The Ten Commandments are the Covenant, did you know?

[TMS]

Yeah the truth, that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life seems to bother alot of people.

As the light He perfectly revealed the character of God. His life perfectly obeyed the 10 commandments. As our example He has shown us the way and we should follow His example...

If Jesus is the way the truth and the life, and that was perfectly obeying the 10 commandments, we should follow that example..

Take up the cross and follow Me, He said. it isn't easy to follow Jesus. Our fallen nature doesn't want to obey the commandments but we can if we die to self.

Mat 10:38-39 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

I want to fully follow my Lord and that means following the example He gave. The example of keeping all 10 of the commandments.
Not to gain ssalvation but because He gave His life for me.

 

[GWH]

GWH, what's happening here?

Hungerpain answering my questions is NOT happening.

 

[GWH]

As the light He perfectly revealed the character of God. His life perfectly obeyed the 10 commandments. As our example He has shown us the way and we should follow His example...

If Jesus is the way the truth and the life, and that was perfectly obeying the 10 commandments, we should follow that example..

Take up the cross and follow Me, He said. it isn't easy to follow Jesus. Our fallen nature doesn't want to obey the commandments but we can if we die to self.

Mat 10:38-39 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

I want to fully follow my Lord and that means following the example He gave. The example of keeping all 10 of the commandments.
Not to gain ssalvation but because He gave His life for me.

Actually, Jesus affirmed only the last six commandments and was accused of breaking those about the Sabbath.

 

[mailmandan]

So it comes down to that one commandment .... if this commandment was not in the 10 you could agree that the 10 commandments still apply today.

The 10 commandments under the old covenant of law were given to Israel. (Exodus 20:1-26) In verse 2, we read - I am the Lord your God, who brought YOU out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Who are YOU? The Israelites. Deuteronomy 5:15 - And remember that YOU were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought YOU out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore, the Lord your God commanded YOU to keep the Sabbath day.

But because of the one commandment that God gave at creation and said to remember you need to make all the 10 commandments void and reestablish the 9 others under the law of love.

God said for the Israelites to remember the sabbath day. Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel (Exodus 16:23, 29; 31:12-18; 35:1-3; Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3, 32; Numbers 15:32-36; 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13; Amos 8:5; Nehemiah 10:31) that is not binding on the Church/Christians under the New Covenant. (Colossians 2:16-17)

Exodus 31:12 - And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 13 “Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. 14 You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.

Now although God's rest on the seventh day (Genesis 2:3) did foreshadow a future sabbath law, there is no Biblical record of the sabbath being kept before the children of Israel left the land of Egypt. Nowhere in Scripture is there any hint that sabbath keeping was practiced from Adam to Moses. The word "sabbath" first appears in Exodus 16:23 - Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord has said: ‘Tomorrow is a sabbath rest, a holy sabbath to the Lord. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.

I simply see the 10 moral laws as always being part of the law of love and that if God knew that only 9 would be reiterated in the new covenant, I think He would have given only 9 moral commandments on stone.

The observance of the sabbath day was a sign of the old covenant and was not exclusively moral but also ceremonial for Israel. It was one of the shadows and holy days that were fulfilled in Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17) The detailed regulations of keeping the sabbath day under the old covenant of law were unique to the nation of Israel.

God is a God of order.

Yes, He is and He also replaced the old covenant with the new covenant. (2 Corinthians 3:6-9)

He placed the cerimonial laws in a different place to the moral laws. And wrote the 10 commandments with His own finger in stone.

The 4th commandment was not exclusively moral, but also ceremonial. In Leviticus 23 we see that the sabbath was a ceremonial law because it was listed among the feasts of the Lord that were part of Israel's ceremonial system. So, this grouping shows it was part of the ceremonial system, rather than exclusively a moral law applying to all people for all time.

Elsewhere in Exodus 31:16-17 and Ezekiel 20:12, 20 we see the sabbath as a sign of the Mosaic covenant specific to the nation of Israel. Here we see the sabbath is called a perpetual sign for the Israelites which emphasizes it as a sign of the Mosaic covenant between God and His people, Israel.

Deu 5:14

But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: .....

Who was God addressing here? Deuteronomy 5:1 - And Moses called all Israel, and said to them: "Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your hearing today, that you may learn them and be careful to observe them." 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with US in Horeb. 3 The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive.

Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Luk 6:5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

The Lord of the sabbath in the old testament is also the Lord of the sabbath in the new Testament..

