Rapture true or false

[ATG]

Jesus said " future tribulation such as the world has never seen, and never will see again".
A destroyed earth.

You say no.

Correct. I've given Scripture and reasons. You disagree, which is fine. But without showing any error in my argument, then it's useless. I.e. just saying 'na-ah' doesn't correct anything.

You say " As normal as it was in the days of Noah before the flood..."

1. " As normal as it was in the days of Noah before the flood..." shows that the days immediately prior to Jesus' return are as wickedly full of partying and mayhem as in the days of Noah. Normal for the ungodly, not for the decent and godly...

2. Those are the days just before His return, not the days of the Lord's great tribulation and wrath after His return.

You really don't seem at times to follow what I'm saying. Try not to reshape things from others, to fit into your own preferred ideas. If we first clearly understand what someone else is saying, whether we agree or not, then we can more accurately respond to their point.

 

[ATG]

Psssst...Noah left the earth.
He returned postflood.( POSTRIB)

You've entered into strange mysteryland stuff. Noah was in an ark that was upon the waters of the earth. He didn't leave the earth...

You deal has Noah LEAVING AFTER THE FLOOD.

I haven't nothing to do with Noah leaving nor returning to the earth in the days of the flood.

Noah didn't leave the earth until he died, and won't 'return' again until resurrected from the grave with all the saints of God, at His Christ's return...

....and Lot LEAVING AFTER THE JUDGEMENT.

Lot and his wife and daughters left Sodom before it's destruction and the cities round about...

To avoid misrepresenting what others are saying, try asking for clarification first...Otherwise, all you begin to do is teaching against something, that no one else is teaching. A waste of time.

Your deal has a Satanist in bed with a born again believer.

It gets continually worse for your position.

The bible testifies AGAINST all your points.

Your deal is strange, off base, and empty wrath.

It's more fruitful to show how someone's argument differs with Scripture, rather than just saying so. But first remember to address the person's argument, not something else reshaped in your own mind...

 

[ATG]

Quote
"It's a gathering of the sealed people of God, which are now only in Christ Jesus. Where there is neither Jew nor Gentile, but only redeemed saints of God.""

Nope.
You are wrong again.
ONLY THE 144,000 ARE SEALED.

"It's a gathering of the sealed people of God,.."

I'm seeing a distinct disconnect between what I say, and your response. Do you read what others say, or just pre-plan contradictions, that don't even contradict? Are you only happy when you're telling people they're wrong, even when they're saying the same thing?

Rev 14:14 is main harvest Jews. NOT SEALED.
...but you need it changed.

I've given the Scriptural reasons why they can't all be Jews of the OT natural tribes of Israel.

THE bible EXPLICITY states those sealed are ONLY THE 144,000.

No one has said otherwise. Now you seem to like disagreeing so much, that you disagree with something not ever said...

I really don't remember if you've agreed with anything I've said in all our exchanges. That's not a problem, unless disagreeing is just your personal M.O.

Let's try some basics: Jesus is the Christ. Jesus Christ is risen from the dead. Jesus Christ sits on the right hand of the majesty on high.

Agree or disagree?

 

[ATG]

Ok
You are replacement theology.

If I understand it right, replacement theology says that the natural Jews no longer have any special promise on earth from God. That's half true, half false.

1. There are no more special people according to the flesh, when repenting and being saved and justified by the Lord Jesus, whether Jew or Gentile.

2. There still remains the land promise God made to Abraham and his natural seed. The kingdom under David did just stretch from the river of Egypt to the river Euphrates. However, that was not the land that is still promised to Abraham personally.

Gen 15:7
And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.

Gen 17:8
And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Ezek 40+ shows the Lord's temple, Jewish priestly service, and land divided to them.

Therefore, while Israel after the flesh now has no special promise during the building of Jesus' church on earth, Abraham and his natural seed still have a special land promise to be fulfilled by the Lord Christ Himself.

No understanding of the 2 covenants.
(The 2 wives)

Covenants are not called wives in Scripture. While Hagar in Gal 4 is an allegory of the old Covenant, she was not Abraham's wife.

In Hosea, what do you do ?, since Gomer must illustrate a clone of herself?????

I don't do anything, when you travel off into strangeville, such as Noah 'leaving' and 'returning' to the earth during the flood...

