Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[cv5]

Keep digging your grave, sir.

Amo 9:2
Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:

 

[Jordon]

You are wish-casting again?
Pharisaical gatekeepers of Jesus' day imposed similar barriers in front of those whom they thought unworthy totally depraved sinners BTW......

[Mat 23:13 KJV]
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

[Mat 23:15 KJV]
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

[Mat 23:23 KJV]
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

the word of God is the power to save

But your freewill will not

His word says only his Godly sorrow which is also his word can lead to repentance.

All your doing is twisting his word to suit your will and your flesh

 

[Genez]

Oh I'm not as daft as make out, neither am I the baby or child you like to think I am

In your flesh? You might be a 60-year-old man.
Your thinking, biblically, is on the level of a baby Christian.

You are jumping in where you do not understand.

 

[Jordon]

In your flesh? You might be a 60-year-old man.
Your thinking, biblically, is on the level of a baby Christian.

You are jumping in where you do not understand.

like I said If you give a smack head a hundred pounds he can kill himself for you

 

[Genez]

Amo 9:2
Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:

Berean Standard Bible

Though they dig down to Sheol, from there My hand will take them; ​

and though they climb up to heaven, from there I will pull them down.​

.....

 

[4urenlightment]

Nice. Only those with the Spirit of God can receive and understand the Spiritual things of God. All others do not comprehend and are opposed to the Spiritual things of God as per Scripture, which many love to contradict and deny, pretending such a man as the natural man does not exist, he who is NOT indwelt with the Holy Spirit of God. Scripture also states that those without the Spirit do not belong to God, that the world cannot receive the Spirit of Truth. Say these things, quote these Scriptural truths, and some of these free willers will condemn you. They want to pretend that the natural man is simply a carnal Christian, as if first comes the natural, then comes the spiritual, were not true. They want to believe the flesh can do what Scripture says it cannot. Watch for those who say God is not even required.

The reason we're under grace because we're unable to complete all the laws. Like the dietary laws. Some Christians can't follow those laws because they love pork and shellfish like lobsters and crabs. But the laws were only made for our own benefits, but we are still unable to follow them.
And so, Jesus used His blood to cleanse every sinful mistake we do. And those who are a part of God's family like a brother or sister are those who regrets from doing the sin. But the wicked aren't a part of the family because they love it or don't care when they have sinned. that they don't have God's will (Desires) in them.

Leviticus 16:19
He shall sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times to cleanse it and to consecrate it from the uncleanness of the Israelites.

Hebrews 9:22
In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Matthew 18:21
Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”

Matthew 12:48-50
He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

 

[Rufus]

Believing in/trusting in the Saviour is NOT equal to making oneself the saviour.

Please do not ever make the accusation that we distort what you believe when you make this most false accusation and distortion.

This tells me how desperate "the system" makes people.

It is when FWers like yourself make man's will the efficacious component that triggers his own salvation. Your own words condemn you because your FWers so often have stated that God makes everyone's salvation merely POSSIBLE -- meaning that man, in order to become saved, has to pick up the horrendous slack to God's grace.

 

[Genez]

like I said If you give a smack head a hundred pounds he can kill himself for you

Writing your own Bible?

In the beginning was the Jordon.
And, the Jordon was with his ego.
And, his ego was god.

 

[Jordon]

Berean Standard Bible

Though they dig down to Sheol, from there My hand will take them; ​

and though they climb up to heaven, from there I will pull them down.​

.....

better still go and ask a heroin addict if I give you a some smack will you believe in God

 

[Jordon]

The reason we're under grace because we're unable to complete all the laws. Like the dietary laws. Some Christians can't follow those laws because they love pork and shellfish like lobsters and crabs. But the laws were only made for our own benefits, but we are still unable to follow them.
And so, Jesus used His blood to cleanse every sinful mistake we do. And those who are a part of God's family like a brother or sister are those who regrets from doing the sin. But the wicked aren't a part of the family because they love it or don't care when they have sinned. that they don't have God's will (Desires) in them.

Leviticus 16:19
He shall sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times to cleanse it and to consecrate it from the uncleanness of the Israelites.