Jesus is Lord of the sabbath

Yes, Jesus is Lord of the sabbath, and that statement was in response to the accusation by the Pharisees that Jesus' disciples were breaking the law regarding resting on the sabbath while going through the fields and plucking heads of grain. (Matthew 12:1-8; Mark 2:23-28; Luke 6:1-5)

Jesus responded by giving an example from the Old Testament in which David was once in need of food and was given consecrated bread that was only lawful for the priests to eat (1 Samuel 21:1-6). The bread served a practical need for David and his men, just as with Jesus and His disciples, the grain served a practical need. David and his men were not acting sinfully in eating the showbread, and neither were Jesus’ disciples by plucking heads of grain on the sabbath. Jesus concludes, "the Son of Man is Lord even of the sabbath." (Mark 2:27-28)

The sabbath was intended to help man and not burden man. In contrast with the agonizing, daily work as slaves in Egypt, the Israelites were commanded to take a day of rest each week under the Mosaic Law. The Pharisees had turned the sabbath into a burden by adding restrictions beyond what God’s law said. The disciples had not broken God’s law, they merely violated the Pharisees’ own legalistic, interpretation of the law.

 

[vassal]

Actually, Jesus affirmed only the last six commandments and was accused of breaking those about the Sabbath.

Not what is written.

 

[vassal]

Actually, Jesus affirmed only the last six commandments and was accused of breaking those about the Sabbath.

Jesus did not affirm only the last six commandments, and He was never a breaker of the Sabbath. He affirmed the entire Law, including the first four commandments, which deal with loving God. He said very plainly that He did not come to destroy the Law or the Prophets but to fulfill them, and that nothing in the law would pass away until heaven and earth pass away. He warned that anyone who breaks even the least commandment and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom. This shows He upheld the whole Law, not only part of it.

Jesus kept the first commandment when He said we must worship God and serve Him only. He kept the second because He never honored images and taught people to worship God in spirit and truth. He kept the third by honoring the Father’s name and teaching His followers to do the same. He kept the fourth, the Sabbath, because it was His custom to go into the synagogue on the Sabbath day. When He healed on the Sabbath, He was not breaking God’s commandment but rejecting human traditions that twisted the Sabbath. He said He is Lord of the Sabbath, and a person cannot be Lord of something he is breaking. He showed that doing good on the Sabbath is lawful and fits the purpose God gave for that day.

When asked about the greatest commandment, Jesus quoted the Torah and said we must love God with all our heart, soul, and mind. This command covers the first four commandments, because loving God means putting Him first, refusing idols, honoring His name, and keeping His holy day. The second commandment He named was to love our neighbor, which covers commandments five to ten. By giving both together, Jesus affirmed all ten as the foundation of true obedience.

The Ten Commandments are the covenant itself. God said so clearly when He declared His covenant and wrote the Ten Commandments on two tablets of stone. Stone shows permanence. If even one part is changed, the covenant is no longer the same covenant. God warned that no one should add to His words or take from them. Changing the Ten Commandments would weaken His law and lower His holiness, something no one has the right to do.

Jesus confirmed that the commandments remain the foundation for anyone who seeks eternal life. When asked what is needed for life, He answered that the commandments must be kept. All of this proves that the claim that Jesus affirmed only six commandments or broke the Sabbath is false. He honored all ten, taught their true meaning, lived them perfectly, and upheld them as the unchangeable covenant of God.

 

[mailmandan]

Are you teaching that we are released from keeping the 10 commandments because Jesus did? Are you saying we don't need to keep the 10 commandments because Jesus did?

Jesus kept the 10 commandments perfectly and Jesus was born under the law. (Galatians 4:4-5) The commandments we (the Church, the body of Christ) are the keep are listed in the new covenant. See post #133.

Are you saying we have no obligation to obey the law of God because of the imputed righteousness of Christ?

Not the law of works but the law of faith. (Romans 3:27-28) The law of Christ (1 Corinthians 9:21; Galatians 6:2) and not the law of Moses. We are not under the Mosaic law but under grace. (Romans 6:14)

Christ's imputed righteousness are not a cloak for us to hide sin and practice lawlessness and iniquity.

Who said it was? Just because believers are not under the law of Moses does not mean we are lawless. The new covenant is not a lawless covenant. Enough with that straw man argument.

At the start (the first post) the point was made the new covenant dose not exclude the 10 commandments.