Psalm1 said:
"You have no understanding of "the time of the Gentiles completed",

Your overgeneralized reply;
""The time of the nations ruled by unjust men, will end at the Lord's return. He will resurrect and rapture all His firstfruit harvest from the earth, defeat the armies of the nations, and govern all nations with His resurrected saints.""

Even Paul SEPARATED the Jewish covenant people having a separate place in God to be brought in AS A GROUP in the distant future.

Rom 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Now is the time when Jews and Gentiles are grafted into the Israel of God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

When Jesus returns as Deliverer of Sion, then all the Israel of God and the Lamb shall be saved, resurrected, and raptured to meet Him in the air.

No wonder you struggle with the 144,000 and the Jewish gathering of rev 14:14.

I don't struggle with false interpretation of prophecy, that dismisses the NT gospel, doctrine, and promises of the risen Lord Jesus Christ.

There is no more Jew nor Greek in the body of Christ and grafted Israel of God, which are all summarily raised in number 144,000. Who will stand with our Deliverer the Lamb of God Jesus Christ on Mt Sion in the heaven over earth.

The land promised to Abraham and his natural seed, will then be given when the Lord Himself stands on Mt Zion and is seated King in Jeruslaem.

Anyone believing that natural Jews now have a special relationship and access to the NT grace of God by Jesus Christ, are Judaizers preaching respect for the flesh.

Anyone believing any part of the OT still has power to save the natural Jews, are Judaizers preaching circumcision of the flesh.

 

[ATG]

Brother ! Concerning your " arguments" @Psalm1 :

1. Matthew 7:6 – “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.”
   This verse suggests that when people are not receptive to the truth, continuing to offer it to them may be futile and even harmful.
   
   
   
2. Titus 3:10-11 – “Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them. You may be sure that such people are warped and sinful; they are self-condemned.”
   This passage advises believers not to engage in endless arguments with those who reject the truth, especially when they persist in divisiveness.

1. Correct. and I agree. When I see that we only repeat ourselves, with nothing new added, then I move on. In the meantime I try to glean as much as possible. Many times disagreement leads to better understanding of Scripture, by correcting errors. That's why I don't only seek to engage Christians I already agree with. I welcome disagreement, so long as it's fruitful and not getting personal.

Blessings Brother

God bless you too.

 

[ATG]

A contrasting view.
The entire concept of "the Rapture" was not known for 1,800+ yrs and "suddenly" there it is.

Welcome. It's always good to clarify things first.

Rapture is not a word translated from the Bible, but only an attempt at description for easy reference. Much the same as the Trinity, which is not translatable from Scripture, but is used for the Godhead of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Trinity wasn't coined until about the 3rd century.

As a matter of grammar, rapture is a passion word, that is applied to the church being caught up into the air to meet the Lord. In itself it's harmless, and I use it here simply to keep consistency in the thread about the rapture.

One point. The modern misconception about the rapture is the sudden 'disappearance' of the church from the earth. Not true.

The 'process' of the rapture is twofold: First the resurrection from the grave of all the dead saints in Christ. Along with all the saints remaining alive being changed immortal. That is the blessed event, that is in a moment and twinkling of the eye.

Secondly, is all the resurrected and changed saints caught away together into the air. That blessed event is not iinstantaneously, but rather an ascension like that of the risen Jesus Christ in Acts 1, and the resurrected two witnesses in Rev 11. That will be in sight of all people on earth.

The passionate 'rapture' therefore includes both the instant blessed first resurrection of the church, and also their blessed ascent into the air, for all eyes to see. (The third blessed part is the angels of God gathering all the risen saints together, to meet the Lord where He is in the air.)

Think about that for just a moment. The people the Apostles taught did not know anything about end times eschatology.

This is not true, since end times 'eschatology' is the apostles' teaching of the last days in Scripture. They consistently confirmed they were in the last days:

Act 2:17
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Heb 1:1
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

1Jo 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Nowhere, does any apostle write that these last days have ended. And so, we see that we have all been in the last days, since the beginning of Jesus' own resurrection and church on earth.

The question therefore is, exactly what are the last days? All we know from Scripture is that the people of God are blessed with gifts of the Holy Ghost, pastors and teachers are sent to edify the saints, and are accompanied with false prophets, antichrists, scoffers, and perilous times.

Pretty much a renewed ongoing cycle from generation to generation, wherever the gospel is preached...