Hebrews 9:22
In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Matthew 18:21
Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”

Matthew 12:48-50
He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

Err no where saved by grace is the main reason.

 

[Rufus]

Calvinism is a false answer to "who comes to belief?"

The Bible tells people they should and can.

Like daughter like father! Another half truth! Give me chapter and verse that teaches that proud, fallen man has the intrinsic ability to believe the gospel truth which he naturally hates.

 

[Magenta]

The reason we're under grace because we're unable to complete all the laws. Like the dietary laws. Some Christians can't follow those laws because they love pork and shellfish like lobsters and crabs. But the laws were only made for our own benefits, but we are still unable to follow them.
And so, Jesus used His blood to cleanse every sinful mistake we do. And those who are a part of God's family like a brother or sister are those who regrets from doing the sin. But the wicked aren't a part of the family because they love it or don't care when they have sinned. that they don't have God's will (Desires) in them.

Leviticus 16:19
He shall sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times to cleanse it and to consecrate it from the uncleanness of the Israelites.

Hebrews 9:22
In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Matthew 18:21
Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”

Matthew 12:48-50
He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

Yes well that's the thing these people will say that everybody has free will to choose, but then they will turn around and claim, oh these people that didn't have their names written in the Lamb's book of life from before the foundation of the world don't have a choice. They contradict themselves. Not only that, they contradict Scripture in so many places, but when it is pointed out to them they don't acknowledge it, they just pretend the Scripture doesn't mean what it says or they rewrite it to make it fit their presuppositions.

 

[cv5]

the word of God is the power to save

But your freewill will not

The Pharisees approve, I however disagree.

Jhn 7:17
If any man will G2309 do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

 

[Rufus]

@Roda

Welcome to ChristianChat.
May the Lord Jesus bless you beyond all imagining.
May you also continually ask for the guidance of the Holy Spirit in your study of Scripture here, as well.

In any event, I want to clarify that BillyBob is only giving you the half truth in this discussion involving all the players.
Arminians believe that man does not inherently have the ability to choose God without His drawing, conviction, and enlightenment.

Here is a list of the different positions involved:

#1. Calvinism (Total Depravity meaning Total Inability, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints).​

​

#2. Arminianism (Believes that God enables the free will at the right time in a person's life to make a choice toward Him. Without this divine enlightenment, enabling, and drawing, a person does not have the ability or full capacity to choose God of his own free will choice). This view appeals to verses such as John 12:32, John 1:9, and Titus 2:11.​

​

#3. Pelagianism (Denies that God has to intervene at all for man to see spiritually or be able to understand the gospel message and make a genuine choice concerning Christ).​

I believe in free will and yet I also believe that man does not have the ability to choose God on his own without God’s drawing, conviction of sin, and the opening of a person’s heart (John 6:44, Acts 16:14). Yet I believe Christ draws all men unto Himself (John 12:32). This means there will be a time in a person's life where they will not be blinded by Satan and in a sinful state without understanding, where they do not seek after God (Romans 3:10–11, 2 Corinthians 4:4).

I lean heavily toward Arminianism, yet I reject the label they use called “Total Depravity,” which I believe should be called “Partial Depravity,” because God intervenes at some point in a person’s life. Arminians believe in a concept called “Prevenient Grace.” Although I do not prefer the term “Prevenient Grace,” since I see grace as salvation when it is in the context of God and man, I prefer the term “Divine Enablement or Enlightenment,” which falls under God’s drawing of man at the right moment in a person’s life (John 6:44, John 12:32, Titus 2:11).

So when Jesus says, “This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent” (John 6:29 KJV), He is not saying that our believing is a work. That would contradict Ephesians 2:8–9. “The work of God” refers to God’s work, not our own. It is God who grants the capacity and the opportunity to believe.