The first post was wrong because the Church, the body of Christ is not obligated to observe the sabbath day. (Colossians 2:16-17) It was a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

They are very much part of the new covenant,
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

We are the house of Israel and the law should be written in our hearts.

All 10 of them.

"My laws" refer to God's commandments which are inscribed on the hearts of all believers. The new covenant contrasts the old covenant, which was based on eternal laws and ceremonies, and the New Testament scriptures indicates this includes the moral principles of the Decalogue and not the ceremonial laws of the old covenant, which the sabbath was a part of. The "sabbatismos" rest described in Hebrews 4:9 refers to a spiritual rest in Jesus Christ, who is the fulfillment of the sabbath day rest under the law.

Law and grace do not work in competition with each other but in perfect cooperation. The law points out sin, and grace saves from sin. The law is the will of God, and grace is the power to do the will of God. We do not obey the law in order to be saved but because we are saved.

The law does point out sin, and grace does save from sin through faith. We do not obey the law in order to be saved but because we are saved is correct. Just make sure you have the right law.
https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=7335...Y29tbWVudGFyaWVzL2hlYnJld3MvOC0xMC5odG0&ntb=1

It isn't because I have one foot in the new and one in the old, it is because I do not believe grace and works are opposed to each other, or that salvation has changed in any way.

It sounds to me like you still have one foot in the old covenant.

Grace and works go hand in hand with each other and the conditions for salvation have not changed.

Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise, grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise, work is no longer work. Salvation has always been through faith. It still sounds to me like you are flirting with salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works. Could just be semantics so I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

 

[GWH]

Not what is written.

I meant Jesus to say that reaffirmed all of the 10 except #4. Sorry.

 

[GWH]

Jesus did not affirm only the last six commandments, and He was never a breaker of the Sabbath. He affirmed the entire Law, including the first four commandments, which deal with loving God. He said very plainly that He did not come to destroy the Law or the Prophets but to fulfill them, and that nothing in the law would pass away until heaven and earth pass away. He warned that anyone who breaks even the least commandment and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom. This shows He upheld the whole Law, not only part of it.

Jesus kept the first commandment when He said we must worship God and serve Him only. He kept the second because He never honored images and taught people to worship God in spirit and truth. He kept the third by honoring the Father’s name and teaching His followers to do the same. He kept the fourth, the Sabbath, because it was His custom to go into the synagogue on the Sabbath day. When He healed on the Sabbath, He was not breaking God’s commandment but rejecting human traditions that twisted the Sabbath. He said He is Lord of the Sabbath, and a person cannot be Lord of something he is breaking. He showed that doing good on the Sabbath is lawful and fits the purpose God gave for that day.

When asked about the greatest commandment, Jesus quoted the Torah and said we must love God with all our heart, soul, and mind. This command covers the first four commandments, because loving God means putting Him first, refusing idols, honoring His name, and keeping His holy day. The second commandment He named was to love our neighbor, which covers commandments five to ten. By giving both together, Jesus affirmed all ten as the foundation of true obedience.

The Ten Commandments are the covenant itself. God said so clearly when He declared His covenant and wrote the Ten Commandments on two tablets of stone. Stone shows permanence. If even one part is changed, the covenant is no longer the same covenant. God warned that no one should add to His words or take from them. Changing the Ten Commandments would weaken His law and lower His holiness, something no one has the right to do.

Jesus confirmed that the commandments remain the foundation for anyone who seeks eternal life. When asked what is needed for life, He answered that the commandments must be kept. All of this proves that the claim that Jesus affirmed only six commandments or broke the Sabbath is false. He honored all ten, taught their true meaning, lived them perfectly, and upheld them as the unchangeable covenant of God.

Jesus affirmed only eternal moral law that may be summarized by His command to love everyone.

The 4th commandment was not reaffirmed but was part of the ceremonial or Levitical law that He fulfilled in spirit
although He was accused of breaking the letter of it.

 

[GWH]

I meant Jesus to say that reaffirmed all of the 10 except #4. Sorry.

For crying out loud! Did I type that or was there a glitch?! Let me try one more time:

I meant to say that Jesus/the NT reaffirmed all of the 10 as included in the eternal moral law of love except #4,
which was part of the Levitical law that Jesus fulfilled, thereby ending it and replacing it with the command
to serve the Lord every day.

 

[mailmandan]

It is sad but so many christian people claim that "we are under the New covenant" and use this as an excuse to forsake the 10 commandments.

