Good then we're in agreement, all Jews aren't culpable for Christs death. No need for further discussion.
Israel and the present conflict
- Thread starter Gideon300
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Good then we're in agreement, all Jews aren't culpable for Christs death. No need for further discussion.
Yes, from the historical perspective it is not as simple as "it was never a nation" and there is a lot that is not well known unless one takes the time to read the primary source documents.
This indicates a lack of understanding regrading how "nation states" come into existence.
But ultimately it seems to me the assertion that Palestine was never a nation is really at heart a de-humanizing statement.
I've asked for people who keep parroting "Replacement Theology" to show me where the replacement is taking place in the picture below:
For scriptural reference:
Genesis 12:3 I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
Genesis 22:15-18 "Then the Angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time out of heaven, 16 and said: “By Myself I have sworn, says the LORD, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son— 17 blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your seed as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. 18 In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”
So then Paul gave us revelation:
Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
2 Corinthians 5:16 "Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new."
And Paul clarifies to Whom the promises were given:
Galatians 3:16 "Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ."
In Deuteronomy, the words used to describe the Israelites is used for the Gentile believers by Peter:
Deuteronomy 14:1,2 To the Jews God said: "Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead. 2For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth."
Peter, writing to Gentile believers, revealed: "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people..."
More in a follow-up post...
For scriptural reference:
Genesis 12:3 I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
Genesis 22:15-18 "Then the Angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time out of heaven, 16 and said: “By Myself I have sworn, says the LORD, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son— 17 blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your seed as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. 18 In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”
So then Paul gave us revelation:
Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
2 Corinthians 5:16 "Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new."
And Paul clarifies to Whom the promises were given:
Galatians 3:16 "Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ."
In Deuteronomy, the words used to describe the Israelites is used for the Gentile believers by Peter:
Deuteronomy 14:1,2 To the Jews God said: "Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead. 2For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth."
Peter, writing to Gentile believers, revealed: "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people..."
More in a follow-up post...
J
John1335
Guest
We do not believe in replacement, but fulfillment.
Brother Steve Gregg, while I do not agree with all of his conclusions, lays out the best scriptural case for our position that I have found thus far.
I'll leave this here for your prayerful consideration.
Well, I can save you a lot of bother on my part, I never said we aren't one in Christ.
Here's a good example of Replacement Theology that popped up.
"Replacement theology, or supersessionism, teaches that the Christian church has replaced the Jewish people as God's chosen people and that the promises made to Israel in the Old Testament have been fulfilled in the church. This doctrine asserts that God's covenant with Israel is no longer valid, and that a new covenant was established through Jesus Christ for Christians alone. As a result, this view concludes that there are no longer specific future plans for the nation of Israel, and that Old Testament prophecies were redirected to the church.
And yet the truth is Palestine was never a nation. And that is why this issue is such a difficult one because people are speaking from emotion rather than fact. There has never been a Palestinian nation, facts matter and that is a fact of history that you cannot prove wrong.
J
John1335
Guest
Its a two hour presentation. And you gave up before it even began. That does not exhibit a willingness to truly hear from God on these matters.
Its not the Berean way, and its completely disingenuous.
The scriptures do not teach what you believe, but you refuse to hear anything the scriptures say that goes against your long held bias and misinterpretations.
Neither will you examine the root of what you yourself have been taught, its origins or the men responsible for deceiving you, they were not Godly men.
I wonder what is worse: speaking from emotion or telling people they don't exist?
If the people in the region want to call it "Palestine" what is the greater law that forbids it?
You're missing the part where the promises given to Abraham were given to all in Christ.
J
John1335
Guest
And the fact that at the time the promise was given, Abraham was neither an Israelite or Jewish. Is he even now, either of those things? An Israelite most certainly in the fulfilled spiritual sense, but definitely not a Jew.
Yeah, he was a Chaldean.
I used to be in the "The Jews are God's chosen people" camp (in high school) until I researched it for myself. Instead of replacement (as some like to parrot) I saw the Living God casting a wider net. Believing that "God so loved the world" is central to the Gospel of the Kingdom.
J
John1335
Guest
Israel’s Rejection and God’s Purpose
6But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
Jesus Defends His Self-Witness
13The Pharisees therefore said to Him, “You bear witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true.”
14Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going. 15You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. 16And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me. 17It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. 18I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me.”
19Then they said to Him, “Where is Your Father?”
Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also.”
20These words Jesus spoke in the treasury, as He taught in the temple; and no one laid hands on Him, for His hour had not yet come.
21Then Jesus said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin. Where I go you cannot come.”
6But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
Jesus Defends His Self-Witness
13The Pharisees therefore said to Him, “You bear witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true.”
14Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going. 15You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. 16And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me. 17It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. 18I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me.”
19Then they said to Him, “Where is Your Father?”
Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also.”
20These words Jesus spoke in the treasury, as He taught in the temple; and no one laid hands on Him, for His hour had not yet come.
21Then Jesus said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin. Where I go you cannot come.”
22So the Jews said, “Will He kill Himself, because He says, ‘Where I go you cannot come’?”
23And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
25Then they said to Him, “Who are You?”
And Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning. 26I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I heard from Him.”
27They did not understand that He spoke to them of the Father.
28Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things. 29And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him.” 30As He spoke these words, many believed in Him.
The Truth Shall Make You Free
31Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
33They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”
34Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.
Abraham’s Seed and Satan’s
37“I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”
39They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”
Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41You do the deeds of your father.”
Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”
42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”
Before Abraham Was, I AM
48Then the Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?”
49Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. 50And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges. 51Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.”
52Then the Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’ 53Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be?”
54Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. 55Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
57Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
59Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
23And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
25Then they said to Him, “Who are You?”
And Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning. 26I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I heard from Him.”
27They did not understand that He spoke to them of the Father.
28Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things. 29And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him.” 30As He spoke these words, many believed in Him.
The Truth Shall Make You Free
31Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
33They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”
34Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.
Abraham’s Seed and Satan’s
37“I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”
39They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”
Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41You do the deeds of your father.”
Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”
42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”
Before Abraham Was, I AM
48Then the Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?”
49Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. 50And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges. 51Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.”
52Then the Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’ 53Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be?”
54Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. 55Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
57Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
59Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
J
John1335
Guest
It is as simple as it never was a nation. That is historical facts, yes, those darn facts.
Lol no it doesn't. You're wrong. History says you're wrong.
Same question to you, how many genders are there??