Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Magenta]

Why do you ask? Adam was not created with a fallen nature. He brought that upon himself!

Romans 5 verse 12 Ephesians 2 verse 3 Just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned. We were by nature children of wrath.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

Paul speaks of the inability of the natural man. Ascribing it all to Calvin is dishonest of you and your ilk.

But it seems we can expect nothing better form you guys...

You reject Scripture.

Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. If they are not indwelt with the
Holy Spirit of God they are in the realm of the flesh opposed to the Spiritual things of God.

Furthermore, nobody can know God unless Jesus chooses to reveal Him to that person.

So much for free will!

Again, you have to redefine what uncircumcised heart and ears means in light of the context. I see circumcision of the heart in the Old Testament as one being born again. In the NT, being born again happens AFTER one already has faith (which takes place under God's enlightenment, drawing, and conviction, etcetera). Calvinists see being born again as happening before one has faith. So naturally you must ignore the part about how these Jews resisting the Holy Spirit. Again, this scenario makes no sense in the Calvinistic worldview. This is just something you will have to deal with someday.



....

 

[Magenta]

So naturally you must ignore the part about how these Jews resisted the Holy Spirit.

That you keep insisting this is nuts. The natural man resists God. How blind are you to this fact, really????

That you pretend it is not a fact just shows how ignorant of Bible truth you really are.

When will you accept, as a child, the plainly spoken Scriptures on this?

Those given to Jesus come to Him. Period.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

Maybe that's because your point was inaccurate, just like your view of Scripture. . . .

You are going to have to do better than that.
You actually have to prove WHY what I said was incorrect with Scripture.
But is that going to happen?
Most likely not.



....

 

[Rufus]

No. Paul says:

“that they might be saved”

The word “might” expresses a real possibility that was offered. It does not describe a predetermined outcome in which the elect are guaranteed to be saved and the non-elect never could have been.

Paul uses “might” in the same conditional sense throughout Scripture. It means that salvation was made possible and available, but was rejected by this group.

However, you, the Calvinist, and the Anti-Free Will Proponent turn “might” into “will” for the elect and “never could” for the non-elect. That destroys the plain reading. The Elect in Calvinism cannot be said that they might be saved. According to Calvinism, the Elect are guaranteed salvation and there is no “might” about it. And in the upside-down world of Calvinism, the same holds true for the Non-Elect. There is no “might be saved” for the Non-Elect, because they never had a real chance at salvation. God never elected them for salvation at any point. The only scenario where “might” works in this verse is if salvation is conditional rather than unconditional.


Here is an example in the form of a story:

The Lost Path of the Kings

Jack Moore, Sarah Ward, and Devin Locke were seasoned Bible archaeologists who had spent years studying ancient inscriptions across the Middle East. Their latest discovery brought them deep beneath the ruins of an ancient Judean fortress. The chamber walls were covered in intricate carvings, some genuine, some deliberately deceptive.

After carefully comparing symbols on the walls with clues etched into the floor, Jack and Sarah decoded the authentic message.

Jack read it aloud.
“He who follows the true instruction might live. He who trusts the false inscription shall surely fall.”

They examined the stone floor. Some tiles bore the true symbol they had identified. Others displayed a nearly identical false marking created to mislead intruders.

Jack turned to Sarah.
“If we decoded this correctly,” he said quietly, “it might save us.”

Sarah nodded, and together they stepped onto the stones with the true symbol, moving with cautious precision.

A moment later Devin Locke entered the chamber. Devin was not only a colleague but a friend. He trusted Jack and Sarah, and he immediately recognized that they had found the safe path. He also understood that he had the exact same opportunity to follow them.

Then he saw it.

A golden goblet resting on a stone just off the true path. It was the artifact he had chased for most of his career, the one theory he had defended, the one discovery he longed to make more than any other. To Devin, this goblet was personal. It represented years of study, passion, and sacrifice.

He hesitated between two real possibilities.
He thought to himself, "Do I stick to the safe path and be with my friends?"
Or should I take the risk and achieve my life's work?

