Who Killed Jesus?
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He chose to die for our Sins. He made Himself the blood sacrifice. If He hadn't we'd still be choking out chickens and wrestling goats to use their blood to cover our Sins. Don't know why autocorrect is giving a capital S to sins but it oddly is.
Judaism in the 1st century accepted three ways to atone for sin. The death of a righteous person was one and is supported in the New Testament, possibly by way of 4th Maccabees, a Jewish source written before most, if not all. of Paul's writings, which are the earliest Christian references to Jesus's death as atonement. The scapegoat was another and is also referenced in the New Testament, also by Paul as well as Mark. The third, and the only one I am not yet certain being referenced in the New Testament is by prayer.
We have not yet reached the punchline sermon of this thread, and I do not want to be guilty of making the thread boring by giving the "correct" answer.
Correctness that compromises the full truth is sickness to the soul, and destroys all fun.
More than 2 things can be true at the same time, and I have so far only given the answer that is most relevant to myself.
Jesus may have laid His life down willingly, but the fact remains that the murder of an innocent man has occurs under the false charge of blasphemy.
That means that with the good news of the Gospel there is also a bad news of condemnation for this murder.
All that do not believe are condemned already, because they also accuse Jesus of blasphemy for his claim in Mathew 26:64.
So, if the punchline sermon is going to be something on the lines of: "We killed Christ, therefore the un-believing jews are not guilty"
I want to go on record as having said that this is BS (ox dung if you use the KJV).
Of course I don't know what the punchline will be.
This is just sort of an insurance policy.
J
John1335
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“Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”
John 10
John 10
Amen to that.
Highlighting the word chose here, if He chose then could He have chosen not to die in our stead? which would then be meaning we are all condemned by sin to the refuse heap to be burnt up, and rightfully so I might add. I guess what Im saying is, would it not be false to say Adam sinned therefore God was obligated to fix things for us? Not saying people mean that, its just when people say our sins killed Jesus, one could interpret it that abstractly.
I dont trust AI there is probably an ulterior reason it is making more of your sin than it ought toIf He hadn't we'd still be choking out chickens and wrestling goats to use their blood to cover our Sins. Don't know why autocorrect is giving a capital S to sins but it oddly is.
Of course the sacrifices still left men in a condemned state, Heb 10:4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
I have yet to hear once about how the Romans who actually nailed Jesus to the Cross and whipped Him are culpable for the death of Jesus.
The Romans actually crucified Him (Matthew 27:27–37).
The religious leaders of Israel were responsible for Jesus’ death. Matthew 26:3–4 "
3 Then the chief priests and the elders of the people assembled in the palace of the high priest, whose name was Caiaphas, 4 and they schemed to arrest Jesus secretly and kill him.
The "crowd" killed Jesus. Again the religious leaders fearing for their positions wanted Jesus dead.
19 While Pilate was sitting on the judge’s seat, his wife sent him this message: “Don’t have anything to do with that innocent man, for I have suffered a great deal today in a dream because of him.”
20 But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowd to ask for Barabbas and to have Jesus executed.
21 “Which of the two do you want me to release to you?” asked the governor.
“Barabbas,” they answered.
22 “What shall I do, then, with Jesus who is called the Messiah?” Pilate asked.
They all answered, “Crucify him!”
We know the last two answers are that our Sins held Him to the Cross and Jesus gave up His life willingly.
Jesus died for our sins and the sins of the whole world.
Nobody gets exonerated unless forgiven.
Can one race of people be an exception?
You sound like you don't want the Jews to be saved.
You might know the accounts in the gospels to be true about the crowds and the chief priest and his companions, but having done a deep dive into ignored evidence, I do not know that. In fact, I know that the gospels tell us that a Joseph who was a high-ranking member of the Sanhedrin was a follower of Jesus, and I know that the only permanent member of the Sanhedrin, thus its only high-ranking member, was also named Joseph. One was Joseph Caiaphas, with no listed hometown just a family surname, and the other was Joseph of Arimathea, with no listed family surname.