We can be assured of one thing, that the evil parts of these last days will end, when the Lord comes again to resurrect and catch away, aka rapture, His church unto Himself, and pour righteous wrath upon the inhabitants left on earth.

So, who was the only person in 1,830 years of Christian biblical scholarship to come up with or "invent" this End Times Theology?

Once again, your conflating two different arguments here. Though 'rapture' is only a coined word for last days theology, the doctrine of the last days is by the apostles beginning in their own days...

He was an especially important voice behind the spread of dispensationalism in America, a theology that popularized ideas such as the “rapture.”

I'm not altogether clear about dispensationalism. I believe it has to do with 'ways' of God dealing with man through history. For me, that's more of an observational teaching, based upon Bible history. Not necessarily teaching of Scripture.

By the end of World War II, over two million copies had been sold, becoming known by some as the “Bible of fundamentalism,” as it had not been "discovered" by any Catholic or Protestant Church anywhere in the world.

Fundamentalism for me, is simply taking the Scriptures literal wherever possible, and living accordingly by faith in Jesus.

The Late Great Planet Earth is a 1970 book by Hal Lindsey, with contributions by Carole C. Carlson.

I believe this is where the false notion of the raptured 'disappearing' church was popularized. I haven't read it, nor seen the movies and shows, but that was a main point.

 

[ATG]

A contrasting view.
As such, it compared end-time prophecies in the Bible with then-current events in an attempt to predict future scenarios

Now, here has been the same stumbling block of many would be prophets, that were also in the days of the apostles.

2Th 2:2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means:

If you are pushing back against end-days charlatans, then I'm all for it. Sincere believers have always been decieved by newly risen prophets and apostles, predicting the coming of the Lord. Just don't throw out the last days teaching with the end days opportunists.

resulting in the rapture of believers before the Great Tribulation and Second Coming of Jesus to establish his thousand-year (i.e. millennial) kingdom on Earth.

The rapture is at His second coming, with His great wrath following upon the earth. And after His war over the gathered armies of nations around Judea, He'll then inherit all nations by victory, and sit as King in Jerusalem for a thousand years.

Following Darby’s details, Lindsey emphasized various passages in the books of Daniel, Ezekiel and Revelation, Lindsey originally predicted that these climactic events would occur during the 1980s, which he interpreted as one generation from the foundation of modern Israel during 1948, which is a major event according Lindsey.

It's certainly a major event in modern nations, but not necessarily in the Lord's return.

2Th 2:2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The only clear caveat for the Lord's return is a falling away from the body of Christ. Christians that do not remain faithful to the end. But once again, such departure from the apostles and their doctrine began during their own time...

Act 15:24
Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment.

Judaizers were the first to fall away for 'Christian-Judaism'.

1Jo 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

And then other Christians would fall away for various false apostles and gospels...

The bottom line is that if any new prophet guru comes around with another prediction of the Lord's return, the last thing Christians want to do is run to the hills with him. Or her.

Lindsey followed the Darby playbook but added modern (cicra 1980) events to make Darby’s claims seem more relevant. Lindsey was married 4 times. As his predictions failed to happen, he wrote 31 additional books each updating and revising his links between widely scattered bible prophesies and real events. His prophesies had an important influence on the Ronald Reagan administration and Reagan himself who came to call Russia the evil empire as he adopted Lindsey’s terminology.

Seriously. It didn't take some end-time revelator to clue in Ronald Reagan about the evils of world communism. Now, if you can provide a quote from Reagan about his personal prophet Lindsey, then you would have a point. The fact that other people try to tie Reagan's 1983 speech on the Soviet evil empire, only shows how they themselves were overly caught up in Lindsey's end time stuff.

For the rest of us we watch generation by generation of the End Times fail over and over and over.

Once again. This is misleading. The end times don't fail, but only predictions of end times ending with the Lord's return.

The last days beginning among the apostles of our Lord, are still the last days among the churches of our God in Christ Jesus.

There is a concept popular in the country community where I was raised. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity even when there are "signs" to make you try again. This is exactly why Las Vegas casinos make big $$$. There is always a "true believer" out there to fuel their wealth.

Oh, you mean socialism. Totally agree. Marxists always like to promise they can 'do it better', just before they get power and fleece the warmed over useful idiots... New York! New York!

