144,000: The first resurrection and rapture of the church

[Psalm1]

Who are these 144k Jews you are referencing?

The bible says they are ethnic Jews.
144,000 Jewish men that are messianic Jews and that they are firstfruits. They have a seal in their foreheads and only they are forbidden by the flying scorpions to sting.
They are in heaven , caught up possibly, to heaven DURING the trib.
Main harvest of Jews follows them as they ( the 144,000), are harvested first as firstfruits.

The bible says all that.
I simply report what was written.

I have no need to modify it, change it, or need some part of it omitted.

 

[FlyingDove]

The bible says they are ethnic Jews.
144,000 Jewish men that are messianic Jews and that they are firstfruits. They have a seal in their foreheads and only they are forbidden by the flying scorpions to sting.
They are in heaven , caught up possibly, to heaven DURING the trib.
Main harvest of Jews follows them as they ( the 144,000), are harvested first as firstfruits.

The bible says all that.
I simply report what was written.

I have no need to modify it, change it, or need some part of it omitted.

The verses I posted (I didn't write, modify or change them) say:

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
(MY NOTE: redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.)

Matt 27:
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
(MY NOTE: Here during the Passover Feast on firstfruits! We see the 1st soul harvest resurrection. My post closed with, I BELIVE, these are the 144k seen in Rev 4 & 14 (I didn't say, but, believe it included many others). As cited with scripture (in my posts, in this thread) they AIN'T ALL JEWS! I believe Noah (NOT JEWISH), we see in the My transfiguration vision, Moses in heaven. He's from the Tribe of Levi not Judah.

The 1st soul harvest resurrection happened Passover week on firstfruits (DONE! read the verses above), the main soul Harvest will be (Jew & Gentile believers) at a soon coming Pentecost/rapture & the final gathering at a future Tabernacles.

So, again, I respectfully disagree with your posted position. Best wishes, FD.

 

[Blade]

Over my life I've heard things and be it man or angel I need chapter and verse and I test as He told us the spirits. If its of GOD He always shows you where its written. He will not can not go out side of His word. A simple "I need Chapter and verse lord" and since its written to test the spirits He always shows us where.

 

[Psalm1]

The verses I posted (I didn't write, modify or change them) say:

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
(MY NOTE: redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.)

Matt 27:
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
(MY NOTE: Here during the Passover Feast on firstfruits! We see the 1st soul harvest resurrection. My post closed with, I BELIVE, these are the 144k seen in Rev 4 & 14 (I didn't say, but, believe it included many others). As cited with scripture (in my posts, in this thread) they AIN'T ALL JEWS! I believe Noah (NOT JEWISH), we see in the My transfiguration vision, Moses in heaven. He's from the Tribe of Levi not Judah.

The 1st soul harvest resurrection happened Passover week on firstfruits (DONE! read the verses above), the main soul Harvest will be (Jew & Gentile believers) at a soon coming Pentecost/rapture & the final gathering at a future Tabernacles.

So, again, I respectfully disagree with your posted position. Best wishes, FD.

Huh ?

They that were resurrected alongside Jesus 2000 yrs ago are the 144k?

The flying scorpions told to not sting them is also some spiritual application.?

They are not ethnic Jews?

What tribes were they from?
African?
Native American?

Wait, we actually KNOW THEY ARE ETHNIC JEWS, AND WHAT TRIBES, AND THE EXACT NUMBER.


Are you Historicist in eschatology?
Preterist?

Why do you need the 144,000 changed?

 

[Psalm1]

Why not just accept who the Scriptures says the 144,000 are?
12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel.

To protect a doctrine.
Same with the virgin parable.
Doctrine MUST CHANGE IT.

Flat out bizarre.
I am so glad that in 1976 when I got saved, I was exposed to the correct teachers.
Bible was sacred, Holy , and ruled.
( over doctrine)

 

[Psalm1]

Over my life I've heard things and be it man or angel I need chapter and verse and I test as He told us the spirits. If its of GOD He always shows you where its written. He will not can not go out side of His word. A simple "I need Chapter and verse lord" and since its written to test the spirits He always shows us where.