Jack called to him.
“Devin, follow us. You can make it across.”

Sarah added, her voice urgent.
“You know which symbols are genuine. Come with us.”

Devil heard them, but their words felt far away. Devin was thinking he could do both. So, he studied the floor carefully, trying to work out a way to reach the goblet without abandoning the safe path. The tile beneath his right foot bore the true symbol. He trusted that stone. He trusted the inscription. And in his mind, as long as he kept the majority of his weight on it, he would not trigger anything dangerous.

“I can do this,” he murmured.
“If my main footing stays on the correct stone, I should be fine. I just need a little balance from this one.”

Slowly, he extended his other foot toward the neighboring tile marked with the false inscription. He believed that touching it lightly—just the edge of his foot—would not matter, that the ancient mechanism would only react if he stepped off fully.

But the engineers of the old kingdom had not built their traps so generously.

The instant even the smallest part of Devin’s foot settled onto the false-marked stone, the chamber responded.
A sharp crack echoed beneath him.
The tile dropped like a sprung trapdoor.

Jack reached out in a desperate reflex.
Sarah cried out his name.

But the collapse was immediate, unstoppable.

Devin Locke plunged into the abyss below.

For a long moment, Jack and Sarah stood frozen, the echo of falling stone fading into a terrible stillness. Sarah covered her mouth as tears welled in her eyes. Jack wrapped an arm around her shoulders, steadying her as the dust slowly settled back to the floor.

Neither spoke. The weight of what had just happened pressed against both of them. Devin had been their colleague, their friend, a man who had walked beside them through deserts, ruins, and discoveries. He had stood on the brink of safety, the same chance they had, yet stepped the wrong way.

Sarah leaned into Jack’s chest, her voice trembling.
“I wish he had followed us…”

Jack closed his eyes.
“He could have. He truly could have.”

They stood together in the quiet emptiness of the chamber, letting the reality settle. Then, without rushing, they continued along the true symbols, honoring the gravity of the moment. They reached the treasure vault, not with celebration, but with the sober understanding that life and loss can hinge on a single decision.


Meaning of “Might”:

The same decoded instruction lay before all three Bible archaeologists.
Jack and Sarah accepted it fully, keeping their feet entirely on the stones marked with the true symbol.
Devin also had complete access to that same truth. He understood the markings, trusted the decoding, and knew which stones were safe.

But instead of committing to the true path, he attempted to hold to it partially while reaching toward something else. He believed he could keep most of his footing on the right symbol while letting only a small part of his foot rest on the false one. That single divided step cost him the path that might have saved him.

“Might” in the inscription meant a genuine possibility, not a fixed outcome.
Those who stayed on the true symbols might live because safety depended on their full adherence to the instruction, not a partial or divided response.

Devin lost what was available to him not because he lacked access or ability, but because he did not remain with what he knew was true.

This illustrates the core idea in 2 Thessalonians 2:10.
The offer of truth is real.
The possibility of salvation is real.
But a person must receive that truth wholeheartedly rather than turn aside, even partially, to something else that draws the heart away. God wants us, but we must embrace the love of the truth continually and completely.

Sadly, there are many believers who will be shocked in the end, not because they lacked access to truth, but because they did not hold to it with their whole heart. I wish with all sincerity that none of them would be caught off guard in that day by taking the wrong step in this life. In Christ, I love them deeply and desire only what is good and true for them.
......

Post for us the conditions in the unilateral New Covenant that believers in this age are required to fulfill. Besides, those in 2Thes 2:10 do not love the truth because there is no godly love in them to love God or his truth. And there's no love in them because their hearts were uncircumcised by God.

 

[sawdust]

To suggest that He wants/desires all to be saved but is unable to pull it off is even worse.

Why? You want Him to be a dictator? "We have ways of making you believe. mwhahahaha"

Why would or should He save anyone who has no love for Him when given the opportunity (by grace) to reveal their true desires?

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

That you keep insisting this is nuts. The natural man resists God. How blind are you to this fact, really????

That you pretend it is not a fact just shows how ignorant of Bible truth you really are.