 

[ATG]

Irenaeus of Lyon (c. 130–202 AD): Taught around 180 AD in Against Heresies. - Irenaeus of Lyons did not teach a pre-tribulation rapture; instead, he taught that the church would endure the tribulation, with the resurrection of the righteous occurring after the arrival of the Antichrist.

Of course. That's obviously correct. No one can read Jesus' own warnings and sufferings, as well as that of the the apostles and Revelation, without knowing that false teachers, prophets, apostles, antichrists, etc... cause much trouble and tribulation among the saints from within the churches of God, that is added to the normal persecution of the godly by the ungodly.

That's as evil and old as Cain slaying His righteous brother Abel over false sacrifice.

He believed that the Church would experience a future, more intense period of tribulation and would likely be alive during the reign of the Antichrist.

Correct again. Although there have troubles and tribulation from false brethren in the last days of the apostles, Jesus warned of a greater persecution worldwide from false christs. There will simply be an end to these last days of tribulation and wrath upon God's people, when the Lord returns to receive them unto Himself in the air. I.e. that 'man of sin' and Judas-like 'son of perdition' will be the last great antichrist on earth, with the last great persecution upon the saints, just before the Lord comes again to end it on earth.

So, when it comes to the tribulation and wrath of of evil men upon the saints, yes, the Lord comes again to end it.

Mat 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Some have tried to claim he was a pre-tribulationist by taking his writings out of context, but the historical consensus is that his views aligned with historical premillennialism i.e. sufferings will happen before the second coming

Correct. Sufferings of saints worldwide. Greater than the last days of Roman persecution.

Based on his writings, Victorinus of Poetovio taught a pre-wrath view of the rapture, not a pre-tribulation one. While his eschatology does describe the Church being removed before the final stage of divine wrath,

And here we have the all-important clarifier, between the tribulation and wrath of the ungodly upon the godly, and the tribulation and wrath of God upon the ungodly.

The last great persecution upon the ungodly will be ended by the Lord's return, followed by the last great wrath of the Lamb upon the ungodly. Then comes His Millennial kingdom on a cleansed earth, and the fulfillment of Christ's promise at His first coming:

Luk 2:13
And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

The claim that he taught a modern pre-tribulation rapture is inaccurate.

If it means pre-tribulation of the ungodly upon the godly, then correct. Afterall, it's not possible for the Lord to return pre-tribulation and wrath of man upon the saints. That's been going on since Cain slew righteous Abel. And the Lord Himself was crucified...

Pre-trib rapture is only prior to the Lord's righteous tribulation and wrath upon the ungodly, not resurrected and caught away to meet him in the air.

2Th 1:6
Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you. And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

a view that was common in his era and which suggested God's deliverance of the righteous at or during the end, not before the tribulation began.

Correct again. The last great tribulation, by the last great antichrist, and first and foremost beast, will be shortly ended by the Lord's return. Which will be entirely before His own tribulation and indignation upon them on earth.

None of the resurrected and raptured saints in the air with the Lord, will endure any wrath of the Lord, no more than anyone dwelling forever with God and the Lamb in the New Jerusalem

His eschatology focused on the spiritual progress of the church on Earth and the Second Coming of Christ, not a separate, pre-tribulation rapture event.

The church on earth is always spiritually growing in Christ, as well as undergoing persecution of the ungodly. The growth will end in His resurrection perfection, and the persecution will end in His wrath at His second coming.

Gill believed that the "tribulation" was a non-literal period occurring throughout church history and that the rapture would happen after this tribulation, not before it.

Correct again, exactly. Except the 'nonliteral' period of tribulation on earth. Cain literally killed Abel, and Jesus Christ literally suffered on the cross, and all the godly literally suffer persecution by the ungodly. Perhaps he simply meant it was an undetermined period of saints enduring tribulation on earth, which is true, since the hour and day is still not known...

The idea of a pre-tribulation rapture did not exist in Wesley's time and was not popularized until the 19th century, well after his death.

It has since the times of the apostles. Resurrection and rapture of saints pre-trib wrath of God:

Mat 13:29
But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 24:48
But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming, And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken, The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

1Th 5:1
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ...Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Post-trib wrath of the ungodly.

Matth 13:20
But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Act 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

2Ti 3:12
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Rom 2:7
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh

 

[biblestudent78]

Now, here has been the same stumbling block of many would be prophets, that were also in the days of the apostles.

