P.S. ...and the punchline:
studier's Dave Miller earned his Ph.D. in - wait for it - Rhetoric and Public Address.
Acts 2:38 Comparison: Evangelical vs. Oneness / Baptismal-Regeneration View
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To be accurate and more complete, I recommended his free, online book re: Baptism because it covers verses being discussed on this thread and provides real citations to those whom he references and comments on, unlike some of the nonsense that went on in this thread. I'm also trained and capable of understanding and evaluating his conclusions and how he derives them through analysis of the Greek grammar and syntax.
To be clear, I neither know Mr. Miller or knew of him before I came across his research piece and I evaluated his work in the minimal scope I've clearly stated - just what he wrote in analyzing a few verses of Scripture. So, to be fair to Mr. Miller unlike the agenda-driven ad-hominem hit pieces that are being presented here in an effort to discredit the man who shows as I've shown why your teaching on Matt28 is incorrect, this is Dave Miller's bio and the link to the site I'm drawing from:
Dave Miller:
- Ph.D. Rhetoric and Public Address, Southern Illinois University
- M.Div., Harding School of Theology
- M.A.R. Homiletics, Harding School of Theology
- M.A. Speech Communication, Texas Tech University
- B.A. Speech and Bible, Lubbock Christian University
“The Silencing of God: The Dismantling of America’s Christian Heritage”
“A Trip Through the Bible”
“America’s Most Pressing Concern” (sequel to “The Silencing of God”)
“Can We Know That God Exists?”
“God & Government”
“Has the Bible Been Corrupted?”
“Islam, the Quran, and New Testament Christianity”
“Must the Church Change?”
“The End Times”
“Why People Suffer”
I've not read any of these nor have I promoted his book I did link to other than to say that I think he did a good job handling the verses I've mentioned and have been dealing with in this thread.
You still are unable to do or provide anything to deal with your error in explaining the language of Matt28. It's quite the thing watching how much effort and fallacy you'll put into diverting from that task.
Like I said, you're "scholarship" rests in corrupt Greek study tools - the dumb getting dumber.
Maybe you should stick with Rhetoric and Public Address?
Still nothing on Matt28?
Just hard work to fail in discrediting others who actually know how to read the Text so you can try to make it say whatever you want. Quite an agenda. Not unique, though. There are a few of you floating around the forum now.
Just hard work to fail in discrediting others who actually know how to read the Text so you can try to make it say whatever you want. Quite an agenda. Not unique, though. There are a few of you floating around the forum now.
Those with this strict Lutheran perspective have had 508 years of time to redefine, obscure and argue for that Catholic Priest's perspective. First, one must define anything other than Luther's 16th perspective on baptism as "the other." In Luther's mind (and none before him) one could not do anything "physical" to obey God. God was only interested in your mental perceptions and never your physical realities. They were irreverent. The fact that "preaching Jesus" always resulted in baptism is spun and spun till it is Lutherian irreverent. When Phillip preached Jesus, the result was baptism. When the Jews gathering for Pentecost asked "what shall we do to be saved? Peter answered with two answers, repent (now disputed invalid and there is no valid claim for the exclusive of be baptized as anything than the average person would perceive as a command from Apostles) and be baptized (now considered invalid). When Peter preached Jesus to the household of Cornelius, they immediately in the middle of the night were baptized (no considered invalid) When Jesus appeared to Paul he was told to go into Damascus and what he needed to do would be told to him. Paul was baptized (now considered invalid). Night Twister list other results of someone preaching Jesus and the result is a baptism of faith and obedience. Is the real issue that we do not want to have any actual physical reality associated with our Christianity. Just folks sitting in pews glad we are going to heaven and super glad all those outside are going to hell? We don't want "them" in our Churches, so we don't want the idea of having to put up with them in heaven either.
Those who reject baptism as an act of obedient faith also reject repentance as having nothing to do with salvation. Nobody has to repent! That mean actively engaging in conforming out lives to Jesus instead just our faith/grace only church. Paul told us that whatever you claim as your faith, without love is just noise. We probably won't be able to claim noise as a Christian attribute, but it is the common reality.
It has been my experience that the fervid defense of the anti-action part of Christianity where you can "make a decision" for Christ and/or accept Him into your heart for a guaranteed ticket heaven sitting in a lifelong pew is now "God's will." It is one cross Christianity. The only cross that counts is the cross on which Jesus was crucified and decidedly not the one He demands we take up and sacrifice ourselves on. How inconvenient! Our personal sacrifice has nothing to do with our salvation. We can reject all the demands, commands and examples in the New Testament because we have a monk who told us otherwise and we have had 508 yrs to perfect and defend him and make his statements equal to or more improved than those who followed the apostles teaching. Luther discounted Jame, Jude and Revelation because they would not fit his enlightened theology.
