Loss of salvation???

[Musicmaster]

This discussion in my opinion has caused more arguments then edify The reader in my experience with it. I would advise everyone who joins in this discussion to pray before you join in and ask God by his Holy Spirit to lead and teach us the truth of this subject.

Albert, appeals to authority in Theology are a quagmire arena with some areas being quicksand and others solid ground. My Th.D dissertation hit upon some of this phenomenon in my critiques of some scholastic works by others who had many more letters attached to their names than I could ever dream of achieving in this life...mainly due to my dissatisfaction with modern scholarship that has created, for example, many of the modern translations (so called). Sitting in theological symposiums was, at times, tedious and agonizing as fellow wind-bags such as myself droned on about what we think are our findings. We like to think that our research was exhaustive enough to have plumbed the full depths of data available in libraries, ancient repositories and excavations.

Some of us, however, have decided to go before the One who IS in the know; who inspired it to be written that His Thoughts and Ways are above ours as the heavens are above the earth. Mavericks such as myself dare to ask for His Thoughts and His Ways, and you know what...He gives to those who ask; in various measures of course. My godfather had two doctorals, which prompted me to get at least one, and I remain unimpressed with it all.

That's all to say that, just like those without letters attached to their names, we in our arena also gravitate toward those who wrote and/or said things that appeal to our personal tastes, which is to say that we too take a shine to those who happen to align with what we think is logical and coherently consistent with what we want to believe...tendency-wise, that is. Critical thinking is a minefield at times, for we sometimes don't apply it enough or we apply it too much. The Lord has driven me more toward Himself for that exercise than to books and lectures. In that relationship, we then inevitably learn how ignorant mankind really is in this fallen world of ours when sourcing our knowledge from scholarship before ever seeking His guidance for where to find the truth...

BTW

 

[Sipsey]

Albert, appeals to authority in Theology are a quagmire arena with some areas being quicksand and others solid ground. My Th.D dissertation hit upon some of this phenomenon in my critiques of some scholastic works by others who had many more letters attached to their names than I could ever dream of achieving in this life...mainly due to my dissatisfaction with modern scholarship that has created, for example, many of the modern translations (so called). Sitting in theological symposiums was, at times, tedious and agonizing as fellow wind-bags such as myself droned on about what we think are our findings. We like to think that our research was exhaustive enough to have plumbed the full depths of data available in libraries, ancient repositories and excavations.

Some of us, however, have decided to go before the One who IS in the know; who inspired it to be written that His Thoughts and Ways are above ours as the heavens are above the earth. Mavericks such as myself dare to ask for His Thoughts and His Ways, and you know what...He gives to those who ask; in various measures of course. My godfather had two doctorals, which prompted me to get at least one, and I remain unimpressed with it all.

That's all to say that, just like those without letters attached to their names, we in our arena also gravitate toward those who wrote and/or said things that appeal to our personal tastes, which is to say that we too take a shine to those who happen to align with what we think is logical and coherently consistent with what we want to believe...tendency-wise, that is. Critical thinking is a minefield at times, for we sometimes don't apply it enough or we apply it too much. The Lord has driven me more toward Himself for that exercise than to books and lectures. In that relationship, we then inevitably learn how ignorant mankind really is in this fallen world of ours when sourcing our knowledge from scholarship before ever seeking His guidance for where to find the truth...

BTW

I love books, however—-
“Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh.”
Yet we are commanded to “Study.” Seems a balancing act.

 

[Barber]

So your telling me that JESUS didn't know that Nicodemus was already born?

Did you know when we are born naturaly that is when we get our sins?

Did you know that if we were not alread born we would not be able to chose to follow JESUS or Satan?

What do you think the word REBORN means?

How can we be REBORN if not born in the first place?

Born of water does mean baptism because that is when we GET rid of our sins.

Of couse we need both to enter as JESUS says.