2Th 2:2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means:

If you are pushing back against end-days charlatans, then I'm all for it. Sincere believers have always been decieved by newly risen prophets and apostles, predicting the coming of the Lord. Just don't throw out the last days teaching with the end days opportunists.



The rapture is at His second coming, with His great wrath following upon the earth. And after His war over the gathered armies of nations around Judea, He'll then inherit all nations by victory, and sit as King in Jerusalem for a thousand years.



It's certainly a major event in modern nations, but not necessarily in the Lord's return.

2Th 2:2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The only clear caveat for the Lord's return is a falling away from the body of Christ. Christians that do not remain faithful to the end. But once again, such departure from the apostles and their doctrine began during their own time...

Act 15:24
Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment.

Judaizers were the first to fall away for 'Christian-Judaism'.

1Jo 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

And then other Christians would fall away for various false apostles and gospels...

The bottom line is that if any new prophet guru comes around with another prediction of the Lord's return, the last thing Christians want to do is run to the hills with him. Or her.



Seriously. It didn't take some end-time revelator to clue in Ronald Reagan about the evils of world communism. Now, if you can provide a quote from Reagan about his personal prophet Lindsey, then you would have a point. The fact that other people try to tie Reagan's 1983 speech on the Soviet evil empire, only shows how they themselves were overly caught up in Lindsey's end time stuff.



Once again. This is misleading. The end times don't fail, but only predictions of end times ending with the Lord's return.

The last days beginning among the apostles of our Lord, are still the last days among the churches of our God in Christ Jesus.



Oh, you mean socialism. Totally agree. Marxists always like to promise they can 'do it better', just before they get power and fleece the warmed over useful idiots... New York! New York!

 

[biblestudent78]

It has been my experience that when a person's "theory" runs out or over the cliff so to speak that wild unrealeate denials come from those using modern day disparagements because that is the extent of their eschatology = modern day political hate words. Bankrupt theology always goes there.

 

[Psalm1]

If I understand it right, replacement theology says that the natural Jews no longer have any special promise on earth from God. That's half true, half false.

1. There are no more special people according to the flesh, when repenting and being saved and justified by the Lord Jesus, whether Jew or Gentile.

2. There still remains the land promise God made to Abraham and his natural seed. The kingdom under David did just stretch from the river of Egypt to the river Euphrates. However, that was not the land that is still promised to Abraham personally.

Gen 15:7
And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.

Gen 17:8
And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Ezek 40+ shows the Lord's temple, Jewish priestly service, and land divided to them.

Therefore, while Israel after the flesh now has no special promise during the building of Jesus' church on earth, Abraham and his natural seed still have a special land promise to be fulfilled by the Lord Christ Himself.




Covenants are not called wives in Scripture. While Hagar in Gal 4 is an allegory of the old Covenant, she was not Abraham's wife.


I don't do anything, when you travel off into strangeville, such as Noah 'leaving' and 'returning' to the earth during the flood...



Rom 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Now is the time when Jews and Gentiles are grafted into the Israel of God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

When Jesus returns as Deliverer of Sion, then all the Israel of God and the Lamb shall be saved, resurrected, and raptured to meet Him in the air.


I don't struggle with false interpretation of prophecy, that dismisses the NT gospel, doctrine, and promises of the risen Lord Jesus Christ.

There is no more Jew nor Greek in the body of Christ and grafted Israel of God, which are all summarily raised in number 144,000. Who will stand with our Deliverer the Lamb of God Jesus Christ on Mt Sion in the heaven over earth.

The land promised to Abraham and his natural seed, will then be given when the Lord Himself stands on Mt Zion and is seated King in Jeruslaem.

Anyone believing that natural Jews now have a special relationship and access to the NT grace of God by Jesus Christ, are Judaizers preaching respect for the flesh.

Anyone believing any part of the OT still has power to save the natural Jews, are Judaizers preaching circumcision of the flesh.

Your post is a butcher job of what I am saying.

You simply can not grasp what I am presenting so you recklessly destroy every concept I am pointing out.
Do you ever honestly discuss the things of the bible?

QUOTE
""Anyone believing any part of the OT still has power to save the natural Jews, are Judaizers preaching circumcision of the flesh.""

....and you accuse me of "strangeville"?

