The Ten Commandments are the Covenant, did you know?

[GWH]

hey Araon56, still waiting for you to tell me what is the new and old covenant are and what they contain, no answer yet did you forget? I did not. please add verses to make your point.

Still waiting on you to tell us why you do not believe that in Hebrews 7:12-10:1 Jesus inspired Paul to write about a new covenant with Jesus as the high priest (not so much as a replacement but by way of superseding or updating to eliminate a deficiency).

Did you forget my suggestion that you update your deficient bottom lines by adding the following?:

"The former regulation is set aside... and Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant." (Hebrews 7:18a & 22b)

 

[vassal]

In Hebrews 7:12-10:1 Jesus inspired Paul to write about a new covenant with Jesus as the high priest.
May I suggest adding the following to your bottom lines?:

"The former regulation is set aside... and Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant." (Hebrews 7:18a & 22b)

I agree but these verses are hard to understand for many and I want the text to be clear let me explain; Many people read Hebrews 7:18 and think it speaks against the Ten Commandments, but that is not what the verse means. Hebrews 7:18 says, “For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness.” The “former commandment” here is the command that established the Levitical priesthood with animal sacrifices, earthly priests, and temple rituals. That whole system was temporary and could never give eternal life. It could never cleanse the heart. It only pointed forward to the One who would come. People think it speaks of the Ten Commandments because the writing style of Hebrews compresses many ideas together and speaks about the law of Moses as a whole, but the context shows the focus is on the priesthood and the sacrifices. The weakness was not God’s moral law. The weakness was in the animal system that could not take away sin forever.

Jesus Himself explains this truth long before Hebrews was written. He said His blood is “the blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins” (Matthew 26:28). If His blood brings full forgiveness, then the old sacrifices have no more place. Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” (John 14:6). If He is the only way, then the old priesthood cannot continue beside Him. Jesus also said, “In this place there is One greater than the temple” (Matthew 12:6). If He is greater than the temple, then everything in the temple, including its priests and rituals, is passing away. He told the Samaritan woman that the hour was coming when people would not worship on a mountain or in Jerusalem but in spirit and truth (John 4:21–24). This means the old system, tied to one place and one priesthood, would end when the true worshiper comes to God through Christ.

None of these teachings ever speak against the Ten Commandments. Jesus never called God’s commandments weak or useless. He said, “If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matthew 19:17). He said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15). He warned that those who hear His words but do not do them build on sand and will fall (Matthew 7:24–27). John also says, “His commandments are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3). These verses show that God’s will for how we live did not become weak, and it did not get annulled. Only the priesthood of Levi and its sacrifices ended, because Jesus became the High Priest forever, and His sacrifice does what no animal sacrifice could ever do.

 

[vassal]

Still waiting on you to tell us why you do not believe that in Hebrews 7:12-10:1 Jesus inspired Paul to write about a new covenant with Jesus as the high priest (not so much as a replacement but by way of superseding or updating to eliminate a deficiency).

Did you forget my suggestion that you update your deficient bottom lines by adding the following?:

"The former regulation is set aside... and Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant." (Hebrews 7:18a & 22b)

yes he was inspired but I explain the meaning of Heb 7:18 in a previous post no 42, let me know if you agree. also I just realized that I cannot add or edit the O.P. but the suggestion is a good one and if you like I can write about it in detail.

 

[vassal]

He certainly did say that in reference to His death and resurrection to be fulfilled in accordance with prophecy and the fact that He was Himself, the total and absolute fulfillment of the Decalogue as the sinless and perfect One that God had promised. God, knowing no human being could possibly meet the impossible demands of the law that He gave ( which Jesus also summed up in two commands from God) had provided the answer to the dilemma of fallen mankind, Jew and Gentile alike, Himself. God made the rules, God cursed the earth and all mankind and then delivered both through His own answer to the impossible problem. The earth continues under the burden of sin (For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. Rom. 8:22) but we are provided with a new life in Jesus, free from our sin and free of the impossible ability to keep a law that would result in perfection if it were possible to be kept by humankind.

The law is still in effect for all who are without the New Covenant and sadly it would seem, for all those who attempt to secure salvation through the keeping of it.

I will ask a simple question , how do you define the new covenant exactly? thank you.

 

[pinebeach]

I will ask a simple question , how do you define the new covenant exactly? thank you.

I answered your question. The New Covenant is through the blood of Jesus, NOT impossible to keep commandments.

You are welcome.

