I'm saying a Christian can walk after the flesh and fail to work out the salvation they have been given. I see them all the time, anxious, neurotic, living in fear, always worrying about tomorrow.
Loss of salvation???
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I'm saying a Christian can walk after the flesh and fail to work out the salvation they have been given. I see them all the time, anxious, neurotic, living in fear, always worrying about tomorrow.
Unless there's other verses I'm not remembering, it doesn't say that. It says it's the father's will that he lose none. It's also the father's will that every person be saved. Is that going to happen? No, unfortunately
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. John 6:39
It also says that no man is able to snatch them away from Christ. It's unrealistic to include believers themselves in this because they can indeed separate themselves from Christ. Do you disagree with this statement?And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. John 10:28-29
You will never perish.
You will never, no not ever come into condemnation.
You have eternal life.
You have been born of imperishable seed.
You have Christ in you.
You have a FOREVER advocate.
NOTHING can separate you from the love of Christ.
You are sealed with the same seal as the Son. If we are living the Christian way of life(fellowship with the Spirit) and are walking in the Spirit.....You will KNOW you are forever secure in Christ. If we are not in fellowship and not walking in the Spirit....We will be in limbo and unsure.
It's getting worse. Now your saying Christ will fail to uphold the Father's will?
Yes I disagree we can separate ourselves because the scripture states nothing in all creation can separate us and last time I looked, I'm a created entity. Rom.8:39 You see it as unrealistic because you begin from a position that we can separate ourselves but I take the word at face value and when it says "no man", I don't exclude myself because I am a part of humanity along with being a part of creation.
There's also the problem that, once we have been given eternal life, Christ says they will never perish but again you contradict Him by saying they can perish if they decide to leave. You have man's will trumping God's will as well as Christ failing to do the Father's will.
Very messy imo.
The calvies do this very thing. They dismiss all the Absolutley clear verses of freewill and build their doctrines on a few verses that "seem" to contradict those CLEAR verses.
We will never perish......Clear as a bell.
We will never, no not ever come into condemnation.......Clear as a bell.
We are born of imperishable seed....Clear as a bell.
Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ.....Clear as a bell.
We have eternal life.......... clear as a bell.
The loss of salvation crowd dismisses the clear verses of eternal security and tries to build their doctrine on the few that "seem" to contradict them.
I totally agree. .....That is getting so far out in the weeds(as intended) that one can't reel it back to reality.It's getting worse. Now your saying Christ will fail to uphold the Father's will?
Yes I disagree we can separate ourselves because the scripture states nothing in all creation can separate us and last time I looked, I'm a created entity. Rom.8:39 You see it as unrealistic because you begin from a position that we can separate ourselves but I take the word at face value and when it says "no man", I don't exclude myself because I am a part of humanity along with being a part of creation.
There's also the problem that, once we have been given eternal life, Christ says they will never perish but again you contradict Him by saying they can perish if they decide to leave. You have man's will trumping God's will as well as Christ failing to do the Father's will.
Very messy imo.
We are secure as long as we remain in Christ via faith. Do you also believe that a Christian can't walk away from the faith?
Is Christ failing to uphold the father's will in this case?
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9
Interestingly, the works-based salvationists who think they have within themselves the power to retain their salvation, they can take their chances in trying to tell the Lord how they helped Him out in His insufficient Blood sacrifice for our sins; how they supplemented His taking of our sins into Himself in that the alleged weakness in paying for our sins was only complete through their puny efforts and attempts at obedience, holiness, sacrifice, loyalties, duty, faithfulness, oh, and we can't forget their cooperation (how very Roman Catholic), and even endurance that was commanded of those who were under the Kingdom Gospel of works...that His unmerited favor lavished upon us still needed their efforts in works for it to truly be effective...
The vanity and pride in that position...the enemy of our souls just loves it.
Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Romans 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 3:2, 5, 10
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? ...
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? ...
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Far too many fail to understand that the Law has within it all those things that the prideful think are things that they must do by the strength of their own arm as a supplement to their alleged ability to retain their salvation. The virtues some think is lacking in those who believe in Paul's gospel message, they level that claim with no evidence whatsoever. Adherence to the flesh will always elicit a response from those who make themselves subject to the fleshly tendencies in this life to rely upon the flesh to varying extents, depending on the object of their affectionate appeals.
I'm still waiting, in perpetuity, for any one of them to be brave enough to define for us that line of demarcation whereby one looses his salvation. Without that definition clearly laid out, they try to make the Lord out to be indifferent toward our need to know where that line rests if it even existed at all, which it doesn't. It's imaginary, with its adherents utterly incapable of showing to us where it is, in that what is before it and what is beyond it. Instead, they level their puny accusations at those who disagree with them of allegedly believing that they can live loosely and without restraints against sin and the doing of good works as if what they do is effective. How pathetic indeed.