It is the spirit of truth that leads those that are His.
We see ch. and verse in here a lot that are way out of context and meaning.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The bible says they are ethnic Jews.
144,000 Jewish men that are messianic Jews and that they are firstfruits. They have a seal in their foreheads and only they are

Where is ethnicity mentioned regarding the 144,000? It isn't. We wild olive branches who are grafted in amongst the natural olive branches become a member of one of the tribes based on God's choice, because everyone in Israel belongs to a tribe.

 

[FlyingDove]

Huh ?

They that were resurrected alongside Jesus 2000 yrs ago are the 144k?

The flying scorpions told to not sting them is also some spiritual application.?

They are not ethnic Jews?

What tribes were they from?
African?
Native American?

Wait, we actually KNOW THEY ARE ETHNIC JEWS, AND WHAT TRIBES, AND THE EXACT NUMBER.


Are you Historicist in eschatology?
Preterist?

Why do you need the 144,000 changed?

Yes, the 144k were resurrected right after Jesus:

Rev 14:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
(MY NOTE: 144k redeemed from among men, """BEING the FIRSTFRUITS""" unto God and to the Lamb.)

Matt 27:
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many
(MY NOTE: Just read the scripture)

1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
(MY NOTE: Christ is resurrected 1st & those seen coming out of the grave after Him are the 144k FIRSTFRUITS seen in Rev 14:4)

Finally,
Although every Jew is an Israelis not every Israelis is a Jew. Jews are from the TRIBE of JUDAH!

Rev 7:4–8 lists the 144k as sealed from every TRIBE of the sons of Israel/Jacob.

Rev 14:1–5 describes them as redeemed, pure, and FIRSTFRUITS,

At biblegateway.com I read these posted verses (60+ versions) & the wording is consistent: TRIBES of Israel, not Jews. Reading & rereading your anachronistic position has become boring. FD out

 

[ATG]

Why not just accept who the Scriptures says the 144,000 are?
12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel.

By the reasons given in the argument. If you missed them, then you can read them again.

 

[ATG]

Psalm 125:1
They that trust in the Lord shall be as mount Zion, which cannot be removed, but abideth for ever.

Psalm 132:13
For the Lord hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation(Heart/Holy Spirit).

Rev 14 is not Mt Zion on earth, but heavenly Mt Sion, which the firstfruits of God and the Lamb are coming to, whether Jew or Gentile.

Rev 14:1
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Heb 12:22
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

 

[ATG]

When God was showing me the things that were to take place,He came to visit me the night before the testimony of Two Witnesses, and blew his breath on me,and I was transformed.Then he left saying he had others to see.
That's what will happen to the 144,000 who are placed all over the earth.They will be in Spiritual Israel,which is the true Israel.

This is how all saints and servants are begotten of God in Christ Jesus.

However, the sealing of the fulness of the saints, is while the four winds are stilled by angels, in a worldwide event with nature. And the seal is seen visible in the forehead. Therefore, it's not the unseen sealing of the Holy Ghost, but is the resurrection of all the saved Israel of God, at the Lamb's return from Sion.

Rom 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

 

[ATG]

Hearing and then seeing is a theme in Revelation.

Earlier in the same book, John records this passage:

“Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?”
But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it.
I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5 Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

While John is weeping, the elder says to him "See, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah..."
John hears "Look, the Lion!" One would expect to see some type of a lion.

But then John turns to look and he sees this:

"Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain..."

Hears "Look a lion!" -> Sees a lamb that looked like it had been slain.
Now, we know that the lion and the lamb refer to neither animal but to a specific person: Christ Jesus.

Well done! I've been looking for a sound explanation like this, that is taken directly from Scripture.

The Lord is heard heard as a Lion, and seen as a Lamb.