There is nothing sad about Christians understanding that God has made the old covenant obsolete to legally put into place the new covenant. (2 Corinthians 3:6-9; Hebrews 8:6-13) The life of discipleship flows out of the new command, to love one another as He loved us (John 13:34), and the apostle Paul says that by bearing one another's burdens, we fulfill "law of Christ." (Galatians 6:2) So, love fulfills the law (Romans 13:8-10) and out of this single command comes other commands, including references for the moral aspect of 9 of the 10 commandments which are reiterated under the new covenant, yet the command to keep the sabbath day is not binding on Christians under the new covenant.

1. You shall have no other gods before Me. - Acts 14:15
2. You shall make no idols. - 1 John 5:21
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - James 2:7; James 5:12
4. Keep the sabbath day holy. - Not binding on the Church - Colossians 2:16-17
5. Honor your father and your mother. - Ephesians 6:1-2
6. You shall not murder. - Romans 13:9 10; 1 John 3:15
7. You shall not commit adultery. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
8. You shall not steal. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 4:28
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Romans 13:9-10; Colossians 3:9-10
10. You shall not covet. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 5:3

That is not about forsaking the 10 commandments altogether and embracing lawlessness as your continued straw man argument implies. What is really sad is when professing Christians turn keeping the sabbath day into a legalistic prescription for salvation for the body of Christ and end up teaching "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works." (Galatians 1:6-9)

The 10 commandments apply today.

Show us in the NT under the new covenant where the Church, the body of Christ is obligated to keep the sabbath day. If sabbath day observance is required today for Christians, then so would the burnt offerings that went along with them. (Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13) So no kindling a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath. (Exodus 35:3) Every man must remain in his place on the Sabbath. (Exodus 16:29) No trading. (Amos 8:5) No marketing. (Nehemiah 10:31; 13:15,19) These were commanded by God to Israel. (Exodus 35:1)

Exodus 35:1 - Then Moses assembled all the congregation of the sons of Israel, and said to them, “These are the things that the LORD has commanded you to do: 2. For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a holy day, a Sabbath of complete rest to the LORD; whoever does any work on it shall be put to death. 3. You shall not kindle a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day.” The congregation of THE SONS OF ISRAEL, God said to them.

If keeping the weekly sabbath day is still in effect today, then why don't Sabbatarians seek to obey ALL that the Lord commanded in regard to it? If keeping the weekly sabbath day is still in effect today, then according to Exodus 31:12-18; 35:1-3; and Numbers 15:32-36, anyone who profaned the Sabbath was put to death and any person who does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from his people. Who is going to enforce that today? The Jewish synagogue or perhaps the SDA church?

Since we do not live under a theocratic state as ancient Israel did under the old covenant of law, no Sabbatarian today can live consistently under these Mosaic regulations.

 

[GWH]

Yes, and because the NT does not affirm the Sabbath Law as it did the moral commands in the Ten Commandments,
one needs to discern the correct doctrine for Christians by considering the following Scriptures.

1. God rested from His work and rested on the seventh day and made it holy per Gen. 2:2-3.

2. Moses promulgated the Sabbath law as the 4th of the Ten Commandments in Exo. 20:8-11, cf. Lev. 19:3&30, Deut. 5:12-15.

3. Solomon builds a temple for burnt offerings on the Sabbath in 2Chron. 2:4.

4. Isaiah said those are blessed who keep the Sabbath in Isa. 56:2-6.

5. Jeremiah commands keeping the Sabbath holy in Jer. 17:21-27.

6. Ezekiel referred to the Sabbaths in Ezek. 20:12

7. Jesus declared he is Lord of the Sabbath and it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath in Matt. 12:1-12.

8. Jesus healed a crippled woman on the Sabbath in Luke 13:10-16.

If Jesus thought keeping the Sabbath was an important law, he would have affirmed it on these two occasions, but he did not specifically nullify it either, which jibes/harmonizes perfectly with Paul.

9. Paul taught that a person may rest on the Sabbath or not in Col. 2:16, Gal. 4:9-11 & Rom. 14:5.

10. Hebrews encourages Christians to enter God’s Sabbath rest by persevering faith in Heb.3:7-4:11.

The primary sin per the NT is transgression of GRFS (Gal. 3:1-14), and secondary sins are transgression of Christ’s law (John 13:34), which summarizes the OT moral laws (Matt. 22:37-40) affirmed by the NT (Matt. 5:17-48) and calls them the fruit of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22-23), which does NOT include all 613 laws of Moses, such as those pertaining to mildew and infectious disease in Lev. 14.