When will you accept, as a child, the plainly spoken Scriptures on this?

You just do not understand what is going on here. Why would God make any effort to try and reach the Jews if, according to your view, the Jews would resist God? If they are unregenerate in this life or part of the Non Elect, then God would not bother with them, and the Holy Spirit would not experience any resistance from the Jews. In the world of Calvinism, if they were the Elect, no such resistance would ever take place. It would be like the Borg from Star Trek First Contact. The Borg would say to those who resist, "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated," and then they would become mindless Borg drones in the hive mind collective. This is exactly how the god of Calvinism operates. There is no resistance. Resistance is futile and would not even happen because he is an all powerful being in their system.

Granted, I believe God is an all powerful being, as well. The difference is that I do not believe He is unjust and forces some to be saved and others to not be saved against their wills.



....

 

[Genez]

Which is provided by grace through faith - not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
I simply cannot understand how anyone could read this, and yet claim, I DID IT MYSELF!.
Yes Salvation is a gift but the faith to believe was also a gift. . . .

Can anyone in their right mind boast that he is better than someone else?
For accepting from a multi-billionaire, a million dollars?
A multi-billionaire who just walked into a room full of people and began offering a million dollars to everyone in the same room,
who were people from all walks of life?

What merit can he boast of, for simply accepting the money?

Likewise, God does not see someone as special when he believes in Him.
He sees it simply as the sane thing to do.
There was no merit on the part of the one who received the gift.

All the merit resides in the one giving the gift.

 

[sawdust]

This doctrine hardens people because the doctrine itself is very harsh, with a god who only favors some for salvation, and then because

of the backlash they receive they harden themselves, it is a real challenge for the truth to penetrate their soul and to recognize it is

a very false system made up of a patchwork of proof texts out of context.

They do not care and/ or they are blind to it, they want to protect their status as uniquely created and chosen for salvation.

What comes to mind when you think of this type of teaching?

Actually it reminds me of the god of Islam. Supposedly the merciful one yet, either convert or die.

 

[Rufus]

That you keep insisting this is nuts. The natural man resists God. How blind are you to this fact, really????

That you pretend it is not a fact just shows how ignorant of Bible truth you really are.

When will you accept, as a child, the plainly spoken Scriptures on this?

Those given to Jesus come to Him. Period.

And not only what you wrote is true but God also resists and detests the proud of heart! IOW, the proud are not on God's love radar and this proves fatal to them since God's love is what moves him to save his people by his precious and effectual grace.

 

[Rufus]

Can anyone in their right mind boast that he is better than someone else?
For accepting from a multi-billionaire, a million dollars?
A multi-billionaire who just walked into a room full of people and began offering a million dollars to everyone in the same room,
who were people from all walks of life?

What merit can he boast of, for simply accepting the money?

Likewise, God does not see someone as special when he believes in Him.
He sees it simply as the sane thing to do.
There was no merit on the part of the one who received the gift.

All the merit resides in the one giving the gift.

Well...I guess God didn't see anything special in his only Begotten Son, who faithfully relied upon and trusted his Father -- even unto the obedience of the Cross?

And if the the adopted sons and daughters of God don't have anything over unbelievers and God loves both groups equally, then how could Paul have written what he did in Rom 8:28-29. God most definitely does not work all things for the good of those who hate Him.

 

[Magenta]

And not only what you wrote is true but God also resists and detests the proud of heart! IOW, the proud are not on God's love
radar and this proves fatal to them since God's love is what moves him to save his people by his precious and effectual grace.

They have to make fake points to debate us on these Scripture Truths.

All under the guise of their maggot infested beard of CDS!

It gets ridiculous. He also seems to dispute what Jesus said.

Those given to Him, come. Only those He chooses to reveal the Father, know Him. He saves Whom He chooses.

NOT according to the will or desire or effort of the flesh, but according to God's good pleasure.

NOT because of anything we have done. This is all well laid-out in Scripture.

I wonder how deep B_H's denial is...

