed to die for his sins and everyone that has sinned needs to die.. we would have no resurrection hope if Jesus did not die for our sins.

Jesus can give life to us because He died for us.

By studying the process of the sanctuary
The lamb without spot, and the sacrifices, you come to a better understanding.

But Jesus is the ultimate, it all points to him.

 

[posthuman]

Not if B also applies and thus strengthens C and A in the ideal of Jesus as the sacrifice, the Lamb. Though it's already been cited, allow me to post the whole Man of Sorrows prophecy for consideration of the topic and the options as it indeed touches on the ideas of A, B, and C (and by implication, H.)

Isaiah 53

1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

B is exactly C, there is only one God, and God is One

i really think, He alone laid down His life is the only justifiable answer. no one can kill Him, nothing can kill Him.

God alone can make a stone so heavy He can't move it, and God alone also can move it.

 

[posthuman]

By taking this into account, not only is Jesus able to lay his life down and be the sacrifice for sin and bear the weight of our sins, but literally, he's the only one deemed by God to be able to so such. The perfect sacrifice, the perfect Lamb, praise Jesus.

why He laid down His life isn't the same question as who killed Him.

He could have just as well not given Himself for us. if He was forced to die because we lie, cheat and steal, then grace is not grace and mercy isn't mercy - - the wages of sin become life rather than death.

our sin doesn't force His death. it's not causal - it's only predicative.

 

[posthuman]

For justice to be served Jesus needed to take our sins to the grave.

No.

That makes justice, God is culpable for our failure.


For mercy and grace He bore our sins

 

[posthuman]

No.

That makes justice, God is culpable for our failure.


For mercy and grace He bore our sins

Wow @TMS i can't remember ever disagreeing with something you wrote before

great thread, and i love you

 

[posthuman]

I think we are having some issues here in the forum. And I believe it is because of some long held beliefs that are not totally true and some are flat out myths. Before I post what I believe is the truth I would like to take a poll and see where we all stand on this question. I feel like many of the threads we have going in the BDF and other places flow from this one question. I believe it's a serious question to be answered and I'm looking forward to the results of the poll. Thank you for taking part.

loving this discussion!
thank you!

plz no one take offense at the conviction in my participation. this is great; we need this kind of poignancy =]

 

[posthuman]

Our iniquity caused the death of Jesus.

i would say, the divine sorrow over our iniquity caused Jesus to choose His own temporal death in order to prevent our eternal one.

if no one else does, God still has free will

 

[posthuman]

i would say, the divine sorrow over our iniquity caused Jesus to choose His own temporal death in order to prevent our eternal one.

that is, His character is the causal contribution, not our iniquity. nothing forces Him to die; Who He is doesn't allow Himself to do anything less than what is necessary to save us.

therefore no one takes His life; He lays it down.