 

[Barber]

No, getting baptized is not when we "get rid of our sins" as you say. This occurs when we come to the heart felt trust and understanding that Jesus Christ substituted Himself, in our place, and took the capital punishment we deserved, Himself, on our behalf! That is when our sins, past, present, and future are forgiven, and we are born again.
I admit to not understanding fully what the "water" is actually illuding to in this verse. However, if it does mean baptism, that is strange that stepping down into a pool of water and immersing ourselves, is actually needed for eternal life, when the vast majority of the New Testament emphatically states that we are saved by grace through faith, alone, and not of any works! It would have been very easy to just make it clear, any time the subject of our salvation comes up in the New Testament, by stating something like "grace through faith, and with the waters of baptism." Yet the preponderance of Scripture does not! So it must mean something else. Perhaps the water of natural physical birth is the first birth, then when one receives the Holy Spirit by faith and becomes born again, this is the second birth.

 

[Caveman]

No, getting baptized is not when we "get rid of our sins" as you say. This occurs when we come to the heart felt trust and understanding that Jesus Christ substituted Himself, in our place, and took the capital punishment we deserved, Himself, on our behalf! That is when our sins, past, present, and future are forgiven, and we are born again.
I admit to not understanding fully what the "water" is actually illuding to in this verse. However, if it does mean baptism, that is strange that stepping down into a pool of water and immersing ourselves, is actually needed for eternal life, when the vast majority of the New Testament emphatically states that we are saved by grace through faith, alone, and not of any works! It would have been very easy to just make it clear, any time the subject of our salvation comes up in the New Testament, by stating something like "grace through faith, and with the waters of baptism." Yet the preponderance of Scripture does not! So it must mean something else. Perhaps the water of natural physical birth is the first birth, then when one receives the Holy Spirit by faith and becomes born again, this is the second birth.

Hi Barber,

The confusion lies in that Believers are seeing the Gospel from a Greek western view that the first century believers didn't have...

In Greek-influenced theology, salvation is often treated as a static possession (something you “have” and could “lose”). But in Hebraic covenantal thought, salvation is relational — it’s about fidelity to the covenant and ongoing trust in the covenant mediator (Jesus).

How Hebrews 6:4–6 fits this relational lens

• Not a lost possession: The text isn’t saying someone “misplaced” salvation like an object. Instead, it’s describing a covenant relationship that has been ruptured.
• Covenant betrayal: To “fall away” after tasting the Spirit and the powers of the age to come is to decisively reject the covenant itself — like breaking a marriage vow.
• Irreversibility without Christ: The impossibility of renewal is not because God refuses repentance, but because there is no other covenantal path. If one rejects Christ, there is no alternative sacrifice or mediator to return to.
• Return to the Savior: Restoration is only possible if the person turns back to Jesus, the covenant mediator. Until that happens, the relationship remains broken.

The big picture
From this view, Hebrews 6 is a warning passage: don’t abandon the covenant relationship you’ve entered. If you do, the bond is shattered — but the door is always open if you return to Christ, because He alone is the covenant’s foundation.

Western Gospel is a "Meism Salvation" because your Salvation is "you" determinative...your faith, your belief, your endurance to the end and your loyalty...that's the Greek Gospel view.

Whereas the Hebraic Gospel is Christ Alone + nothing!

The Greek Salvation view is an inverted, skewed and foreign Gospel that is a completely DIFFERENT Gospel than Covenant Hebraic Salvation; and that is why Believers are so confused about Salvation (how you get it and how you keep it).

The first thing that is that they conflate NT Scripture which is referencing Sanctification (relationship) with the Greek influenced ideal of Salvation.

Please show me I am mistaken and where I have a "wrong" understanding of YOUR Gospel (not you Barber..the big you); a Gospel where Salvation is dependent on my faith, my loyalty and my endurance.

Please help me by filling in the "for some" questions I have for each Salvation phase below:

Greek view = Christ crucified = Atonement (for some?) = Justified (for some?) = Sanctified (for some?) = Glorified (for some?)

Barber...you sound like you are in agreement with the Hebraic Covenant Gospel but maybe didn't connect the dots yet...here's why I say that.