MM
No one's going to be able to tell you, because only the lord knows that. However, scripture is full of warnings to not do things that jeopardize salvation.
It has been plainly shown you. One example of many:
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21
What has that got to do with Christ not losing any because that is the Father's will?
The Father waits, but some will perish because they never believed in the One and Only Son of God and therefore were never given to Christ in the first place to lose.
You are making things even more confusing imo.
loss of salvation???
Is the proof of this in "saved(written in), and then lost(blotted out) of"
The Lamb's Book Of Life?:
Precious friends, I hardly don't think so, since, According To Scripture:
1) With God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided, we find The Following Truths:
2) God's Desire And Action:
Justice. Because of their refusal of The Love Of The Truth Of God's Gracious Provision
Offered to them, will they not have to acknowledge God's Just Judgment, understanding
that they Truly deserve what they Will Receive (cp "...without excuse..." in Romans 1:20 AV)?
God Has Already Written all names in His Book of Life. However, upon an unbeliever's
death, their name is blotted out from This Book. Consequently, when their name is 'not
found' Therein, they are cast into the Lake of Fire, as described in Revelation 20:11-15 AV,
According To God's Undiluted Wrath!:
3) Precious friends, if still unsure about 'losing ' God's Eternal Salvation, please
Because Of God's Own All-Sufficient BLOOD God's Eternal Salvation Is, In
Biblical Fact, "in view" In God's Revelation Of The Mystery, To/For Gentiles,
Today, In His Dispensation Of The Grace Of God, Biblically Confirmed By:
God's OPERATION On All New-born babes In Christ!
+ Updates: (of # 11) + (of #14)
+
God's Eternal Life Assurance
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance
Finally Precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged And Edified
In Christ, and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!
Amen.
Is the proof of this in "saved(written in), and then lost(blotted out) of"
The Lamb's Book Of Life?:
Precious friends, I hardly don't think so, since, According To Scripture:
1) With God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided, we find The Following Truths:
a) God Has Always Known them "that Are His"
(2 Timothy 2:19; Ephesians 1:4-6 AV)
b) God Has Never Known them "that are Not His" (Matthew 7:21-23 AV),
thus:
c) Conclusion: there is no such Sound Biblical doctrine as:
"God Once ALWAYS knew/saved you and then
( losing salvation ) He Never knew you", Correct?
+2) God's Desire And Action:
a) In 1 Timothy 2:4 AV, It Speaks Of His Uttermost Desire:
"Who Will Have all men To Be Saved, and to
come unto the knowledge of The Truth!"
b) God's Uttermost Provision For His Above Desire:
"Jesus Christ The Righteous..Is The Propitiation for our sins: and not for
ours [ Israel ] only, but also [ Gentiles = ] for the sins of the whole world."
c) Thus Within God's Wonderful Purpose, It Now Makes Perfect Sense That:
He Has Written All mankind's names In His Book Of Life, Has He Not?
Because:
"Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come
into Thy Righteousness. Let them Be Blotted Out of
The Book of the living, and not be Written with the righteous."
[ The Lamb's Book Of Life . . . . . . . . . . . . . . The Lamb's Book Of Life! ]
(Psalm 69:27-28 AV)
Therefore, at the Great White Throne Judgment, unbelievers will face God's RighteousJustice. Because of their refusal of The Love Of The Truth Of God's Gracious Provision
Offered to them, will they not have to acknowledge God's Just Judgment, understanding
that they Truly deserve what they Will Receive (cp "...without excuse..." in Romans 1:20 AV)?
God Has Already Written all names in His Book of Life. However, upon an unbeliever's
death, their name is blotted out from This Book. Consequently, when their name is 'not
found' Therein, they are cast into the Lake of Fire, as described in Revelation 20:11-15 AV,
According To God's Undiluted Wrath!:
3) Precious friends, if still unsure about 'losing ' God's Eternal Salvation, please
prayerfully/Carefully review/meditate (see Bible Study Rules) on God's:
+Because Of God's Own All-Sufficient BLOOD God's Eternal Salvation Is, In
Biblical Fact, "in view" In God's Revelation Of The Mystery, To/For Gentiles,
Today, In His Dispensation Of The Grace Of God, Biblically Confirmed By:
God's OPERATION On All New-born babes In Christ!
+ Updates: (of # 11) + (of #14)
+
God's Eternal Life Assurance
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance
Finally Precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged And Edified
In Christ, and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!
Amen.
IMO, you have walked away from the faith. There is no loss of eternal life in the faith.
So, Yes....one can walk away from the faith.
Saved as if through fire.
All believers will enter, but not all will inherit.......They will lose their inheritance.