Joe 3:16
The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

It's visions of character and conduct, that are different for each, but of the same Person.

This pattern is also relevant to the passage in Revelation 7.

And I would add Rev 14, where the Lamb stands on Mt Sion, and the Son of man sits on the white cloud. Also, Rev 19 where the Lord of LORDS sits upon a white horse. All can be visions of different events by the same Person:

The Lord Jesus Christ returns riding a white horse from heaven, sits on a white cloud to reap His resurrection harvest, and stands on heavenly Mt Sion in the air with His raptured saints. Who walk with Him in white:

Rev 3:4
Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

John hears the number of those who were sealed;

Revelation 7 "Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel."

And then the number from each tribe is enumerated:

"From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad... etc."

Notice, this was to be a list from "all the tribes of Israel" yet it is not: Dan is missing and Mannasseh, one of Joseph's sons, is added.

Exactly. Scripture is broken if these tribes are read to be the 12 tribes of natural Israel, whose names were written on precious stones of the high priest's garment.

So, just from the text (and excluding any religious gymnastics) we should know that this is NOT a list of the physical tribes of Israel.

This is something else.

Correct. The new names of the tribes of the Israel of God, written on the heart of the eternal High Priest, the Lamb of God upon Mt Sion:

1Pe 2:6
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

So John hears "144,000 from the tribes of Israel!" (a specific number and specific types of people) and then he looks and sees...

"After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb."

...he sees a great multitude no one could count.

At this point the comparison is broken. In other places the same person is envisioned differently, but here we have a counted number, and a multitude that cannot be counted by any man, including John, whether by seeing or hearing...

The 2nd part of Rev 7 is relative to Rev 21 in New Jerusalem, where God dwells with men serving Him and the Lamb in His temple, where sun need not shine, and are fed and drinking living waters, with all tears wiped away.

This is not a count of 144,000 Israelites. It is something else.

Rom 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

The fulness of the Jews first, and also the Gentiles, being heard in all the saved Israel of God, is 144,000 sealed, redeemed, and firstfruits of the Lamb on Sion.

 

[memberofthebride]

Well done! I've been looking for a sound explanation like this, that is taken directly from Scripture.

The Lord is heard heard as a Lion, and seen as a Lamb.

Joe 3:16
The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

It's visions of character and conduct, that are different for each, but of the same Person.


And I would add Rev 14, where the Lamb stands on Mt Sion, and the Son of man sits on the white cloud. Also, Rev 19 where the Lord of LORDS sits upon a white horse. All can be visions of different events by the same Person:

The Lord Jesus Christ returns riding a white horse from heaven, sits on a white cloud to reap His resurrection harvest, and stands on heavenly Mt Sion in the air with His raptured saints. Who walk with Him in white:

Rev 3:4
Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.


Exactly. Scripture is broken if these tribes are read to be the 12 tribes of natural Israel, whose names were written on precious stones of the high priest's garment.



Correct. The new names of the tribes of the Israel of God, written on the heart of the eternal High Priest, the Lamb of God upon Mt Sion:

1Pe 2:6
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.


At this point the comparison is broken. In other places the same person is envisioned differently, but here we have a counted number, and a multitude that cannot be counted by any man, including John, whether by seeing or hearing...

The 2nd part of Rev 7 is relative to Rev 21 in New Jerusalem, where God dwells with men serving Him and the Lamb in His temple, where sun need not shine, and are fed and drinking living waters, with all tears wiped away.



Rom 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

The fulness of the Jews first, and also the Gentiles, being heard in all the saved Israel of God, is 144,000 sealed, redeemed, and firstfruits of the Lamb on Sion.

MY Comments:

"that blindness in part is happened to Israel" ever heard of the Lost 10 Tribes?? the House of Israel, 10 tribes, do not know who they are, they are blind. they are Hebrews.

the House of Judah, the Jews, will not be offered salvation until after the return of Christ.
Paul was sent to the gentiles,, Jesus Christ sent the 12 Apostles to the House of Israel,

Matthew 10

5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. lost and do not know who they are.