I know the Western doctrine of Salvation can't be defended because it has too many holes in it.

On the one hand we so totally failed the Mosaic Covenant that God had to bring in the Renewed Covenant established in the Life Blood of His Only Begotten Son. He brought us Salvation as a free gift because God so Loved the world with Christ Crucified and Him Alone!

BUT

On the other hand, the Western (Greeked up mess) Salvation Gospel is conditionally received by my faith, my loyalty, my enduring to the end ect...This is not the same Gospel the first century Believers Believed!

The Hebraic view is unapologetic in its Salvation view.

Christ crucified = Atonement = Justified = Sanctified = Glorified + nothing...

 

[Sipsey]

Hi Barber,

The confusion lies in that Believers are seeing the Gospel from a Greek western view that the first century believers didn't have...

In Greek-influenced theology, salvation is often treated as a static possession (something you “have” and could “lose”). But in Hebraic covenantal thought, salvation is relational — it’s about fidelity to the covenant and ongoing trust in the covenant mediator (Jesus).

How Hebrews 6:4–6 fits this relational lens

• Not a lost possession: The text isn’t saying someone “misplaced” salvation like an object. Instead, it’s describing a covenant relationship that has been ruptured.
• Covenant betrayal: To “fall away” after tasting the Spirit and the powers of the age to come is to decisively reject the covenant itself — like breaking a marriage vow.
• Irreversibility without Christ: The impossibility of renewal is not because God refuses repentance, but because there is no other covenantal path. If one rejects Christ, there is no alternative sacrifice or mediator to return to.
• Return to the Savior: Restoration is only possible if the person turns back to Jesus, the covenant mediator. Until that happens, the relationship remains broken.

The big picture
From this view, Hebrews 6 is a warning passage: don’t abandon the covenant relationship you’ve entered. If you do, the bond is shattered — but the door is always open if you return to Christ, because He alone is the covenant’s foundation.

Western Gospel is a "Meism Salvation" because your Salvation is "you" determinative...your faith, your belief, your endurance to the end and your loyalty...that's the Greek Gospel view.

Whereas the Hebraic Gospel is Christ Alone + nothing!

The Greek Salvation view is an inverted, skewed and foreign Gospel that is a completely DIFFERENT Gospel than Covenant Hebraic Salvation; and that is why Believers are so confused about Salvation (how you get it and how you keep it).

The first thing that is that they conflate NT Scripture which is referencing Sanctification (relationship) with the Greek influenced ideal of Salvation.

Please show me I am mistaken and where I have a "wrong" understanding of YOUR Gospel (not you Barber..the big you); a Gospel where Salvation is dependent on my faith, my loyalty and my endurance.

Please help me by filling in the "for some" questions I have for each Salvation phase below:

Greek view = Christ crucified = Atonement (for some?) = Justified (for some?) = Sanctified (for some?) = Glorified (for some?)

Barber...you sound like you are in agreement with the Hebraic Covenant Gospel but maybe didn't connect the dots yet...here's why I say that.

I know the Western doctrine of Salvation can't be defended because it has too many holes in it.

On the one hand we so totally failed the Mosaic Covenant that God had to bring in the Renewed Covenant established in the Life Blood of His Only Begotten Son. He brought us Salvation as a free gift because God so Loved the world with Christ Crucified and Him Alone!

BUT

On the other hand, the Western (Greeked up mess) Salvation Gospel is conditionally received by my faith, my loyalty, my enduring to the end ect...This is not the same Gospel the first century Believers Believed!

The Hebraic view is unapologetic in its Salvation view.

Christ crucified = Atonement = Justified = Sanctified = Glorified + nothing...

So, according to your theory there has been no credible New Testament all these years? Where pray tell is this Hebrew NT you speak of, and who authored it?