I am a little confused, I have read There rose a lambs posts and there is nothing in them that says the Jews are guiltless in fact I ascertained the opposite from his posts that they are culpable in like manner as anyone else, not sure what Im missing?
To me Salvation has always and will always be an individual calling.
Ok. I might have been jumping the gun there.
I anticipated that spiel based on things the person has said in other threads.
Jesus was born for the express purpose of dying so to take the sins of the world upon himself and redeem sinners.
Si,if we take the plan of God in order so to answer the OP question we have as follows:
God,who was Jesus.
Judas,who served God's plan,as Jesus revealed when Jesus told Judas to go and do what he must do. Which was to point Him out to the Temple Guard who would later arrest him in the garden if Gethsemane.
And this after the Sanhedrin judged Jesus guilty of Blasphemy. Which was an offense worthy of His death.
And finally,Romes executioners.
Because Pilate washed his hands of the affair. Which meant the laws of Rkmd itself did not judge Jesus worthy of execution. Because Pilate refused to judge Him if breaking their laws since he did not do so.
Which leaves the Jews of the time since the crowd present were Jews who demanded Jesus be crucified. And Barabbas, a Zealot and revolutionary who opposed Roman rule,be freed on the eve of Passover, as was a tradition of mercy Rome afforded at that time. One Jewish prisoner would be freed on Passover eve.
Of course the other answer in that order is ourselves. Being we ,people,were sinners at the time of Jesus. But that was because God made it so.
Many were responsible for the death of Jesus. However,it is dishonest for anyone to insist the Jews in 1st century Jerusalem were not party to His execution.
It is also dishonest to ignore the fact they invoked a curse upon themselves for having done so,given they were killing the Messiah of prophecy.
Matthew 27 Version:HCSB
Jesus Handed Over to Pilate
1When daybreak came, all the chief priests and the elders of the people plotted against Jesus to put Him to death. 2After tying Him up, they led Him away and handed Him over to Pilate, the governor.
Judas Hangs Himself
3Then Judas, His betrayer, seeing that He had been condemned, was full of remorse and returned the 30 pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders. 4“I have sinned by betraying innocent blood,” he said.
“What’s that to us? ” they said. “See to it yourself! ”
5So he threw the silver into the sanctuary and departed. Then he went and hanged himself.
6The chief priests took the silver and said, “It’s not lawful to put it into the temple treasury, since it is blood money.” 7So they conferred together and bought the potter’s field with it as a burial place for foreigners. 8Therefore that field has been called “Blood Field” to this day. 9Then what was spoken through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled:
They took the 30 pieces of silver, the price of Him whose price was set by the Israelites, 10and they gave them for the potter’s field, as the Lord directed me.
Jesus Faces the Governor
11 Now Jesus stood before the governor. “Are You the King of the Jews? ” the governor asked Him.
Jesus answered, “You have said it.” 12And while He was being accused by the chief priests and elders, He didn’t answer.
13Then Pilate said to Him, “Don’t You hear how much they are testifying against You? ” 14But He didn’t answer him on even one charge, so that the governor was greatly amazed.
Jesus or Barabbas
15At the festival the governor’s custom was to release to the crowd a prisoner they wanted. 16At that time they had a notorious prisoner called Barabbas. 17So when they had gathered together, Pilate said to them, “Who is it you want me to release for you — Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Messiah? ” 18For he knew they had handed Him over because of envy.
19While he was sitting on the judge’s bench, his wife sent word to him, “Have nothing to do with that righteous man, for today I’ve suffered terribly in a dream because of Him! ”
20The chief priests and the elders, however, persuaded the crowds to ask for Barabbas and to execute Jesus. 21The governor asked them, “Which of the two do you want me to release for you? ”
“Barabbas! ” they answered.
22Pilate asked them, “What should I do then with Jesus, who is called Messiah? ”
They all answered, “Crucify Him! ”
23Then he said, “Why? What has He done wrong? ”
But they kept shouting, “Crucify Him! ” all the more.