In my opinion, God has been attempting to unite His nature with human nature through His loving example of how to live and please him. Our theologies deny there is a "way to live" that God cares anything about. He only wants what the warden in the movie Cool Hand Luke told Luke. "You just got to get your mind right!" James the brother of Jesus and the leader of the Church in Jerusalem made it clear, if you can't see your faith by how you live, who you are and what you do for those in need, then it's not faith. It might be faith in faith or faith in religion but if it is faith without a difference, it is not faith.
So, it is not about Jesus as an example, but as a religion. Before you dump all of the intricately crafted theologies of Salvation by Grace alone and Faith Alone, read the entire 25th chapter of Matthew and then let's talk about how you live mean nothing to God, only what you claim to believe.
@biblestudent78
Thanks!
- In your post #1,646 you made no comment. A few of us have taken substantial issue with some of that post you quoted.
- I assume your #1,647 is your response to that post.
- I'm comfortable I understand most of what you wrote.
- Could you explain your last paragraph:
Thanks!
My concern is that 21st century Protestant and non-denominational christianity have abandoned any significant acceptance of Jesus as Lord. A great deal of time and words center around intricate definitions of theological debates and exclusive focus on Jesus as Savior. For many Christianity has 3 priorities and 1 cross. Our priorities are me, me, me and the only cross we accept of the cross of Jesus. The cross Jesus demands we take up disappears into euphemisms. We are highly expansive on every jot and tiddle of every aspect of "salvation" via a "proper" understanding of the New Testament corpus on this subject. Those ancient lines are a total focus on "righteous theology" extends back to 1517. These issues are still being debated and extensive analysis are written daily on these subjects, but the "weightier matters" go begging. We are like children who would rather debate than do.
Essentially, my contention is that by accepting Jesus as Lord, we should now be spending our time and resources focused on what we are called to do, to be and to become in delivering God's love to a world who are no longer interested in our extensive proof texts demonstrating our righteous religious theology. To the world we appear far more interested in the pursuit religion. We proclaim that Jesus is the answer to our prayers, but we refuse to be the answer to the prayers of those who need us to be their answer. We are interested in their salvation but not in the meeting their other needs. Thu they become just "objects" to be recruited. They are the targets of our theology.
In America each year 3,500-7,000 christian churches close their doors for good. Those attending any christian church regularly has dropped from almost 90% 50 yrs ago to about 62% today. The world sees 10 popular Christian pastors with a combined net worth of $1billion and wonder why Protestant and non-denominational churches have exported the care for the widows, orphans, the sick of mind and body, the depressed, addicted, broken, despondent and hungry to the care of the government. They hear our elevated words of "concern" for these people but if they can't be recruited to our theology then we have no interest in them as human beings. They see our churches are full of people of the same race, same income levels, same education levels, same politics, same dress and same commitment to 1hr/wk pew based religion and they intuitively know they do not belong.
We are vitally interested in being saved from hell but have no interest in saving people experiencing hell on earth. We have farmed that out to "the government." That is why I suggest we have crafted a religion of religion devoted to the "rightness" of our sect's unique distinctive brand, creeds and biblical traditions instead of following the example of Jesus life of loving service, healing, reconciling and inspiring people. People were attracted to Jesus's unique understanding that the love of God is for all people far away from God. We are vitally interested in saving souls, but not so much in the entire person. Jesus never saw people this way and we should not either.
If have been a non-denominational christian for 68 years and seldom miss church services but in all those years I have never heard a single sermon based on Matthew 25. I think that is because Jesus provides us with a judgement criteria that is counterfactual to what we believe. For us, a head nod to a pulpit prayer equates to salvation through the mystical experience of letting Jesus into your heart. Matthew 25 and 1st Corinthians 13 among many other scriptures makes our definition of guaranteed instant and eternal salvation through life-long pewology seem to be in conflict. Jesus condemned those whose religion was right but who had no heart for the people. We speak libraries full of sermons about saving souls, but are virtually silent about loving and serving the people God loves.
My concern is that 21st century Protestant and non-denominational christianity have abandoned any significant acceptance of Jesus as Lord. A great deal of time and words center around intricate definitions of theological debates and exclusive focus on Jesus as Savior. For many Christianity has 3 priorities and 1 cross. Our priorities are me, me, me and the only cross we accept of the cross of Jesus. The cross Jesus demands we take up disappears into euphemisms. We are highly expansive on every jot and tiddle of every aspect of "salvation" via a "proper" understanding of the New Testament corpus on this subject. Those ancient lines are a total focus on "righteous theology" extends back to 1517. These issues are still being debated and extensive analysis are written daily on these subjects, but the "weightier matters" go begging. We are like children who would rather debate than do what is asked of us.