 

[Ouch]

No, getting baptized is not when we "get rid of our sins" as you say. This occurs when we come to the heart felt trust and understanding that Jesus Christ substituted Himself, in our place, and took the capital punishment we deserved, Himself, on our behalf! That is when our sins, past, present, and future are forgiven, and we are born again.
I admit to not understanding fully what the "water" is actually illuding to in this verse. However, if it does mean baptism, that is strange that stepping down into a pool of water and immersing ourselves, is actually needed for eternal life, when the vast majority of the New Testament emphatically states that we are saved by grace through faith, alone, and not of any works! It would have been very easy to just make it clear, any time the subject of our salvation comes up in the New Testament, by stating something like "grace through faith, and with the waters of baptism." Yet the preponderance of Scripture does not! So it must mean something else. Perhaps the water of natural physical birth is the first birth, then when one receives the Holy Spirit by faith and becomes born again, this is the second birth.

So just tell me with scripture how we get rid of our sins, keep it simple.

I will say the only way is to be baptized in JESUS name, now I need to back it up with HIS WORD.

Acts 2:38-39
King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Acts 22:16
King James Version
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

I think the big problem is some do not rightly divide the word.

All books after the book of Acts was to established churches not to the unsaved.

But, your turn show me how we get rid of sins using HIS word please.

 

[Ouch]

Hi Barber,

The confusion lies in that Believers are seeing the Gospel from a Greek western view that the first century believers didn't have...

In Greek-influenced theology, salvation is often treated as a static possession (something you “have” and could “lose”). But in Hebraic covenantal thought, salvation is relational — it’s about fidelity to the covenant and ongoing trust in the covenant mediator (Jesus).

How Hebrews 6:4–6 fits this relational lens

• Not a lost possession: The text isn’t saying someone “misplaced” salvation like an object. Instead, it’s describing a covenant relationship that has been ruptured.
• Covenant betrayal: To “fall away” after tasting the Spirit and the powers of the age to come is to decisively reject the covenant itself — like breaking a marriage vow.
• Irreversibility without Christ: The impossibility of renewal is not because God refuses repentance, but because there is no other covenantal path. If one rejects Christ, there is no alternative sacrifice or mediator to return to.
• Return to the Savior: Restoration is only possible if the person turns back to Jesus, the covenant mediator. Until that happens, the relationship remains broken.

The big picture
From this view, Hebrews 6 is a warning passage: don’t abandon the covenant relationship you’ve entered. If you do, the bond is shattered — but the door is always open if you return to Christ, because He alone is the covenant’s foundation.

Western Gospel is a "Meism Salvation" because your Salvation is "you" determinative...your faith, your belief, your endurance to the end and your loyalty...that's the Greek Gospel view.

Whereas the Hebraic Gospel is Christ Alone + nothing!

The Greek Salvation view is an inverted, skewed and foreign Gospel that is a completely DIFFERENT Gospel than Covenant Hebraic Salvation; and that is why Believers are so confused about Salvation (how you get it and how you keep it).

The first thing that is that they conflate NT Scripture which is referencing Sanctification (relationship) with the Greek influenced ideal of Salvation.

Please show me I am mistaken and where I have a "wrong" understanding of YOUR Gospel (not you Barber..the big you); a Gospel where Salvation is dependent on my faith, my loyalty and my endurance.

Please help me by filling in the "for some" questions I have for each Salvation phase below:

Greek view = Christ crucified = Atonement (for some?) = Justified (for some?) = Sanctified (for some?) = Glorified (for some?)

Barber...you sound like you are in agreement with the Hebraic Covenant Gospel but maybe didn't connect the dots yet...here's why I say that.

I know the Western doctrine of Salvation can't be defended because it has too many holes in it.

On the one hand we so totally failed the Mosaic Covenant that God had to bring in the Renewed Covenant established in the Life Blood of His Only Begotten Son. He brought us Salvation as a free gift because God so Loved the world with Christ Crucified and Him Alone!

BUT

On the other hand, the Western (Greeked up mess) Salvation Gospel is conditionally received by my faith, my loyalty, my enduring to the end ect...This is not the same Gospel the first century Believers Believed!

