The Ten Commandments are the Covenant, did you know?

[pinebeach]

While their may be some disagreement, the major doctrines of scripture are as follows;

The Authority and Inspiration of Scripture

The Trinity

The Deity of Christ

Creation by God’s Hand

The Nature of Sin and the Fall

Salvation through Christ Alone ( assuming that includes the death and resurrection of Christ)

Justification by Faith

The Role of the Holy Spirit

Sanctification and Growth

The Return of Christ and Eternal Hope

The above should be agreed upon in order to fall under the belief(s) of Christianity. There are other doctrines that might be considered major and certainly many more that are 'minor' .

 

[Inquisitor]

So how do you explain
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

If the law was replaced why are the 10 commandments being quoted by Paul?

Simple explanation.

Was Paul a Jew and was Paul a circumcised member of the former covenant?

Was Paul explaining to both the Jews and Gentiles in Rome the following paradox?

If Israel were the chosen nation how did they become the enemies of Jesus Christ?

Romans 11:28
From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake.

So how did Israel fall, fail, not attain the righteousness that they were pursuing, and become the
very enemies of Jesus Christ.

Romans 9:30
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness,
even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not
arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works.
They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

Israel rejected and crucified their own messiah while pursuing a legalism based on the law.
In order to sanctify themselves before God through their obedience to the book of the law.

The law is holy, just, and good, obey it and you are righteous?

But Paul used the law to demonstrate that the law kills.

Romans 7:8-9
But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for
apart from the Law sin is dead. I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came,
sin became alive and I died.

How is something that is good and holy kill Saul?

Because Saul was sinful and the law fulfilled the purpose it was designed for.

Once the Master arrived Paul was then a servant of the Master and not subject
to the condemnation of the law anymore.

 

[vassal]

You seem to be focused on only a tiny bit of the Covenant.

There are 613 commandments in the Old Testament (also known as the Torah) that comprised the Covenant. These are referred to as mitzvot and are a combination of both positive and negative commands. The 613 mitzvot are a compilation of the laws and rules found in the first five books of the Old Testament: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. They are divided into 365 negative commandments (prohibitions) and 248 positive commandments (actions to take).

God took these laws deadly seriously. At one point a servant reached out to steady the Ark of the Covenant and God killed him immediately.

Onan: Displeased the Lord and was put to death for refusing to have a child with his deceased brother's widow and for "spilling his seed on the ground."

Nadab and Abihu were two sons of Aaron, the high priest, offered "strange fire" to the Lord, which was not commanded by God. Fire came from the Lord and consumed them, resulting in their immediate death.

A man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day, a direct violation of the commandment that mandated rest and prohibited work on the seventh day. As instructed by God, the entire community took him outside the camp and stoned him to death (Numbers 15:32-36).

After the Israelites made and worshipped the golden calf, God commanded the Levites to kill the idolaters throughout the camp, resulting in thousands of deaths, as described in Exodus 32:25-33:6.

Korah, Dathan, and Abiram: These men, along with their followers, rebelled against the authority of Moses and Aaron, defying the established leadership structure. As punishment, "the ground under them split apart... and the earth swallowed them whole... they went down alive into the realm of the dead" (Numbers 16:31-33).

After the battle of Jericho, God commanded the Israelites not to take any devoted items from the city. Achan secretly took some silver, gold, and a valuable cloak and hid them in his tent. As a result, the Israelites suffered defeat in a subsequent battle, and Achan's sin was discovered. He and his family were stoned to death and their belongings burned (Joshua 7:1-26)

It seems to me to be very dangerous to limit what God demanded. 10 commandments which are contained in two lists that do not match and we have "obeyed" the Covenant? God killed people who violated his Covenant using a vastly wider scope than whichever version of the "10 Commandments" you chose. The Ten Commandments appear as two different lists in the Old Testament books of Exodus 20:1–17 and Deuteronomy 5:6–21. The variations mostly concern the details and reasons given for the Sabbath day and the commandment regarding coveting

Jewish and Protestant traditions typically count "no other gods" and "no idols" as separate commandments. Catholic and Lutheran traditions combine them and split the commandment about "coveting" into two.

read Acts 15 and know that the ten commandments are the covenant not the rest of the law of Moses today.

 

[vassal]

Hello vassal.

Please read the following.

Matthew 5:17-19
Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall
pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these
commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;
but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

What does the clause "until all is accomplished" mean?

What does the sentence "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches
others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven" mean exactly?