Jesus fulfilled/accomplished the 613 Mosaic laws (Matt. 5:17-19) and taught that righteousness must surpass/supersede that of the Pharisees (Matt. 5:20) including Paul (Acts 22:3-5), to whom Jesus appeared, saying “Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you… I am sending you to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.”

Paul did just that when he preached to the folks (both Jews and Gentiles per ACcts14:1-5) in Galatia (Acts 13:49), encouraging them to remain true to the faith (Acts 14:22), which he reiterated in his epistle, beginning “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel, which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ… But if anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!” (Gal. 1:3-9) Paul stated the true gospel thusly, “I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ [the HS] lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved he and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness [holiness] could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

Paul may also have written Hebrews, which warns against not entering God’s Sabbath rest by not holding firmly until the end the confidence/faith in Christ (Heb. 3:14, 4:2). Heb. 7:11-10:1 begins as follows: “If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood, why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also… The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless, for the law made nothing perfect, and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God. Such a high priest truly meets our need… the Son, who has been made perfect forever, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven… The ministry of Jesus has received is superior to the old one [of Moses], since the NC is established on better promises… God said, ‘The days are coming when I will make a new covenant’ [Jer. 31:31-34]. It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts… By calling this covenant ‘new’, he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.”

In this passage the Lord says that the OC including the Sabbath commandment is obsolete/abrogated by the Gospel of Christ. Need GW say more?

 

[Soyeong]

"I agree with what you say, but the two greatest commandments leave out important details that God insists on, and with good reason. If these details are not known, they will not be practiced.

Agreed. The greatest two commandments are much easier said than done, so thankfully God gave us the rest of the 611 commandments in order to flesh out what it looks like to correctly obey them. Someone who was correctly living in obedience to the greatest two commandments would be indistinguishable from someone who was correctly living in obedience to the rest of God’s commandments because they would both be following the same example that Jesus set for us to follow. Moreover, in the way to obeying the greatest commandment in Deuteronomy 6:4-7 is essentially by being zealous for teaching the Torah.

For example, the Sabbath, the command to make no images, and other points. We must remember that the Ten Commandments were inside the Ark of the Covenant. This is very important. The rest of the law of Moses was placed beside the Ark. Those laws were part of the covenant for the Jews at that time, yes, but God never called the law of Moses itself the covenant.

The Bible does not make a big deal out of where the commandments are placed or state that there is theological significance to it. The five principles of the Ten Commandments are fleshed out in the other commandments.

What about the Gentiles? Most will not follow the Ten Commandments. They say it is too hard or not necessary. And what about the rest of the law of Moses? Do we really think Gentiles would follow all of that? Many people today do not even accept the Ten Commandments, even though God Himself declared them to be His covenant. Most of the law of Moses cannot be kept today, so what should we really teach? Jesus was clear that if we want to enter into life, we must keep the commandments. He was speaking of the Ten Commandments.

It is by the Law of Moses that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so the who point of spreading the Gospel to Gentiles calling for repentance from our sins is to lead Gentiles to obey the Law of Moses.

And what about the Jerusalem council in Acts? They only kept a few parts of the law of Moses for the Gentile believers, and this was decided by the apostles themselves under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The Ten Commandments, which God called the covenant, are the foundation.

While it is possible for someone to interpret Acts 15 as the Jerusalem Council ruling that Gentile followers of Christ don't need to follow over 99% of what he taught his followers to follow, I don't think that it is correct to do that. The issue that the Jerusalem Council was discussing was whether salvation is by circumcision or by grace, not whether followers of Christ should follow what he taught. The Spirit does not have the role of leading us away from following the Law of God, but just the opposite (Ezekiel 36:26-27). In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God.

But I also understand that Christ said nothing of the Law would pass away. So I know that when the New Covenant is fully put into place by God at Jesus’ second coming, things will change. Scripture shows this clearly, beginning with Jeremiah. Jesus established the New Covenant by His death on the cross, as He announced at the last supper. He also said in a parable:

'The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field. It is the smallest of all seeds, but when it grows it becomes the greatest of herbs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and rest in its branches.'

The kingdom is growing. The seed is planted. It is our work to water this seed with the truth so it can grow.

Blessings, brother in Christ. Continue the good work."