24When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that a riot was starting instead, he took some water, washed his hands in front of the crowd, and said, “I am innocent of this man’s blood. See to it yourselves! ”
25All the people answered, “His blood be on us and on our children! ” 26Then he released Barabbas to them. But after having Jesus flogged, he handed Him over to be crucified.
And after this, the history of the Jews shows they are indeed reaping what they sewed.
But remember, the gospels as we have them today, were written/edited AFTER Rome won the 1st Jewish War and gained absolute censorship over anything they considered related to the war. During that war, two supposedly distinct groups suffered the exact same unusual punishments, the Jews and the Christians, just as if the Romans felt the two were acting together. Now in the aftermath, when Christians want to get along with the Romans, do you blame the Romans for crucifying Jesus, or do you officially turn on your former allies, and conceal that they were allies?
By the way, are you aware that in the "long" version of Acts, Pilate became a believer? Or that according to some accounts, Tiberius wanted Christianity to be a formally recognized, acceptable religion?
To know what is true BY BIBLICAL STANSARDS, we need to be able to question the eyewitnesses directly. Written accounts do not qualify as humans can write things for many reasons, including to conceal the truth. I read the New Testament we have today with an eye towards what does not fit, not with the intention to make everything fit. When I do this, many known problem passages and early Christian church events make sense, including why did Nero persecute the church the way he did and why were the Christians and Jews subject to the same punishments in the 1st Jewish war, punishments that were unusual? Now if you can easily answer those two questions there are several other ones that are also problematic that I find answerable with consistent connected answers. What I do not trust is what tradition tells us to believe.
I haven't read the whole thread so if someone already said this....
Jesus gave up His life.
He said 'It is finished' and gave up His life. Does that mean no one actually killed Him? Perhaps. Maybe, because he was/is deity no one could actually kill Him? He had to 'decide' to die. I can't answer that but of course He died being sent to die for all of us so that we could be restored to fellowship with God.
Jesus gave up His life.
He said 'It is finished' and gave up His life. Does that mean no one actually killed Him? Perhaps. Maybe, because he was/is deity no one could actually kill Him? He had to 'decide' to die. I can't answer that but of course He died being sent to die for all of us so that we could be restored to fellowship with God.
You have doubt it seems about the NT text, Rewriter.
I am inclined to think God has an interest in the preservation of it ( Mathew 24:35).
In 70AD some of Jesus' disciples were still alive and not all of the books of the NT text were yet written.
The Romans may have had power to destroy Jerusalem, but that does not give them control over the copying and distribution of those books, fast spreading over the world with great energy.
Neither does it give them power over God, zealous for His own Word.
I agree that not all the books of the NT were written by 70 CE. Luke/Acts was clearly not yet written. 1 John was likely not written. The Pastoral Epistles may or may not have been written. Mark, John and Revelation were likely EDITTED after this date, the evidence on those three is all internal. The Romans did not write the books, but they did have the power to destroy any copies they found and kill those who had the copies, as well as any close associates, as well as the authors if they did not approve of what was said. Now then, would you have liked to write or possess an unapproved version, or would you want a version that the Romans found acceptable? Note this does not say anything about what was verbally shared within the known Christian community, a community that used the sign of the fish to identify each other.
We can agree, hell froze over maybe. I went to an exhibit several years ago. Here it is "Ink & Blood: Dead Sea Scrolls to Gutenberg includes authentic Dead Sea Scrolls, the origins of written language and a working life-size reproduction of the most significant invention of the last millennium, Gutenberg’s Printing Press with moveable type. Totaling more than 100 artifacts, the collection includes 5,000-year-old clay tablets, Hebrew Torahs, ancient Greek texts, Medieval Latin manuscripts, original pages from Gutenberg’s Bible, and rare English printed Bibles."
It was something amazing to see in person, especially the Dead Sea scrolls. There wasn't enough time to read everything but it was still impressive. The only other thing I have seen that impressive is the Ark in KY.