The Hebraic view is unapologetic in its Salvation view.

Christ crucified = Atonement = Justified = Sanctified = Glorified + nothing...

When GOD had HIS rule book put together it was for ALL and it's so easy to read.

Why all of the confusion?

Acts 2:38-39
King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Acts 22:16
King James Version
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Satan's plan, keep them out of the water and if they get in the water keep JESUS name out of it.

 

[Musicmaster]

So, according to your theory there has been no credible New Testament all these years? Where pray tell is this Hebrew NT you speak of, and who authored it?

Some people are fixated on calling it a "covenant" as opposed to a testament where the outcome was based upon the death of Christ rather than just His life in the flesh.

2 Corinthians 5:16 — Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

So much richness one may glean from scripture compared to the usual fare of religious nonsense the masses feast upon from pulpits mostly filled by false teaching pastors they support with their hard-earned wages.

Most remain somewhat satisfied with shallowness and slapping negative sounding labels onto beliefs they don't like or misrepresent, while using noble sounding labels for their own beliefs. We've all done this. It's an effective tactic used by the masses.

As a Hebrew, I know experientially how we think as a people, and have encountered numerous people who think they know us better than we.

As long as you read scripture for what it says and seek Holy Spirit for your instruction, the Lord will guide your steps as He does for all those who ask with a sincere heart and humility. (1 John 2:27)

MM

 

[Sipsey]

Some people are fixated on calling it a "covenant" as opposed to a testament where the outcome was based upon the death of Christ rather than just His life in the flesh.

2 Corinthians 5:16 — Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

So much richness one may glean from scripture compared to the usual fare of religious nonsense the masses feast upon from pulpits mostly filled by false teaching pastors they support with their hard-earned wages.

Most remain somewhat satisfied with shallowness and slapping negative sounding labels onto beliefs they don't like or misrepresent, while using noble sounding labels for their own beliefs. We've all done this. It's an effective tactic used by the masses.

As a Hebrew, I know experientially how we think as a people, and have encountered numerous people who think they know us better than we.

As long as you read scripture for what it says and seek Holy Spirit for your instruction, the Lord will guide your steps as He does for all those who ask with a sincere heart and humility. (1 John 2:27)

MM

Some of best teaching I have encountered over the years was from Messianic Jews. One was once a Rabbi. I thoroughly enjoy the background and idioms for context.

 

[Caveman]

This sounds like a blend of Determinism and Free Grace theologies. For me it's all pointless apart from looking at specific Scriptures and explaining why they in any language mean what someone proposes that they mean.

I have shown for anyone to see that Greek Linguistic influence has skewed the entire NT Gospel message into foreign Me-centric Salvation that is factually DIFFERENT than the Covenant thread that has been weaved throughout the entire Bible.

Greek has Christ telling the folks and His Disciples to do whatever the Pharisees say to do, whereas the Hebrew Sephardic Manuscripts say to follow Moses; and 1 John exposes Greek influence that undercuts the intended meaning of the Covenant Keeping "Son" not the greeked up abstract "Word"; this is not a little matter! Worst of all the stain of Gee-kism presents and entirely different Gospel!

That's the whole problem with the Greek. ..since the whole NT is infused with this messed up Geek-ism how can we dissect it to find what is original truth.

You see...if I rewrite the NT infused with say Cavemanism so that almost all Believers today are versed in my Cavemanism NT, how can anyone latter who wants to understand the NT prior to the infusion of Cavemanism into the NT argue with the NT Cavemanism Believers when they say ...I will only accept a line of logic if it can be backed up by Cavemanism Scriptures verse by verse?

That's what's going on here.

As far as God goes...He knows everything from beginning to end...He has also granted men free will; one does not exclude the other.
As far as His Salvation plan, He has given men only one conditional Covenant and we all miserably failed (continue to fail the Mosaic Covenant) so badly that He made (Renewed) a New Covenant; ratified in His only Begotten Son's life's Blood.