Jesus speaks clearly in Matthew 5:17 to 19. He says He did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. He came to fulfill them. He explains that nothing in the Law will pass away until two things happen: heaven and earth pass away, and all is accomplished.
Heaven and earth have not passed away. Jesus shows in many places that God’s commandments remain the way we know what sin is. He says in Matthew 19:17, “If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” He also says in John 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” These verses make it clear that the commandments are still the measure of obedience.

Now, the words “until all is accomplished.” We must let Jesus explain this with His own voice. Jesus speaks of all being accomplished when God’s final plan is done, not during His short earthly ministry. He says at the end of time the angels will gather the righteous and remove the lawless from His kingdom in Matthew 13:40 to 43. He also says in Matthew 24:35 that heaven and earth will pass away, but His words will not pass away. So “all is accomplished” points to the completion of God’s plan at the end, when heaven and earth are made new.

Jesus did not say the commandments become weak when He fulfills prophecy. He said they remain until heaven and earth pass away. Since heaven and earth still remain, the commandments still stand.

Now the second question. Jesus says, “Whoever annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven.” This means that anyone who breaks even the smallest commandment, and teaches other people to break it too, stands in a shameful place before God. Jesus shows that breaking God’s commandments is choosing sin, and sin brings death. He says in Matthew 7:23 that He will say to the lawless, “I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.”

So Jesus warns us strongly that those who break the commandments and tell others to break them fall under His judgment. Those who keep them and teach them are honoured by God. Jesus ends this teaching by saying in Matthew 5:20 that our righteousness must exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees. This means real obedience from the heart, not human tradition.

Clearly, Jesus did not erase the commandments. He kept them, taught them, and told us to keep them until the end of the world. Anyone who teaches others to ignore even the smallest command goes against His clear instructions. it is important to realize God Himself wrote these ten commandments for us and called them the Covenant, they are part of a whole and cannot be separated and neither can we pick and choose the ones we want to keep. God himself tells us clearly to keep them all. It is not a suggestion it is COMMAND>

 

[vassal]

I said yesterday I would write more about the covenant of blood that constitutes the New Covenant (through the blood of Christ) but this is the mainstay of salvation and as such, deserves its own thread so I'm going to create a new thread rather than have it get lost in this impossible miasma of misapplication and misunderstanding of the 10 commandments. The attempts to ignore what the actual covenant is (through Christ) have become an effectual cover up for some here so I'll bring it out of the darkness and into the light.

looking forward to read it

 

[memberofthebride]

2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills,
but the Spirit gives life.

We are servants of a new covenant now and not circumcised members of a former covenant.

Are you a servant of the new covenant?

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control;
against such things there is no law.

Your under the grace of Jesus Christ and not under the letter of the law.

Romans 5:5
And hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through
the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

What was the law written on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33)?

my comment,

i am no longer "under" the condemnation of the Law, no longer UNDER the penalty of death, but I am still held accountable to obey the Law.

Jesus Christ died instead of me, for my sins, the penalty of death for my sins were paid in full when I was baptized ,, but I still must obey the Law which I can not do on my own, I still have human nature, I am weak. when I sin and then repent, my sins are paid for by His death. there is no way around the penalty of death for sin, if there were, then Christ did not need to die.

1 John 3: 4 Sin is the transgression of the Torah/law

Jeremiah 31: 33, the word "Law" in Hebrew is Torah. Torah law must become our nature i.e. divine Nature. the Torah reveals the nature and mind of God.

the process of salvation normally takes a life time, I was baptized in 1969, I am not the same person as I was when I was Called, Thank God.

I view this doctrine of grace as nothing more than a "get out of jail for free" card. I reject "unconditional Love", there are conditions.
Why do you suppose Christ has the "Lake of Fire",

let Christ explain why.

Luke 19

26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.

27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

I would guess, Jesus Christ does not love "unconditionally", those that refuse to obey will never be in the Family of God the Father.

 

[TMS]

Jewish and Protestant traditions typically count "no other gods" and "no idols" as separate commandments. Catholic and Lutheran traditions combine them and split the commandment about "coveting" into two.

From my understanding
The two copies of the law in Deu and Exo are much the same.. very similar.

The Catholic church wanted to have graven images so they removed the 2nd commandment and divided the 10th so there was still 10.

 

[TMS]

You don't need the law when you have the Holy Spirit and the fruit therein.

When the holy Spirit is living in you you perfectly obey the law and are not guilty of transgressing it because the Holy Spirit is perfectly obedient to it.

That's why we are not under the condemnation of the law when the Spirit is in us.

 

[TMS]

The Gentiles were never in covenant with God to obey the Torah.

Israel only was in covenant with God to obey the prophets and the law.

Did Jesus fulfill the prophets?

Did Jesus fulfill the law?