Essentially, my contention is that by accepting Jesus as Lord, we should now be spending our time and resources focused on what we are called to do, to be and to become in delivering God's love to a world who are no longer interested in our extensive proof texts demonstrating our uniquely righteous religious theology. To the world we appear far more interested in the pursuit of religion. We proclaim that Jesus is the answer to our prayers, but we refuse to be the answer to the prayers of those who need us to be their answer. We are interested in their salvation but not in the meeting their "other" needs. They perceive that we use love as just a recruiting message. Often they are the targets of our theology. We rightly explain that the framework of our salvation is by faith in the Grace of God, but reject God's claim on our lives, our time, our money, our sacrifices and our quest to learn to love like Jesus. Paul cautions us about not depending on a loveless faith that essentially is just noise. Strangely, in our salvation formulas our rebirth into loving deeply, faithfully and sacrificially do not even make honorable mention. We're good with whatever passes for faith that is most easily achieved and convenient. Jesus brother made it clear that the validity of our faith is what you do, not in what you claim.
In America each year 3,500-7,000 christian churches close their doors for good. Those attending any christian church regularly has dropped from almost 90% 75 yrs ago to about 62% today. The world sees 10 popular Christian pastors with a combined net worth of $1billion. They see hundreds of multimillion dollar air conditioned concrete worship centers and wonder why Protestant and non-denominational churches have exported the care for the widows, orphans, the sick of mind and body, the depressed, addicted, broken, despondent and hungry to the care of the government. They hear our elevated words of "concern" for these people but if they can't be recruited to our theology then we have no interest in them as human beings. They see our churches are full of people of the same race, same income levels, same education levels, same politics, same dress and same commitment to 1hr/wk pew based religion and they intuitively know they do not belong.
We are vitally interested in being saved from hell but have no interest in saving people experiencing hell on earth. We have farmed that out to "the government." That is why I suggest we have crafted a religion of religion devoted to the "rightness" of our sect's unique distinctive brand, creeds and biblical traditions instead of following the example of Jesus life of loving service, healing, reconciling and inspiring people. People were attracted to Jesus's unique understanding that the love of God is for all people far away from God. He preferred the society of sinners over the self-righteous. We are vitally interested in saving souls, but not so much in the entire person. Jesus never saw people this way and we should not either.
If have been a non-denominational christian for 68 years and seldom miss church services but in all those years I have never heard a single sermon based on Matthew 25. I think that is because Jesus provides us with a judgement criteria that is counterfactual to what we believe. For us, a head nod to a pulpit prayer equates to salvation through the mystical experience of letting Jesus into your heart. Matthew 25 and 1st Corinthians 13 among many other scriptures makes our definition of guaranteed instant and eternal salvation through life-long pewology seem to be in conflict. Jesus condemned those whose religion was right but who had no heart for the people. We speak libraries full of sermons about saving souls, but are virtually silent about loving and serving whole people that God loves.
Essentially, my contention is that by accepting Jesus as Lord, we should now be spending our time and resources focused on what we are called to do, to be and to become in delivering God's love to a world who are no longer interested in our extensive proof texts demonstrating our uniquely righteous religious theology. To the world we appear far more interested in the pursuit of religion. We proclaim that Jesus is the answer to our prayers, but we refuse to be the answer to the prayers of those who need us to be their answer. We are interested in their salvation but not in the meeting their "other" needs. They perceive that we use love as just a recruiting message. Often they are the targets of our theology. We rightly explain that the framework of our salvation is by faith in the Grace of God, but reject God's claim on our lives, our time, our money, our sacrifices and our quest to learn to love like Jesus. Paul cautions us about not depending on a loveless faith that essentially is just noise. Strangely, in our salvation formulas our rebirth into loving deeply, faithfully and sacrificially do not even make honorable mention. We're good with whatever passes for faith that is most easily achieved and convenient. Jesus brother made it clear that the validity of our faith is what you do, not in what you claim.
In America each year 3,500-7,000 christian churches close their doors for good. Those attending any christian church regularly has dropped from almost 90% 75 yrs ago to about 62% today. The world sees 10 popular Christian pastors with a combined net worth of $1billion. They see hundreds of multimillion dollar air conditioned concrete worship centers and wonder why Protestant and non-denominational churches have exported the care for the widows, orphans, the sick of mind and body, the depressed, addicted, broken, despondent and hungry to the care of the government. They hear our elevated words of "concern" for these people but if they can't be recruited to our theology then we have no interest in them as human beings. They see our churches are full of people of the same race, same income levels, same education levels, same politics, same dress and same commitment to 1hr/wk pew based religion and they intuitively know they do not belong.