Regular Calvinists in general (not all of the ones here) see the order like this:

1. Election (God’s grace)
2. Regeneration meaning being born again, which they see as the start of salvation
3. Faith (Belief in the gospel)
4. Full salvation

Hyper Calvinists see the order like this:

1. Election (God’s grace)
2. Regeneration meaning being born again, which they see as full salvation itself
3. Faith (Belief in the gospel), which they treat as merely the fruit of salvation

Arminians see the order like this:

1. Election, which in this view is based on God’s foreknowledge of man’s positive free will choice toward Him (1 Peter 1:1–2). In the context, the word “elect” also has a semantic range that can include things God desires for us to do in this life, such as holy living (1 Thessalonians 4:7).
2. Prevenient Grace, which I prefer to call “Divine Enlightenment or Enablement.” This includes God temporarily freeing a person from the blindness of Satan. God draws, God convicts, and God opens the heart and eyes to enable a free will choice concerning Him and the gospel message of salvation (John 12:32, John 1:9, Titus 2:11, Acts 16:14).
3. Faith (Belief in the gospel)
4. Regeneration meaning being born again or salvation (God’s grace) (Acts 3:19, John 3:3–7)

Pelagians see the order like this:

1. Election, which they define as God’s foreknowledge of man’s positive free will choice toward Him (1 Peter 1:1–2). As noted before, “elect” can also include God’s calling for holy living.
2. Faith (Belief in the gospel)
3. Regeneration meaning being born again or salvation (God’s grace)

The crux of the main moral problem in Calvinism is this: If God forces some people to be saved based on no conditions within them, and He forces others to not be saved (also based on no conditions within them), then God is creating the majority of mankind for the specific purpose of being tortured in flames for all eternity as their only fate or destiny, with man having no say-so in the matter. God could have saved them, but He simply chose for them to burn, scream, and be tortured forever as a part of the good counsel of His will. And if that is true, then statements in the Bible like ‘God is love’ (1 John 4:8) or ‘God is good’ (Psalm 34:8) become hollow and empty because such a portrayal ultimately turns God into a monster.
.....

So...what do you do? The very thing you accuse Roger of! What good is God's "drawing, conviction and enlightenment" since there no efficacy to God's grace!? Your half truth merely pays lip service to God's grace. And the proof is in the eating. Blind squirrels very likely find a much higher percentage of nuts than God's ineffectual grace finds believers. Is not the vast majority of the world perishing as it finds its merry way to hell?

 

[Jordon]

The Pharisees approve, I however disagree.

Jhn 7:17
If any man will G2309 do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

man is under two active living wills living in them one for living and one for the none living

Romans 9:18

Let's see you riggle out of this one with your snake oil you say we have

 

[Rufus]

Keep digging your grave, sir.

The grave is more your eternal hope, sir. Mine is life eternal in the Lord!

 

[lrs68]

Grace is simply that mankind's inability to save themselves required God to become man and lay His life down because He was the only One who could pick it up after death.

 

[Genez]

man is under two active living wills living in them one for living and one for the none living

Romans 9:18

Let's see you riggle out of this one with your snake oil you say we have

Your people do not understand God well enough in that matter.

Romans 9:18?

Therefore, God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, ​

and he hardens whom he wants to harden.​

That is telling us to back off in telling God what only he knows best to do.

It is like the girl praying to God to make a certain boy to fall in love with her.
Like another person praying that God would make someone hurt because he does not like him.

Or, even yet....

Certain Christians back in the first century praying that God will kill a Pharisee named Saul for harming so many Christians as he was doing!

Romans 9:18 is God is ordering us not to try to direct His steps, to have Him do our subjective will!

Therefore, God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, ​

and he hardens whom he wants to harden.​

That is God telling us to be a spectator in certain matters, and not try to be the team's manager.
For we just can not know what God is going to do next with His plan of action involving people.

They key is...
Learn sound doctrine to know the mind of Christ.
Giving us rest as God does what He must do in spite of how we may feel about it in our natural way of thinking.

For his ways are not our ways!

​

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,​

neither are your ways my ways,”​

declares the Lord. Isiah 55:8.​

.

That's a tough one for those who are antagonized by genuine authority.

........

 

[Genez]

The grave is more your eternal hope, sir. Mine is life eternal in the Lord!

Of course, it is!
You're Mr. Perfecto!

 

[cv5]

man is under two active living wills living in them one for living and one for the none living
Romans 9:18
Let's see you riggle out of this one with your snake oil you say we have

All told, the arguments of the Calvinists are specious and then they move on to absurd.
But always and forever biblically illiterate.