Well yes, of course Jesus fulfilled all things.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

 

[TMS]

Yes, God loves us, BUT we are not worthy. Worthy means this:

If you want to believe that you have not been made worthy by Jesus,
Well I feel sorry for you..

 

[TMS]

2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, ....
What was the law written on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33)?

The only laws that Jeremiah could have been talking about are the Torah..

The civil laws don't work today because Israel would need to have political rule of the whole world.
The Health laws are good but I don't think they were the laws referred to.
The cerimonial and laws around the yearly feasts are not needed today because they all pointed to the ministry of Jesus on Earth and in Heaven..
But the moral laws of love are what defines sin and sin seperates us from God.

The 10 commandments. Which are God's laws.. which are different from Moses laws..

Dan 9:11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

Notice talking to God... thy law....
Then the law of Moses.

The law is the moral law of 10 commandments which is summed up in the 2 laws of love.

To love God is to keep the first 4 and to love thy neighbour is to keep the last 6.

This is the law to be written on our hearts.. they apply in both this world and heaven.. our hearts or character is what we take to heaven...

 

[biblestudent78]

read Acts 15 and know that the ten commandments are the covenant not the rest of the law of Moses today.

I know it well. Consider Jesus stated that his followers' righteousness must "surpass that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law" to enter the kingdom of heaven, as found in Matthew 5:20. He did not say this to advocate for a higher level of legalistic obedience but rather a more profound, inner righteousness rooted in the spirit of the law, not just the letter. It meant keeping the law in your actions and in your heart. Even the early Christian Church required that gentile converts were still subject to ceremonial Jewish laws. No eating strangled meat or meat with blood in it. No eating of meat offered to idols. No sexual immorality. These were dietary and thus Jewish ceremonial laws that Gentiles were required to obey. In Matthew 19:3-12 Jesus demands that the Jewish laws on marriage be followed more perfectly. In Matthew 19:16-22 Jesus tell a person that to go to heaven you must obey the law. The young man said he had been faithful to the law his entire life. Jesus asked one more thing of him - which was an extension of the law - to sell all and give it to the poor..

So I don't think that the simple answer that the only part of the Hebrew law we need to keep is the 10 commandments without incorporating what Jesus said.

 

[TMS]

Romans 9:30
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness,
even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not
arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works.
They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not
arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works.

I teach the same as Paul is... you are not.

WHY did Israel fail? Because they did not pursue the law by faith...

They tried to do it by works.

You remove the whole law...

But the difference isn't about keeping the law but HOW WE KEEP IT.

I have not said that the law will save or justify us before God

The law is to be kept by faith not to earn salvation.

The law is to be written on the heart.

Christ did not make the law void. No we are to keep it by faith..

Righteousness is perfect obedience to the law and Christ is our righteousness.
BY FAITH in Christ we are righteous.
He kept the law perfectly and gives us the perfect righteousness needed for salvation.

But do we make the law void? Do we continue to sin? Do transgress the law willingly because of grace...

No .
we keep the law by faith. By faith we love to obey the law.
God gave this perfect law. And it is our delight to obey God.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

[Inquisitor]

I know it well. Consider Jesus stated that his followers' righteousness must "surpass that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law" to enter the kingdom of heaven, as found in Matthew 5:20. He did not say this to advocate for a higher level of legalistic obedience but rather a more profound, inner righteousness rooted in the spirit of the law, not just the letter. It meant keeping the law in your actions and in your heart. Even the early Christian Church required that gentile converts were still subject to ceremonial Jewish laws. No eating strangled meat or meat with blood in it. No eating of meat offered to idols. No sexual immorality. These were dietary and thus Jewish ceremonial laws that Gentiles were required to obey. In Matthew 19:3-12 Jesus demands that the Jewish laws on marriage be followed more perfectly. In Matthew 19:16-22 Jesus tell a person that to go to heaven you must obey the law. The young man said he had been faithful to the law his entire life. Jesus asked one more thing of him - which was an extension of the law - to sell all and give it to the poor..

So I don't think that the simple answer that the only part of the Hebrew law we need to keep is the 10 commandments without incorporating what Jesus said.

One of the more confused replies I have seen.

Acts 15, is not placing the Gentiles under the law just the opposite.

The Gentiles were given a few rules so that they did upset the Jews so much.

Acts 15, is strongly stating that Gentiles are not to be circumcised nor are they
bound by the law.

 

[biblestudent78]

but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not
arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works.

I teach the same as Paul is... you are not.

WHY did Israel fail? Because they did not pursue the law by faith...

They tried to do it by works.

You remove the whole law...

But the difference isn't about keeping the law but HOW WE KEEP IT.