God Guarantees Covenant obligations in order to save us all. This was accomplished at the Atonement where He granted us His free gift (Justification) and invited us into a living relationship (sanctification) where we cooperate with His Spirit to transform us into His image; and one day He will purge us of all sin (Glorification).

Haven’t you just shown that salvation or covenant participation is conditional when you say it’s about fidelity and that, after breaking the covenant, restoration requires turning back to Christ No...Justification is Gifted and Sanctification is an invitation that includes our cooperative participation; Glorification is all God's doing- since this presumes the person previously accepted Christ and must endure - even though you earlier insisted that faith, loyalty, and endurance aren’t conditions for salvation? Aren’t good relationships cooperative?

 

[Caveman]

You're a man of many words that clutter the mind, but don't speak to the heart, therefore it's impossible for me to follow your disjointed reasoning. Covenant theology has nothing to do with Hebraic vs Greek mindsets. Absolutely nothing.

I think covenants are the proper way to view God's dealings with mankind, but every covenant made with Israel was conditioned upon obedience. Under the covenant of circumcision the condition was circumcision; under the covenant of law made at Sinai and the covenant of blessings and curses made in Moab it was obedience to the law; under the new covenant it is obedience to Jesus' words. Scripture witnesses that conditional covenants can be broken. If you think the new covenant relationship can't be broken through disobedience, then you're just kidding yourself. Vain faith just "believes", whereas unhypocritical faith acts on what Christ says.

Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Romans 11:19-21​

I have with many words, Scriptural references, and logical thinking presented many examples and explanations to try present my point of view on "The Gospel" to people like yourself who reject it out of hand, but at least I have the courage to put it out there and defend it.

Your every knee jerk retort to my well-presented point of view has been the Theological equivalent of Mongo grunting Naaah-ahhh!!

Kinda not very courageous of you to not even attempt to defend your own "Greeked up Belief".

Let's try again....

I put my beliefs out there for all to ridicule...

This is your Belief that I am asking you to explain and defend. I don't think you will though and I know why...

Since you're not at all challenged...please help me by filling in the "for some" questions I have for each Salvation phase below:

Greek view = Christ crucified = Atonement (for some?) = Justified (for some?) = Sanctified (for some?) = Glorified (for some?)

I know you won't because you can't...it's a bridge too far!

I will be curious as to what kind of pretzeled twisted gobbledygook you patch together to make some semblance of sense of your skewed Salvation doctrine.

 

[Caveman]

So, according to your theory there has been no credible New Testament all these years? Where pray tell is this Hebrew NT you speak of, and who authored it?

The Greeked Gospel skews the New Covenant into a foreign, man‑centered construct. The evidence lies in who is seen as the determiner of salvation: in the Greek view, it is man; in the Hebraic view, it is the covenantal Father.

God speaks in spite of the Greek is more like it...He also speaks through a kids picture Bible but it's heavily redacted; can you still hear His voice, sure but there's a lot of missing information too.

You must know most Christians are conflicted and confused about their Salvation because the Geeked western Gospel view is dependent on my faith, my belief, my enduring loyalty ect that is the message!

I make the point that the Hebraic view is a totally different message because it is totally dependent on our Savior; that is the message (not my faith, my loyalty ect).

Atonement for all ungodly men = Justification = Sanctification = Glorification Romans 8:30

Salvation is His doing alone.

 

[Caveman]

So, according to your theory there has been no credible New Testament all these years? Where pray tell is this Hebrew NT you speak of, and who authored it?

The Greek Gospel skews the New Covenant into a foreign, man‑centered construct. The evidence lies in who is seen as the determiner of salvation: in the Greek view, it is man; in the Hebraic view, it is the covenantal Father.

God also speaks through a kids picture Bible but it's heavily redacted; can you still hear His voice, sure but there's a lot of missing information too.

You must know most Christians are conflicted and confused about their Salvation because the Greek western Gospel view is dependent on my faith, my belief, my enduring loyalty ect that is the message!