We are vitally interested in being saved from hell but have no interest in saving people experiencing hell on earth. We have farmed that out to "the government." That is why I suggest we have crafted a religion of religion devoted to the "rightness" of our sect's unique distinctive brand, creeds and biblical traditions instead of following the example of Jesus life of loving service, healing, reconciling and inspiring people. People were attracted to Jesus's unique understanding that the love of God is for all people far away from God. He preferred the society of sinners over the self-righteous. We are vitally interested in saving souls, but not so much in the entire person. Jesus never saw people this way and we should not either.
If have been a non-denominational christian for 68 years and seldom miss church services but in all those years I have never heard a single sermon based on Matthew 25. I think that is because Jesus provides us with a judgement criteria that is counterfactual to what we believe. For us, a head nod to a pulpit prayer equates to salvation through the mystical experience of letting Jesus into your heart. Matthew 25 and 1st Corinthians 13 among many other scriptures makes our definition of guaranteed instant and eternal salvation through life-long pewology seem to be in conflict. Jesus condemned those whose religion was right but who had no heart for the people. We speak libraries full of sermons about saving souls, but are virtually silent about loving and serving whole people that God loves.
Actually, an outward focus on the world is just as much a part of the problem as the things you describe here are. Christ's body is called to minister to and build up itself. Then those in the world who hunger and thirst for righteousness will see Christ in us and be drawn to him
I agree.
Look at how the NT talks about baptism being similar to circumcision:
Colossians 2:11-12
In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
@biblestudent78
Understood. We probably have a lot in common thinking about the condition of the church we could discuss.
My question is about this - what did you mean?
"So, it is not about Jesus as an example, but as a religion. Before you dump all of the intricately crafted theologies of Salvation by Grace alone and Faith Alone, read the entire 25th chapter of Matthew and then let's talk about how you live mean nothing to God, only what you claim to believe."
Understood. We probably have a lot in common thinking about the condition of the church we could discuss.
My question is about this - what did you mean?
"So, it is not about Jesus as an example, but as a religion. Before you dump all of the intricately crafted theologies of Salvation by Grace alone and Faith Alone, read the entire 25th chapter of Matthew and then let's talk about how you live mean nothing to God, only what you claim to believe."
- Dump theological traditions on you?
- Not dump as in throw out?
We tend to be quick to "testify" and to overwhelm potentially interested people with our theological traditions long before we demonstrate the love of God for them. We are full of proof texts to be targeted on that person. It has been my experience in life, that people do not, and probably should not, care about what you say until they know how much you care about them personally. The reference to the word "dump" is hyperbole for what I have experienced when church folks feel they have a potential convert in their sights. As noted by Paul and Jesus to name a few, if we are not acting in a kind of love that is perceived as love by those we talk to about God and Jesus we are misrepresenting God. Where we want to make faith the ending place and the goal of our testimony, if love does not come across then we are selling our religion and as Paul calls it "noise." Our communications with the "lost" must be perceived as an outreach from a loving God and His Loving Son or we are just religious salespeople. For decades, I was the former but I have come to be the latter as I age and appreciate that the Gospel's most fertile soil is in the carnage of human experience and grief. Those who cannot perceive our love will never grasp the love God has for them. In my opinion, we are to be ambassadors of love long before we are are given the privilege of bringing the Gospel of love.
Outreach is certainly part of the focus, but not the main focus. Everyone in the US has heard about Jesus, but what they rarely see is Jesus in Christians.
Wanted to be sure. Flows with the focus of your post. Thanks.
Since you just started, as you venture around here and experience very little love being expressed, it's probably best to keep in mind most are "believers" at various levels of growth, and the main issue seems most always to be doctrinal vs. evangelism to the unbeliever who will not see much if any love among disciples around here.
The UPC church made #10 on list of the top ten cults in America on ChristiAnanswers.Net
10. United Pentecostal Church (UPC).
A highly controlling, legalistic group that was formed in 1945. This group denies the Trinity and teaches that in order to be saved one must be baptized in the name of Jesus only.
What are the top ten cults in the U.S.? - ChristianAnswers.Net
Sounds like they have a chip on their shoulder for the UPC. It's pretty ridiculous IMO to put a sect that believes Jesus is God and being baptized in Jesus' name on the same list with Islam, Jehovah's Witness, Scientology, Mormonism, etc.