The reason why Jesus established the New Covenant was not in order to nullify anything that he spent his ministry teaching or so that we could continue to have the same lawlessness that cause the New Covenant to be needed in the first place, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel 36:26-27).

 

[pinebeach]

As the light He perfectly revealed the character of God. His life perfectly obeyed the 10 commandments. As our example He has shown us the way and we should follow His example...

If Jesus is the way the truth and the life, and that was perfectly obeying the 10 commandments, we should follow that example..

Take up the cross and follow Me, He said. it isn't easy to follow Jesus. Our fallen nature doesn't want to obey the commandments but we can if we die to self.

Mat 10:38-39 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

I want to fully follow my Lord and that means following the example He gave. The example of keeping all 10 of the commandments.
Not to gain ssalvation but because He gave His life for me.

And you did not understand my reply. What part does the Holy Spirit play? What is He busy doing while people are nose deep in the OT commandments.

The big flaw that people who believe as do you, and which comes up again and again in any conversation that tries to include commandment keeping as something that shows how much we are 'worthy' of salvation, is the fact that it throws shade on God's gift through Jesus who needs no help whatsoever from us. Some people will go so far as to say that those who understand we cannot keep the commandments, think that we are free to sin. OF COURSE NOT!

How do you perceive 'walking in the Spirit' as we are told to do in the NT? What does that mean to you? Are the Israelites ever told to walk in the Spirit with the commandments or all the laws? Or was their walk totally in the flesh? How are believers to walk today after accepting Christ? Are we still observing animal sacrifice? Perhaps brush up on OT followers of God and how they had to observe the law and the thousands of offerings that were given before thinking that you somehow have a superior view with regards to 'keeping' what no one in the history of forever has managed to do.

 

[pinebeach]

6Now, however, Jesus has received a much more excellent ministry, just as the covenant He mediates is better and is founded on better promises. 7For if that first covenant had been without fault, no place would have been sought for a second. 8But God found fault with the people and said:

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,

when I will make a new covenant

with the house of Israel

and with the house of Judah.

9It will not be like the covenant

I made with their fathers

when I took them by the hand

to lead them out of the land of Egypt,

because they did not abide by My covenant,

and I disregarded them,

declares the Lord.

10For this is the covenant I will make

with the house of Israel

after those days,

declares the Lord.

I will put My laws in their minds

and inscribe them on their hearts.

And I will be their God,

and they will be My people.

11No longer will each one teach his neighbor or his brother,

saying, ‘Know the Lord,’

because they will all know Me,

from the least of them to the greatest.

12For I will forgive their iniquities

and will remember their sins no more.”b

13By speaking of a new covenant,c He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Hebrews 8

 

[pinebeach]

As the light He perfectly revealed the character of God. His life perfectly obeyed the 10 commandments. As our example He has shown us the way and we should follow His example...

If Jesus is the way the truth and the life, and that was perfectly obeying the 10 commandments, we should follow that example..

Take up the cross and follow Me, He said. it isn't easy to follow Jesus. Our fallen nature doesn't want to obey the commandments but we can if we die to self.

Mat 10:38-39 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

I want to fully follow my Lord and that means following the example He gave. The example of keeping all 10 of the commandments.
Not to gain ssalvation but because He gave His life for me.

Can you follow Jesus to the cross and die for your sins? Be careful in what you say because Jesus died to give us the New Covenant. When He rose from the dead, He did not do so in order to make the commandments 'special'.

Our fallen nature doesn't want to obey the commandments but we can if we die to self.

What particular animal do you sacrifice for an instance in which you do sin? Are you not aware that if you do not keep the entire law with perfection you are guilty of breaking ALL of it? That, is in the Bible so you can follow up and hopefully come to the understanding Jesus died in your place BECAUSE the law is perfect and none of us can keep it.

6Now, however, Jesus has received a much more excellent ministry, just as the covenant He mediates is better and is founded on better promises. 7For if that first covenant had been without fault, no place would have been sought for a second. 8But God found fault with the people and said:

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,

when I will make a new covenant

with the house of Israel

and with the house of Judah.

9It will not be like the covenant

I made with their fathers

when I took them by the hand

to lead them out of the land of Egypt,

because they did not abide by My covenant,

and I disregarded them,

declares the Lord.

10For this is the covenant I will make

with the house of Israel

after those days,

declares the Lord.

I will put My laws in their minds

and inscribe them on their hearts.

And I will be their God,

and they will be My people.

11No longer will each one teach his neighbor or his brother,

saying, ‘Know the Lord,’

because they will all know Me,

from the least of them to the greatest.