 

[Blue155]

The Calvinistic belief of God has man to be born totally depraved..dead in sin..has to use a miracle in them in order for them to have the ability to seek…has them not being able to resist His will/grace…has already decided before time the individual who He’s going to regenerate…doesn’t have Jesus to give His blood for all, because He doesn’t want all to be saved by the blood..and doesn’t allow them to fall from the faith so much as to be lost..but if they do, they were deemed as never the elect, the chosen, the regenerate to begin with…which means no one knows in the belief of Calvinism who actually has been chosen. Then, the process has to start all over…which would mean per Calvinism…God has eternally decreed to have to start over with the choosing, electing, regenerating, etc.

 

[Rufus]

Yeah but he could give the new nature to everyone and save everyone which is what he wants but he doesn't because then he couldn't show the world how glorious he is by only saving some and showing the others to be the horrible people they are even though the ones he did save were also horrible people but got a new nature so they wouldn't be horrible anymore and be different from the ones that he didn't give a new nature too even though he could so they too could be the redeemed joyfully and thankfully and lovingly praising God for his gracious gifts that he didn't want to give them.

Oh...you're going to play the woulda, shoulda, coulda game? God doesn't desire that any of his elect should perish (2Pet 3:9). There's no passage in scripture that says that God desires all sinful mankind to be saved.

 

[Genez]

Calvinists choose to remain biblical illiterates.

They freely choose to be...

For they like the way it makes them feel to accept TULIP while seeing their inferiors not able to think up to their standards.

 

[Genez]

The Calvinistic belief of God has man to be born totally depraved..dead in sin..has to use a miracle in them in order for them to have the ability to seek…has them not being able to resist His will/grace…has already decided before time the individual who He’s going to regenerate…doesn’t have Jesus to give His blood for all, because He doesn’t want all to be saved by the blood..and doesn’t allow them to fall from the faith so much as to be lost..but if they do, they were deemed as never the elect, the chosen, the regenerate to begin with…which means no one knows in the belief of Calvinism who actually has been chosen. Then, the process has to start all over…which would mean per Calvinism…God has eternally decreed to have to start over with the choosing, electing, regenerating, etc.

Depraved? Yes.

Totally depraved? No.
That would leave God with nothing to save.

 

[cv5]

They have to make fake points to debate us on these Scripture Truths.

All under the guise of their maggot infested beard of CDS!

It gets ridiculous. He also seems to dispute what Jesus said.

Those given to Him, come. Only those He chooses to reveal the Father, know Him. He saves Whom He chooses.

NOT according to the will or desire or effort of the flesh, but according to God's good pleasure.

NOT because of anything we have done. This is all well laid-out in Scripture.

I wonder how deep B_H's denial is...

No, you've got that all wrong. Every point of that snore-worthy recitation has already been debunked, discredited and extinguished.

 

[Genez]

Well...I guess God didn't see anything special in his only Begotten Son, who faithfully relied upon and trusted his Father -- even unto the obedience of the Cross?

And if the the adopted sons and daughters of God don't have anything over unbelievers and God loves both groups equally, then how could Paul have written what he did in Rom 8:28-29. God most definitely does not work all things for the good of those who hate Him.

Too bad that can not address what you were reacting to.

 

[OLDBUTNEW]

ah dont worry bro,

I've decided I'm having to much of a head ache, trying to reason with people.

So I'm deciding to give up with the people in trying to reason with.

It's been really disturbing to be honest.

I think there starting to effect me as well now.

Anyhow take care mate.

Yes, I know exactly what you mean, Bro; I'll be doing the same thing; and yes, it is disturbing: I agree!

Please take good care my dear mate, and talk with you again soon.

Douglas

 

[Blue155]

If the elect fall away and were never the elect, then how would anyone know if God chose or elected them? And if He did and they fall away..then would they have to be “chosen again”? Which would mean His eternal decree has Him “starting the process over”.

So, they get chosen again. Well, what if they abandon the faith again? Does that mean they weren’t the elect once more? Does that mean God is gonna have to start over on choosing them once again? And around and around we go.