The loss of salvation crowd has already denied a very, very real inheritance........110% security of their eternal life. Squandering away a very real inheritance in time. Only the Lord knows what eternal blessings(Inheritance) will be denied them in His Kingdom.
Saying that a person who is truly saved (having the indwelling of the Holy Spirit) can loose their salvation, takes God’s hand and puts it in theirs (and not the other way around) and it makes the will of God weak and beggarly.
Christ didn’t come to show/give us an example. He came to save with the power of God.
When Moses went up on the mount God made him remove his sandals because it was Holy Ground. That being said, do you think he’s not in complete control of who is going to spend eternity in his bosom?
God was fond of David’s heart (not sure of the exact quotation but I remember that’s what I perceived) do you think David made it to the father? Or did God bite his fingernails hoping he didn’t lose his salvation?
Saying that someone who is truly a child of God can lose their salvation is really the only lie (I can imagine) that the devil can take true Joy from a child of God.
Christ says to know the truth and the truth will MAKE you free. Not much option of choice there is there? What is that truth? That truth is that God did what he promised, and Christ is who he claims. Gods got your hand, and there’s nothing that will cause him to loose his grip.
Oh, and the unpardonable sin? Impossible for a true believer to do in his heart. Impossible. Unable to do it.
You have as much choice in your eternal destiny as you did to be born on this planet.
For SALVATION IS OF THE LORD!
Christ didn’t come to show/give us an example. He came to save with the power of God.
When Moses went up on the mount God made him remove his sandals because it was Holy Ground. That being said, do you think he’s not in complete control of who is going to spend eternity in his bosom?
God was fond of David’s heart (not sure of the exact quotation but I remember that’s what I perceived) do you think David made it to the father? Or did God bite his fingernails hoping he didn’t lose his salvation?
Saying that someone who is truly a child of God can lose their salvation is really the only lie (I can imagine) that the devil can take true Joy from a child of God.
Christ says to know the truth and the truth will MAKE you free. Not much option of choice there is there? What is that truth? That truth is that God did what he promised, and Christ is who he claims. Gods got your hand, and there’s nothing that will cause him to loose his grip.
Oh, and the unpardonable sin? Impossible for a true believer to do in his heart. Impossible. Unable to do it.
You have as much choice in your eternal destiny as you did to be born on this planet.
For SALVATION IS OF THE LORD!
Good point. That's somewhat the topical item I made in a previous post, except to say that all names were written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world except those who will, in the tribulation, wonder after the beast.
Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
All other names were already there until they were blotted out, which is the only action scripture records. Never do we see any names being added, but only blotted out. Critical thinking drives one to the undeniable conclusion that even the names of the lost were once there, but blotted out at the point of their death or sometime before that we can't know.
[/QUOTE]
a) In 1 Timothy 2:4 AV, It Speaks Of His Uttermost Desire:
"Who Will Have all men To Be Saved, and to
come unto the knowledge of The Truth!"[/QUOTE]
Every name written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, apart from those who wonder after the beast, fits perfectly with 1 Timothy 2:4. The Lord desired/desires all men to be saved, but some just don't want it, even the point of calling upon the rocks to fall on them to hide them from the Eyes of Him. That level of depravity, that they will take that mark to worship the beast, which we know is utter doom for them, placing them beyond saving, it makes sense that their names were not written in that book because they will place themselves beyond any ability to be saved.
Interesting realities indeed.
MM
Good point.
1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
If one could lose his salvation, that would be a matter of Christ being contradictory. Walking away from, yes, that's real, but that one cannot lose what has already been bestowed. That is one major point that sets apart the Kingdom Gospel from the Gospel of Grace. In the former, one had/has to endure unto the end so that they SHALL be (future tense) saved, where the latter is bestowed without merits from self-effort endurance and proof of faith through works in order to be perfected. Paul never said one word about our faith having to be perfected as James discussed in his epistle to Israel.
Our faith is perfected through the perfection of Christ and His bestowment of favor upon us what could never be merited. Some may argue some level of unfairness that we have what they did not have before the fall of Israel, nor will have in the tribulation after the rapture.
This too is an important point...the Vatican teaches its blind followers that they will be here during the tribulation. That's impossible for those who are truly saved by grace through faith. For truly saved believers to be left here during the tribulation, with some of them taking the mark under extreme duress and walking away from the faith, that would make Christ contradictory in denying Himself given that all who are/will be truly saved cannot lose their salvation. Those who take the mark of the beast, they cannot be saved, so the saved taking that mark would be worse than matter meeting antimatter.
So we can then see why the enemy of our souls wants people to believe in the loss of salvation so that they then are, whether knowingly or unknowingly, accusing Christ of being self-denying, self-contradictory, a liar and unfaithful.
Excellent points, Kroogz.
MM