After Solomon, God divided the 12 tribes, 10 tribes are the House of Israel and 2 tribes are the House of Judah -- the Jews == jew-dah slang term for Judah

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

the House of Judah, the Jews, will not be offered salvation until after the return of Christ.

But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: Acts 2:14​

​

Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:37-38​

​

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. Acts 2:41​

 

[Lifted_by_the_word]

This is how all saints and servants are begotten of God in Christ Jesus.

However, the sealing of the fulness of the saints, is while the four winds are stilled by angels, in a worldwide event with nature. And the seal is seen visible in the forehead. Therefore, it's not the unseen sealing of the Holy Ghost, but is the resurrection of all the saved Israel of God, at the Lamb's return from Sion.

Rom 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Being sealed on the forehead is symbolic of having the word of God written on our foreheads.Look at the brain.It is halved into two which makes it look like two stone tablets.So if you had a mind for God then it is liken to the 10 commandments bring written on two living stones tablets.
Again,think of the brain as a scroll and you as a servant of a king who beckoned you over to deliver a message.He will place a seal on the scroll then he will send you on your way to deliver that message.When it is opened it is as if the king himself were speaking.That's why a seal would be placed on a message so nobody would tamper with it,and everyone will know that this is the king's seal.

 

[ATG]

The tribe of Dan is not listed in the 12 tribes in Revelation 7; it is replaced by the tribe of Joseph (or Manasseh, one of Joseph's sons). The omission is a deliberate one, with scholars suggesting it's a punishment for the tribe's historical idolatry and lack of faith, which are detailed in the Old Testament books of Judges.

Why Dan is not listed

• Idolatry: The tribe of Dan is noted for its early and persistent idol worship, a practice God condemned.
• Judges 17-18: The Book of Judges provides a detailed account of the tribe's actions, including the establishment of a pagan shrine and idol, which led to its exclusion from the list.
• Omission as punishment: Some biblical scholars interpret the omission as a deliberate judgment on the tribe for its actions, noting the tribe of Joseph is listed instead.

This may be deserved, but is not confirmed in any OT Scripture. Nowhere in Scripture was the name of the tribe ever struck from the high priest's breastplate. Nowhere in Scripture is Dan prophesied to be changed nor removed from among the natural children of Israel.

NT prophecy does not change OT Scripture: all the OT tribes of Israel were always listed the same, without change.

The tribe and name is obviously replaced in a listing of tribes of Israel, in the New Testament, not in the Old, where the NT gospel and doctrine of Christ rules: NT prophecy cannot contradict NT rule.

Gal 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

A specific declaration that the Israel of God is not by flesh and circumcision, but only by a new creature walking according to the rule of Christ.

Rom 9:7
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Gal 3:7
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

A specific rebuke to any teaching or prophecy, that the children of Abraham and of Christ, are by the flesh. All redeemed Christians are the children of Abraham and Christ grafted into the Israel of God.

Changing the name and tribe of Dan in NT prophecy of the tribes of Israel, may indeed be punishment for their OT apostacy, but then what makes their tribe any worse than the tribes that had the LORD crucified? Were all the priests and rulers Danites? All the natural children of Israel were concluded in unbelief at the cross of Christ:

Rom 11:31
Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

It is the sealed Israel of God, that is prophesied in the NT book of Revelation.

Rom 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

This is also NT prophecy, that says the Jews and Gentiles are now being grafted into the Israel of God, and the Deliverer shall come again from Sion, and all the Israel shall be saved, which can now only be the Israel of God in Christ Jesus, not all of natural Israel after the flesh.

The crucified and risen Lamb of God is now redeeming all that repent for His name's sake, and grafting Jew and Gentile alike into His body of Israel. The Lamb of Sion does not come again for the Jews first, and certainly not for the Jews only...

Jhn 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

2Ti 4:6
For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

1Pe 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

Timothy was a Gentile convert to Jesus Christ, not a Jew...