You are miles and miles off of what I am saying.
I read your post and just shook my head at your lack of honesty.
I guess you can just live in your contentious world.
You can not be a happy person in that realm of misunderstanding.

Believe in your realm that the marriage that Jesus used over and over, is Jesus being confused.

Whew
SMH.

 

[Psalm1]

Double post

 

[Psalm1]

Welcome. It's always good to clarify things first.

Rapture is not a word translated from the Bible, but only an attempt at description for easy reference. Much the same as the Trinity, which is not translatable from Scripture, but is used for the Godhead of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Trinity wasn't coined until about the 3rd century.

As a matter of grammar, rapture is a passion word, that is applied to the church being caught up into the air to meet the Lord. In itself it's harmless, and I use it here simply to keep consistency in the thread about the rapture.

One point. The modern misconception about the rapture is the sudden 'disappearance' of the church from the earth. Not true.

The 'process' of the rapture is twofold: First the resurrection from the grave of all the dead saints in Christ. Along with all the saints remaining alive being changed immortal. That is the blessed event, that is in a moment and twinkling of the eye.

Secondly, is all the resurrected and changed saints caught away together into the air. That blessed event is not iinstantaneously, but rather an ascension like that of the risen Jesus Christ in Acts 1, and the resurrected two witnesses in Rev 11. That will be in sight of all people on earth.

The passionate 'rapture' therefore includes both the instant blessed first resurrection of the church, and also their blessed ascent into the air, for all eyes to see. (The third blessed part is the angels of God gathering all the risen saints together, to meet the Lord where He is in the air.)



This is not true, since end times 'eschatology' is the apostles' teaching of the last days in Scripture. They consistently confirmed they were in the last days:

Act 2:17
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Heb 1:1
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

1Jo 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Nowhere, does any apostle write that these last days have ended. And so, we see that we have all been in the last days, since the beginning of Jesus' own resurrection and church on earth.

The question therefore is, exactly what are the last days? All we know from Scripture is that the people of God are blessed with gifts of the Holy Ghost, pastors and teachers are sent to edify the saints, and are accompanied with false prophets, antichrists, scoffers, and perilous times.

Pretty much a renewed ongoing cycle from generation to generation, wherever the gospel is preached...

We can be assured of one thing, that the evil parts of these last days will end, when the Lord comes again to resurrect and catch away, aka rapture, His church unto Himself, and pour righteous wrath upon the inhabitants left on earth.


Once again, your conflating two different arguments here. Though 'rapture' is only a coined word for last days theology, the doctrine of the last days is by the apostles beginning in their own days...


I'm not altogether clear about dispensationalism. I believe it has to do with 'ways' of God dealing with man through history. For me, that's more of an observational teaching, based upon Bible history. Not necessarily teaching of Scripture.



Fundamentalism for me, is simply taking the Scriptures literal wherever possible, and living accordingly by faith in Jesus.


I believe this is where the false notion of the raptured 'disappearing' church was popularized. I haven't read it, nor seen the movies and shows, but that was a main point.

Says the man that claims Noah never left earth and returned.

Pssst....Noah was in fact OVER A MILE ABOVE THE EARTH.

BUT BUT BUT.......

You should celebrate any doctrine that originates outside the bible, since your camp celebrates the fact that your own doctrine has its origin in the flawed church fathers that evolved into the catholic church.

Don't ever accuse your opponent of having a doctrine invented by men when your own camp is FOUNDED off of limited men and their LIMITED viewpoint.

And you guys have that man made ingredient as your FOUNDATION.

 

[Psalm1]

"It's a gathering of the sealed people of God,.."

I'm seeing a distinct disconnect between what I say, and your response. Do you read what others say, or just pre-plan contradictions, that don't even contradict? Are you only happy when you're telling people they're wrong, even when they're saying the same thing?



I've given the Scriptural reasons why they can't all be Jews of the OT natural tribes of Israel.


No one has said otherwise. Now you seem to like disagreeing so much, that you disagree with something not ever said...

I really don't remember if you've agreed with anything I've said in all our exchanges. That's not a problem, unless disagreeing is just your personal M.O.

Let's try some basics: Jesus is the Christ. Jesus Christ is risen from the dead. Jesus Christ sits on the right hand of the majesty on high.

Agree or disagree?

Psalm1 said:
Rev 14:14 is main harvest Jews. NOT SEALED.
...but you need it changed.