I have not said that the law will save or justify us before God

The law is to be kept by faith not to earn salvation.

The law is to be written on the heart.

Christ did not make the law void. No we are to keep it by faith..

Righteousness is perfect obedience to the law and Christ is our righteousness.
BY FAITH in Christ we are righteous.
He kept the law perfectly and gives us the perfect righteousness needed for salvation.

But do we make the law void? Do we continue to sin? Do transgress the law willingly because of grace...

No .
we keep the law by faith. By faith we love to obey the law.
God gave this perfect law. And it is our delight to obey God.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Isn't Paul making the same point as Jesus. The law was not inadequate but many of those attempting to keep the law were doing it without it being from the heart and in faith. What about Christians today. We claim that we come to God in "faith," but demand that it be only in our "faith." Thus Catholics and the 400 "other" Christian churches can't be saved because they don't use our definition of "faith." Jesus and Paul castigated those who only believed in "their form of religion" but their real heart was far from God. Their faith was in their "correct" religion.

I am not making a case for the old law. What I remain concerned about is all our simple, unexamined dogmas/interpretation when it comes to understanding what the scriptures "say" (The Pharisees knew theirs better than we do ours). When we accept Paul's larger perspective, faith is not our highest objective. Paul was clear, it is about who we love, how we love and who we excluded our love and thus from the love of God by choice and/or by indifference. If "Faith is our only objective, it should paired with Paul's edict that "faith" without love is just noise. It has been my experience that there is little difference in a person who has no real demonstrable love for the unlovable but claims salvation by Grace through Faith and the Pharisees of old who knew the words of God, but not the heart of God.

 

[biblestudent78]

One of the more confused replies I have seen.

Acts 15, is not placing the Gentiles under the law just the opposite.

The Gentiles were given a few rules so that they did upset the Jews so much.

Acts 15, is strongly stating that Gentiles are not to be circumcised nor are they
bound by the law.

To be bound in what you eat in compliance with the Law of Moses is to remain bound to the law. There are lots of things they were not bound by, but in the same there were things they were bound by. I made no claim that Gentiles were "under the law" but they were under provisions of the Law.

 

[vassal]

I know it well. Consider Jesus stated that his followers' righteousness must "surpass that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law" to enter the kingdom of heaven, as found in Matthew 5:20. He did not say this to advocate for a higher level of legalistic obedience but rather a more profound, inner righteousness rooted in the spirit of the law, not just the letter. It meant keeping the law in your actions and in your heart. Even the early Christian Church required that gentile converts were still subject to ceremonial Jewish laws. No eating strangled meat or meat with blood in it. No eating of meat offered to idols. No sexual immorality. These were dietary and thus Jewish ceremonial laws that Gentiles were required to obey. In Matthew 19:3-12 Jesus demands that the Jewish laws on marriage be followed more perfectly. In Matthew 19:16-22 Jesus tell a person that to go to heaven you must obey the law. The young man said he had been faithful to the law his entire life. Jesus asked one more thing of him - which was an extension of the law - to sell all and give it to the poor..

So I don't think that the simple answer that the only part of the Hebrew law we need to keep is the 10 commandments without incorporating what Jesus said.

then what needs to be incorporated ? Jesus said to enter into life he did say keep the commandments, he enumerated the commandments when the rich ruler asked him what to to to have eternal life. Many laws of the law of Moses cannot be followed today they became obsolete, which laws of Moses shall we keep then, many of these laws were given to the slaves that flee from Egypt and was necessary for their well being, most of them are no longer necessary today, then the New covenant is enforced in FUll at Jesus return, he will put all the Laws that He requires in out hearts and no one will teach anyone about them ever thereafter as everyone part of the Kingdom will know them fully it will be part them. the ten commandments are clearly on the list. what is the rest of the law of Moses you think people should still follow? NO one ever clearly answered this question.

 

[memberofthebride]

Don't get all confused by words and religious phrases. Jesus wants action, doing,

Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

action not words

Matthew 5
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I would guess most of the 40,000 kinds of Christians would say the 4th Commandment is the least. They follow the changes made by the Catholic Church, but even the vast majority use Sunday as the time for recreation, not resting.

Fact is Matthew 24 and 25 and Revelation are coming because no one will obey.

My guess the above will not sit well with most --- I did not write it, Christ is the one that put it in the Bible.

 

[andy700700]

Romans 3:23
New International Version
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 6:14-23
New International Version
14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

Leviticus 22:31
New International Version
31 “Keep my commands and follow them. I am the Lord.

Matthew 5:17-22
New International Version
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[TMS]

there is no way around the penalty of death for sin, if there were, then Christ did not need to die

Amen
Praise God.... if only others would see this point.