12For I will forgive their iniquities

and will remember their sins no more.”

13By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Get that? The OT law is now obsolete. Why are you trying to resurrect the law when Jesus put it to death?


For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. Romans 10:4

Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. Gal. 3:23

by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, Eph. 2:15

Jesus is the END of the law. Stop trying to keep commandments. They do not save you. We are righteous before God because of Jesus; not our sad efforts to try and take Jesus place by attempts at perfection.

 

[Aaron56]

The Law (including the 10 Commandments) was an arrangement of conciliation: an impossible standard but it kept the Israelites alive, gave them a template for jurisprudence, and general standards of society.

It was never designed to reconcile men to God: as holy beings with God's image and likeness.

"The law was added because of transgressions."

But Jesus purchased, by His own blood, the way of reconciling man to God - to bring man back to God's original intent.

We see this in marriage which allows for us to be both in Christ and the bride of Christ.

Woman was taken from the man (Adam) when his side was opened.
A new man, the last Adam, also had His side opened.
This is the new and living way we, as the bride, are reinserted into our Husband. We then become one with Christ. “The two become one flesh” and “We are His flesh and His bones.”

Christ, alone, is our propitiation for sin:

"...being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness.."

and further...

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law."

David wrote: "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin." Even David saw the day of Christ by which men would be saved. In Christ, sin is not imputed to us. We may simply confess it, having faith that the propitiation of Christ's death is enough to cover the cost.

 

[vassal]

I meant Jesus to say that reaffirmed all of the 10 except #4. Sorry.

why do you pick on the fourth and remove it? is it because you do not like it personally? are we allowed to choose which commandments we keep and which we ignore? Jesus never gave anyone that right.

Jesus honoured the Sabbath and kept it. It was His custom to be in the synagogue on the Sabbath (Luke 4:16). He taught that doing good on the Sabbath is lawful (Matthew 12:12). He said He is Lord of the Sabbath (Matthew 12:8). Paul also kept the Sabbath many times when teaching both Jews and Gentiles (Acts 13:42–44, Acts 17:2). There is no verse that says the Sabbath of the Ten Commandments cannot be kept. There is no verse where Jesus cancels it.

There are many different sabbaths in the law of Moses. These are yearly feast days and special rest days. Paul spoke of these extra sabbaths in his letters (Colossians 2:16), but these are not the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. The fourth commandment comes from creation itself (Genesis 2:2–3) and was written by God’s own hand on stone.

The Ten Commandments are one single unit, the Covenant. God said, “He declared to you His covenant, the Ten Commandments, and wrote them on two tablets of stone” (Deuteronomy 4:13). No one can change them, touch them, or reduce them. They are permanent and eternal because they reveal God’s character. These commandments were placed inside the ark of the covenant (Deuteronomy 10:1–5). The other sabbaths and laws of Moses were written by Moses and placed beside the ark, not inside (Deuteronomy 31:24–26). This shows the difference in authority.

So removing the fourth commandment breaks the unity of God’s covenant. Jesus kept it, His disciples kept it, and nothing in Scripture gives permission to erase it. it is clearly written in scripture that the commandments are not a burden. and that the Holy spirit will teach us all things and will help with all of these and more so we can keep the commandments.

 

[vassal]

The Law (including the 10 Commandments) was an arrangement of conciliation: an impossible standard but it kept the Israelites alive, gave them a template for jurisprudence, and general standards of society.

It was never designed to reconcile men to God: as holy beings with God's image and likeness.

"The law was added because of transgressions."

But Jesus purchased, by His own blood, the way of reconciling man to God - to bring man back to God's original intent.

We see this in marriage which allows for us to be both in Christ and the bride of Christ.

Woman was taken from the man (Adam) when his side was opened.
A new man, the last Adam, also had His side opened.
This is the new and living way we, as the bride, are reinserted into our Husband. We then become one with Christ. “The two become one flesh” and “We are His flesh and His bones.”

Christ, alone, is our propitiation for sin:

"...being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness.."

and further...

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law."

David wrote: "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin." Even David saw the day of Christ by which men would be saved. In Christ, sin is not imputed to us. We may simply confess it, having faith that the propitiation of Christ's death is enough to cover the cost.

Why are you so against the Commandments God, Jesus and Paul say are good just and we must keep them.

You said the Law, including the Ten Commandments, was “an impossible standard.” That statement itself fights against the words of God and the words of Jesus. God never gave His people an impossible law. He said the exact opposite.