 

[pinebeach]

I agree but these verses are hard to understand for many and I want the text to be clear let me explain; Many people read Hebrews 7:18 and think it speaks against the Ten Commandments, but that is not what the verse means. Hebrews 7:18 says, “For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness.” The “former commandment” here is the command that established the Levitical priesthood with animal sacrifices, earthly priests, and temple rituals. That whole system was temporary and could never give eternal life. It could never cleanse the heart. It only pointed forward to the One who would come. People think it speaks of the Ten Commandments because the writing style of Hebrews compresses many ideas together and speaks about the law of Moses as a whole, but the context shows the focus is on the priesthood and the sacrifices. The weakness was not God’s moral law. The weakness was in the animal system that could not take away sin forever.

Jesus Himself explains this truth long before Hebrews was written. He said His blood is “the blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins” (Matthew 26:28). If His blood brings full forgiveness, then the old sacrifices have no more place. Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” (John 14:6). If He is the only way, then the old priesthood cannot continue beside Him. Jesus also said, “In this place there is One greater than the temple” (Matthew 12:6). If He is greater than the temple, then everything in the temple, including its priests and rituals, is passing away. He told the Samaritan woman that the hour was coming when people would not worship on a mountain or in Jerusalem but in spirit and truth (John 4:21–24). This means the old system, tied to one place and one priesthood, would end when the true worshiper comes to God through Christ.

None of these teachings ever speak against the Ten Commandments. Jesus never called God’s commandments weak or useless. He said, “If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matthew 19:17). He said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15). He warned that those who hear His words but do not do them build on sand and will fall (Matthew 7:24–27). John also says, “His commandments are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3). These verses show that God’s will for how we live did not become weak, and it did not get annulled. Only the priesthood of Levi and its sacrifices ended, because Jesus became the High Priest forever, and His sacrifice does what no animal sacrifice could ever do.

You do understand that the Bible says you are under a curse if you deny that salvation is only through Christ?

Jesus became a curse for us Gal. 3: 15 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us — for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree" and of course Paul is referring to the law given in the OT.


redeem
verb
transitive verb

1
a
: to buy back : repurchase
b
: to get or win back

2
: to free from what distresses or harms: such as
a
: to free from captivity by payment of ransom
b
: to extricate from or help to overcome something detrimental
c
: to release from blame or debt : clear
d
: to free from the consequences of sin

3
: to change for the better : reform

4
: repair, restore

5
a
: to free from a lien by payment of an amount secured thereby
b(1)
: to remove the obligation of by payment
the U.S. Treasury redeems savings bonds on demand

(2)
: to exchange for something of value
redeem trading stamps

c
: to make good : fulfill

6
a
: to atone for : expiate
redeem an error

b(1)
: to offset the bad effect of
(2)
: to make worthwhile : retrieve

redeemable
ri-ˈdē-mə-bəl
adjective

So, if Jesus redeemed us from the curse of the law (the curse being death, both physical and spiritual) then trying to get back under the law, will also put you back under the curse of the law. Jesus fulfilled the law; He never sinned. You and every other person on the planet have sinned, do sin and will sin until we receive our new bodies. It is not that we sin willfully or live in sin either. John makes it plain that we do. However, we have forgivness through th blood of Jesus.

The verses are not hard to understand. What does seem to be hard in this case, is your denial that Jesus sacrifice completed the need to fulfill the law which a human being cannot keep in the perfection God demands.

 

[Blade]

When Jesus walked this earth..they were all living by and under the law. Something happened when He died rose seated at the right hand of the Father.. shouting time

 

[TMS]

Still waiting on you to tell us why you do not believe that in Hebrews 7:12-10:1 Jesus inspired Paul to write about a new covenant with Jesus as the high priest (not so much as a replacement but by way of superseding or updating to eliminate a deficiency).

Did you forget my suggestion that you update your deficient bottom lines by adding the following?:

"The former regulation is set aside... and Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant." (Hebrews 7:18a & 22b)

Hebrews is clearly comparing the cerimonial service with the service of Jesus.
It is clearly showing that the Earthly tabernacle, sacrifices and services were a shadow, a pattern of the heavenly.

The Earthly system was a pattern of the Heavenly and when Jesus died, and went back to heaven His priestly ministry began.

Heb 8:5-6
Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. 6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Jesus is the better part His blood is better and the heavenly is better.

Heb 9:9-11
Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. 11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

The first system was an example but the blood of bulls and goats was not enough to save us. But the better (Jesus) was able to save to the uttermost.

Heb 10:3-6 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

Heb 7:22-25 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. 23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: 24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

The old cerimonial system was not able to save but the better new covenant is able to save because the blood of Jesus and the priestly ministry of Jesus is so
Much better.

This is the difference.

 

[vassal]

You do understand that the Bible says you are under a curse if you deny that salvation is only through Christ?