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Timothy was a Gentile convert to Jesus Christ, not a Jew...

His mother was Jewish, so under rabbinic law he would have been considered Jewish. Whether that carried weight back then, we simply don't know.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Dan does appear in Revelation 7 IMO, but you have to have spiritual eyes to see it

Dan shall judge his people as one tribe of Israel. Genesis 49:16​

 

[ATG]

The tribe of Dan is not listed in the 12 tribes in Revelation 7; it is replaced by the tribe of Joseph (or Manasseh, one of Joseph's sons). The omission is a deliberate one, with scholars suggesting it's a punishment for the tribe's historical idolatry and lack of faith, which are detailed in the Old Testament books of Judges.

Why Dan is not listed

• Idolatry: The tribe of Dan is noted for its early and persistent idol worship, a practice God condemned.
• Judges 17-18: The Book of Judges provides a detailed account of the tribe's actions, including the establishment of a pagan shrine and idol, which led to its exclusion from the list.
• Omission as punishment: Some biblical scholars interpret the omission as a deliberate judgment on the tribe for its actions, noting the tribe of Joseph is listed instead.

Scripture confirms or rejects any interpretation of prophecy:

Eze 48:1
Now these are the names of the tribes. From the north end to the coast of the way of Hethlon, as one goeth to Hamath, Hazarenan, the border of Damascus northward, to the coast of Hamath; for these are his sides east and west; a portion for Dan.

Eze 48:2
And by the border of Dan, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Asher.

If prophecy in Revelation now strikes Dan from the tribes of the children of Israel, why does prophecy in Ezekiel reckon the tribe of Dan their portion of the land, that is promised to Abraham and His natural seed. In fact, as if to seal the point, they are first named of all the tribes of the natural children of Israel, to receive their portion of land during the Millennium of Christ?

If NT prophesy strikes the natural tribe of Dan from among the tribes of Israel, then NT prophecy breaks OT prophecy... God forbid.

 

[Aaron56]

Well done! I've been looking for a sound explanation like this, that is taken directly from Scripture.

The Lord is heard heard as a Lion, and seen as a Lamb.

Joe 3:16
The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

It's visions of character and conduct, that are different for each, but of the same Person.


And I would add Rev 14, where the Lamb stands on Mt Sion, and the Son of man sits on the white cloud. Also, Rev 19 where the Lord of LORDS sits upon a white horse. All can be visions of different events by the same Person:

The Lord Jesus Christ returns riding a white horse from heaven, sits on a white cloud to reap His resurrection harvest, and stands on heavenly Mt Sion in the air with His raptured saints. Who walk with Him in white:

Rev 3:4
Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.


Exactly. Scripture is broken if these tribes are read to be the 12 tribes of natural Israel, whose names were written on precious stones of the high priest's garment.



Correct. The new names of the tribes of the Israel of God, written on the heart of the eternal High Priest, the Lamb of God upon Mt Sion:

1Pe 2:6
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.


At this point the comparison is broken. In other places the same person is envisioned differently, but here we have a counted number, and a multitude that cannot be counted by any man, including John, whether by seeing or hearing...

The 2nd part of Rev 7 is relative to Rev 21 in New Jerusalem, where God dwells with men serving Him and the Lamb in His temple, where sun need not shine, and are fed and drinking living waters, with all tears wiped away.



Rom 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

The fulness of the Jews first, and also the Gentiles, being heard in all the saved Israel of God, is 144,000 sealed, redeemed, and firstfruits of the Lamb on Sion.

The number 144,000 is intentional and signifies "fullness that is immeasurable".

We have
12 (the number of government)
x
12 (this may also signify perfect governmental rule)
x
1000 (perfection)

It's not a coincidence that is what John calls what He sees: "..a great multitude no one can count."

"But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

THIS is the heavenly Zion: that we may call on His name and be saved. That is the power of His rule displayed to all men: more than John could count.