God said plainly: “This commandment is not too hard for you, nor is it far off… the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it” (Deuteronomy 30:11-16).
If God Himself says it is not too hard, then calling it “impossible” is accusing God of lying.

You also said the Law “was never designed to reconcile men to God,” but Jesus says that keeping the commandments is part of entering life. His own words are clear: “If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matthew 19:17).
Jesus did not say: “Ignore the commandments because they cannot help you.”
He pointed directly to them as the path of obedience for those who seek eternal life.

You say the Law was given only as a temporary “arrangement of conciliation,” but Jesus says the Law stands until heaven and earth pass away. “Till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle will pass from the law” (Matthew 5:18). Heaven and earth are still here. The standard has not changed.

You say Jesus came only to replace the Law. Jesus said He came not to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it and establish it in the hearts of His followers. Fulfilling the Law means filling it full, showing its true meaning, not removing it. He said the one who breaks the least commandment will be the least in the kingdom (Matthew 5:19). You treat the whole Law as the least, and you teach others to do the same.

You claim the commandments cannot bring a person close to God, but Jesus said those who love Him keep His commandments (John 14:15, John 14:21). He ties love, obedience, and relationship together. You separate them. Jesus says obedience reveals true love; you say obedience has nothing to do with relationship with God. That is not the teaching of Christ.

You say sin is no longer imputed, but Jesus says sin still separates. He warns believers, not unbelievers, that if they continue in sin they will be thrown out like a branch without fruit (John 15:1–6). He says only those who do the will of His Father will enter the kingdom (Matthew 7:21–23). These are His words, not Moses’ and not anyone else’s. To claim sin no longer matters is to directly contradict the Lord Himself.

You also use marriage as an example, yet forget the basic teaching Jesus gave in that same subject: “What God has joined together, let not man separate.” You are separating obedience from faith, covenant from relationship, and holiness from grace. Jesus never separated these.

Your argument breaks the unity of God’s covenant. The Ten Commandments are the covenant given by God (Deuteronomy 4:13). God wrote them with His own finger and placed them inside the ark. Jesus lived them, taught them, and sealed their authority with His own words. Removing them tears down what God Himself raised up.

Jesus died for our sins, yes, but He did not die to erase the commandments. He died because we broke them. His blood cleanses the past; His Spirit strengthens us today; His commandments guide us forward. This is the harmony Jesus taught.

So your teaching does not agree with Jesus. It weakens His words, removes His warnings, and replaces His call to obedience with a false safety. If Jesus says the commandments stand, no one has the right to say otherwise.

 

[vassal]

Agreed. The greatest two commandments are much easier said than done, so thankfully God gave us the rest of the 611 commandments in order to flesh out what it looks like to correctly obey them. Someone who was correctly living in obedience to the greatest two commandments would be indistinguishable from someone who was correctly living in obedience to the rest of God’s commandments because they would both be following the same example that Jesus set for us to follow. Moreover, in the way to obeying the greatest commandment in Deuteronomy 6:4-7 is essentially by being zealous for teaching the Torah.


The Bible does not make a big deal out of where the commandments are placed or state that there is theological significance to it. The five principles of the Ten Commandments are fleshed out in the other commandments.


It is by the Law of Moses that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so the who point of spreading the Gospel to Gentiles calling for repentance from our sins is to lead Gentiles to obey the Law of Moses.


While it is possible for someone to interpret Acts 15 as the Jerusalem Council ruling that Gentile followers of Christ don't need to follow over 99% of what he taught his followers to follow, I don't think that it is correct to do that. The issue that the Jerusalem Council was discussing was whether salvation is by circumcision or by grace, not whether followers of Christ should follow what he taught. The Spirit does not have the role of leading us away from following the Law of God, but just the opposite (Ezekiel 36:26-27). In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God.


The reason why Jesus established the New Covenant was not in order to nullify anything that he spent his ministry teaching or so that we could continue to have the same lawlessness that cause the New Covenant to be needed in the first place, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel 36:26-27).

I just wonder at the rest of the laws of Moses, must gentiles keep them can you prove gentiles have to? what about the Jerusalem council? I have asked you this before alas, did not see a reply, apologies if you did.. I do appreciate your knowledge of scripture and will seriously consider what you reply and await for the answer. My knowledge of scripture if not sufficient for me to confirm what we need from the law of Moses.

Blessings