Jesus became a curse for us Gal. 3: 15 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us — for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree" and of course Paul is referring to the law given in the OT.


redeem
verb
transitive verb

1
a
: to buy back : repurchase
b
: to get or win back

2
: to free from what distresses or harms: such as
a
: to free from captivity by payment of ransom
b
: to extricate from or help to overcome something detrimental
c
: to release from blame or debt : clear
d
: to free from the consequences of sin

3
: to change for the better : reform

4
: repair, restore

5
a
: to free from a lien by payment of an amount secured thereby
b(1)
: to remove the obligation of by payment
the U.S. Treasury redeems savings bonds on demand

(2)
: to exchange for something of value
redeem trading stamps

c
: to make good : fulfill

6
a
: to atone for : expiate
redeem an error

b(1)
: to offset the bad effect of
(2)
: to make worthwhile : retrieve

redeemable
ri-ˈdē-mə-bəl
adjective

So, if Jesus redeemed us from the curse of the law (the curse being death, both physical and spiritual) then trying to get back under the law, will also put you back under the curse of the law. Jesus fulfilled the law; He never sinned. You and every other person on the planet have sinned, do sin and will sin until we receive our new bodies. It is not that we sin willfully or live in sin either. John makes it plain that we do. However, we have forgivness through th blood of Jesus.

The verses are not hard to understand. What does seem to be hard in this case, is your denial that Jesus sacrifice completed the need to fulfill the law which a human being cannot keep in the perfection God demands.

why would I deny that salvation is only through Christ? I never said the contrary I totally agree with this statement.
Salvation is found only in Christ, and Jesus Himself said this in simple, direct words. He said He is the way, the truth, and the life, and that no one can come to the Father except through Him (John 14:6). He said He is the door, and that whoever enters by Him will be saved (John 10:9). He told us that God gave His only Son so that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16). He said that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him will have everlasting life (John 6:40), and He promised that He is the resurrection and the life, and that the one who believes in Him will live even if he dies (John 11:25). These are the words of Jesus Himself, making it clear that salvation is found only in Him.

His apostles repeated the same message. Peter said there is no salvation in any other, because there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved (Acts 4:12). John said that God gave us eternal life and that this life is in His Son, and that the one who has the Son has life (1 John 5:11–12). John also said that they saw and testified that the Father sent the Son as the Savior of the world (1 John 4:14). They never pointed to anyone else, because they knew salvation comes only through Christ.

The prophets also pointed forward to this truth. God said, Look to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth (Isaiah 45:22). Isaiah spoke of the One who would carry the sins of all people, saying that the Lord laid on Him the sin of us all (Isaiah 53:6) and that He would bear their iniquities (Isaiah 53:11). These promises show that God’s salvation would come through one chosen servant, and Jesus fulfilled this completely.

From the words of Jesus, to the witness of the apostles, to the prophecies of the Scriptures before Him, the message is simple and clear: salvation is only through Christ.

Your message speaks of a “curse” connected to the law, but the Scriptures Jesus taught, and the writings of His own apostles, explain this in a very different way from what you are presenting.

First, the curse in the Old Testament was never the law itself. The law was called holy, just, and good because it came from God who is Holy and Perfect in all things.. The curse was the penalty for disobedience to that law, which is death. Jesus Himself confirmed this when He said that breaking even one of God’s commandments makes a person guilty and in danger of judgment (Matthew 5:19). So the curse is not obedience. The curse is sin.

Jesus never spoke of the commandments as a curse. He spoke of them as light, life, and the way to walk with God. He said, If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17). He said the greatest commandments are to love God and love your neighbor (Matthew 22:37–40). He said His followers keep His commandments because they love Him (John 14:15).

What Jesus came to do was not to remove the commandments but to remove the condemnation that hangs over every sinner. He said He came to give His life as a ransom for many (Matthew 20:28). A ransom is a payment made to free someone from captivity, which matches the idea of redemption from the penalty of sin, not freedom from God’s ways. He released us from the guilt of sin so we can walk in the truth.

John, one of the twelve, explained this same thing. He said that believers do still fail at times and that when we do, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous (1 John 2:1). This means forgiveness is offered when we stumble, not that sin becomes acceptable. John also said, Whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. And he added, He who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk just as He walked (1 John 2:4–6). So the answer to human weakness is not throwing away God’s commands but walking with Christ, relying on His mercy when we fail, and aiming to live as He lived.

You said humans cannot keep God’s will perfectly. That is true. Jesus already said no branch can bear fruit without staying connected to Him (John 15:4–5). Our strength comes from Him. But Jesus never used our weakness as a reason to reject God’s commandments. Instead, He made obedience the mark of those who truly belong to Him. Not perfect obedience by human strength, but sincere obedience flowing from love and empowered by His Spirit.