I make the point that the Hebraic view is a totally different message because it is totally dependent on our Savior; that is the message (not my faith, my loyalty ect).

Atonement for all ungodly men = Justification = Sanctification = Glorification Romans 8:30

Salvation is His doing alone.

Some of best teaching I have encountered over the years was from Messianic Jews. One was once a Rabbi. I thoroughly enjoy the background and idioms for context.

Jeff Benner is a great resource that and Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum is a great teacher with Hebraic insights as well

 

[Sipsey]

The Greeked Gospel skews the New Covenant into a foreign, man‑centered construct. The evidence lies in who is seen as the determiner of salvation: in the Greek view, it is man; in the Hebraic view, it is the covenantal Father.

God speaks in spite of the Greek is more like it...He also speaks through a kids picture Bible but it's heavily redacted; can you still hear His voice, sure but there's a lot of missing information too.

You must know most Christians are conflicted and confused about their Salvation because the Geeked western Gospel view is dependent on my faith, my belief, my enduring loyalty ect that is the message!

I make the point that the Hebraic view is a totally different message because it is totally dependent on our Savior; that is the message (not my faith, my loyalty ect).

Atonement for all ungodly men = Justification = Sanctification = Glorification Romans 8:30

Salvation is His doing alone.

Maybe you have read the wrong Greek expositors.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Your every knee jerk retort to my well-presented point of view

It's not well thought out. It's disjointed and makes no sense.

 

[Caveman]

Maybe you have read the wrong Greek expositors.

Good come back...what in specific do you disagree with that I posted above??

Also, since you obviously don't agree with my position...can you explain and defend yours so I can be enlightened?

Remember...this is your Belief that I am asking you to explain and defend. ..

Please help me by filling in the "for some" questions I have for each Salvation phase below:

Greek view = Christ crucified = Atonement (for some?) = Justified (for some?) = Sanctified (for some?) = Glorified (for some?)

 

[Caveman]

It's not well thought out. It's disjointed and makes no sense.

Then explain yours to me....

This is your Belief that I am asking you to explain and defend.

Since you're not at all challenged...please help me by filling in the "for some" questions I have for each Salvation phase below:

Greek view = Christ crucified = Atonement (for some?) = Justified (for some?) = Sanctified (for some?) = Glorified (for some?)

Just plug in your answers for each of the "Some ?" for each phase of Salvation...that's not disjointed it's straight forward...

I know you won't because you can't...it's a bridge too far!

I will be curious as to what kind of pretzeled twisted gobbledygook you patch together to make some semblance of sense of your skewed Salvation doctrine.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Since you're not at all challenged...please help me by filling in the "for some" questions I have for each Salvation phase below:

Greek view = Christ crucified = Atonement (for some?) = Justified (for some?) = Sanctified (for some?) = Glorified (for some?)

First off, there is no atonement; only reconciliation/justification. Atonement means to cover, which is what ancient Israel's sins were until the time of regeneration. Sins under the new covenant are removed completely. There is no sin in Christ, and those in Christ have no sin in God's eyes. Reconciliation is for all mankind if they wish to partake.

Sanctification and glorification are only for those in Christ.

 

[Sipsey]

Good come back...what in specific do you disagree with that I posted above??

Also, since you obviously don't agree with my position...can you explain and defend yours so I can be enlightened?

Remember...this is your Belief that I am asking you to explain and defend. ..

Please help me by filling in the "for some" questions I have for each Salvation phase below:

Greek view = Christ crucified = Atonement (for some?) = Justified (for some?) = Sanctified (for some?) = Glorified (for some?)

I believe in the OT that salvation was dependent upon an individual believing that God would send a Savior, and the proof was a life that mirrored that trust. After the cross, salvation is believing that God did send a Savior, and that belief results in a life reflective of the price paid by that Savior, The Christ Jesus. You can increase the verbiage and conflate your premise with an array of adjectives, but that is what I think it comes down to. In the old days of bowhunting, many of us used the acronym KISS. I think it still translates well for Christianity.