Your response;
"I've given the Scriptural reasons why they can't all be Jews of the OT natural tribes of Israel."

....and yet the BIBLE says they are.

Why change the bible?

 

[Psalm1]

Are you saying Jesus' ascension was the rapture of the church? Or, that His ascension is the example of how His church will be raptured at His return?

If the latter, I completely agree.



I've noticed you seem confused at times. Now, I can't even tell if you're agreeing or disagreeing. You say 'nope', but I'm not sure nope to what. Try not to talk in personal code. If you have a lot to say, then just take it one point at a time to be clear for the average reader...

Quote
"Are you saying Jesus' ascension was the rapture of the church? Or, that His ascension is the example of how His church will be raptured at His return?
If the latter, I completely agree."

The latter.
But the SETTING and COMPONENTS....is "like manner".
Which is opposite your end times doctrine.
Completely opposite.
Vastly different.

 

[Psalm1]

Are you saying Jesus' ascension was the rapture of the church? Or, that His ascension is the example of how His church will be raptured at His return?

If the latter, I completely agree.



I've noticed you seem confused at times. Now, I can't even tell if you're agreeing or disagreeing. You say 'nope', but I'm not sure nope to what. Try not to talk in personal code. If you have a lot to say, then just take it one point at a time to be clear for the average reader...

The problem is not me personally.
I gave you plenty to defend my position.

Try and reread the simple points I make.

I am making you go against the bible, so you deflect into making up deficiencies.

Try and refute the bible verses, not me.

 

[Psalm1]

This is at the beginning of Lord's return, when He harvests/raptures the saints from the earth.

His great tribulation and wrath upon them left on earth follows:

Rev 14:18
And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

Rev 14:19
And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

You often appear confused in what you're saying. You claim to teach pre-trib rapture, and now seem to teach mid-trip rapture.

QUOTE
"You claim to teach pre-trib rapture, and now seem to teach mid-trip rapture"

Rev 14:14 is NOT the main harvest of 1 thes 4, mat 25, acts 1.

There are 3 gatherings
1) The rapture...main harvest of 1 thes 4.
2) The gathering of firstfruit Jews and main harvest Jews of rev 14.
3) The gathering of the saints in heaven by angels in mat 24 after the gt.

That midtrib gathering of rev 14;14 is neither the second coming or the pretrib rapture.
( that is why your doctrine MUST change it)

So Rev 14, in your doctrine, is mass confusion.
That is why your doctrine can not, or ever will unpack rev 14.

Game
Set
Match.


Rev 14. Is the nuke that forever destroys any hope of a postrib rapture.

 

[ATG]

Says the man that claims Noah never left earth and returned.

Pssst....Noah was in fact OVER A MILE ABOVE THE EARTH.

That's better.

When on the sea and in the air, it's normally called departing and returning to land...Leaving earth is usually reserved for the dead and astronauts.

 

[ATG]

Psalm1 said:
Rev 14:14 is main harvest Jews. NOT SEALED.

I see. So your point is that the 144,000 servants of God sealed in their foreheads, are not the 144,000 followers of the Lamb with the Father's name in their foreheads.

It's an interesting proposition, that I've never heard before. What Scripture shows that the 1444,000 in Rev 7 are not the 144,000 in Rev 14?

Your response;
"I've given the Scriptural reasons why they can't all be Jews of the OT natural tribes of Israel."

....and yet the BIBLE says they are.

Nonsequitur. You've said so, not the Bible. I've given Scripture to say otherwise.

If you want the Bible to say so, then you need to give Scripture saying so...It's pretty much an axiom of teaching the Bible, rather than just your own say so.

 

[ATG]

Quote
"Are you saying Jesus' ascension was the rapture of the church? Or, that His ascension is the example of how His church will be raptured at His return?
If the latter, I completely agree."

The latter.

Well, we do agree on something. Glad to hear it. It makes the argument worthwhile to at least understand one another.

But the SETTING and COMPONENTS....is "like manner".
Which is opposite your end times doctrine.
Completely opposite.

So you say. How so?

The only difference is that Jesus ascends in the sight of disciples, while the two witnesses and resurrected disciples ascend in sight of unbelievers. But they all ascend with clouds in the air.

Act 1:9
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Rev 11:12
And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

1Th 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.