To reject His commandments is is rebellion. Jesus warned that many will call Him Lord, yet He will say, Depart from Me, because they practiced lawlessness (Matthew 7:23). Lawlessness means rejecting God’s ways.

So the sacrifice of Jesus did not cancel the good works God calls us to or the commandments He revealed. His sacrifice removes the guilt of our sins so we can walk in newness of life, forgiven, cleansed, and taught by Him. He fulfilled the law in the sense that He lived it perfectly, showing us what it looks like when God’s will is written on the heart — and then He promised to write this same law inside us under the new covenant (Jeremiah 31:33; echoed by Jesus when He taught that the pure in heart will see God).

The teaching that obedience places a believer “back under a curse” is simply not what Jesus or the original apostles taught. The curse is sin. The freedom is forgiveness. The life is walking with Christ in love, truth, and obedience.

 

[vassal]

Hebrews is clearly comparing the cerimonial service with the service of Jesus.
It is clearly showing that the Earthly tabernacle, sacrifices and services were a shadow, a pattern of the heavenly.

The Earthly system was a pattern of the Heavenly and when Jesus died, and went back to heaven His priestly ministry began.

Heb 8:5-6
Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. 6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Jesus is the better part His blood is better and the heavenly is better.

Heb 9:9-11
Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. 11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

The first system was an example but the blood of bulls and goats was not enough to save us. But the better (Jesus) was able to save to the uttermost.

Heb 10:3-6 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

Heb 7:22-25 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. 23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: 24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

The old cerimonial system was not able to save but the better new covenant is able to save because the blood of Jesus and the priestly ministry of Jesus is so
Much better.

This is the difference.

THank you brother for explaining further much appreciated.

 

[vassal]

Hebrews is clearly comparing the cerimonial service with the service of Jesus.
It is clearly showing that the Earthly tabernacle, sacrifices and services were a shadow, a pattern of the heavenly.

The Earthly system was a pattern of the Heavenly and when Jesus died, and went back to heaven His priestly ministry began.

Heb 8:5-6
Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. 6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Jesus is the better part His blood is better and the heavenly is better.

Heb 9:9-11
Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. 11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

The first system was an example but the blood of bulls and goats was not enough to save us. But the better (Jesus) was able to save to the uttermost.

Heb 10:3-6 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

Heb 7:22-25 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. 23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: 24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

The old cerimonial system was not able to save but the better new covenant is able to save because the blood of Jesus and the priestly ministry of Jesus is so
Much better.

This is the difference.

THank you brother for explaining further much appreciated.

 

[mailmandan]

I am not SDA and not part or any denomination I adhere to the words of Christ and his teachings, can you find anything wrong with this? what label will you categorize me now? a legalist? a judaizer? so be it.

So be it. Your words not mine. Many folks who teach different doctrines all claim to adhere to the words of Christ but they can't all be right.

You say I follow a counterfeit gospel, but what you describe is not what I believe at all.

I said a former member of Christian Chat who is SDA follows a false gospel of "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works." So, how is your gospel any different?

You claim that I try to separate God’s law from the cross, but that is the opposite of what I say. I have always said what Jesus said. Jesus teaches love, obedience, faith, and repentance together. I do not preach “law without the cross,” and I do not preach “cross without obedience.” I preach exactly what Christ preached.

When did I claim that YOU try to separate God’s law from the cross? I pointed out that the SDA said a counterfeit gospel tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the cross/tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation. It sounds to me like you are in agreement with this SDA.

Jesus says, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15).

Keeping His commandments is how believers demonstrate their love for Jesus.

Jesus says, “If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matthew 19:17).

Jesus showed the rich young ruler how short he falls of keeping the first commandment (Exodus 20:3) which is the first of the two great commandments. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37) The rich young ruler confidently and (self righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms. Yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in Jesus unto salvation.

The rich young ruler missed the point that Jesus was making and failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued instead to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23). The rich young ruler went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life.

If keeping the commandments is the basis by which we receive eternal life, then why isn't this remark the pattern for all discussions concerning eternal life? Paul would have said to the jailer who asked, "what must I do to be saved?" by replying in Acts 16:31 - keep the commandments, yet that's not what Paul said. Instead, Paul said - "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." *We see this throughout scripture - (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; Acts 15:7-9; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6 etc..). What we don't see is salvation by works (Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Jesus says, “Whoever hears My sayings and does them is the wise man” (Matthew 7:24).

Descriptive of believers who are wise and build their house on the rock in contrast with those who are foolish (descriptive of make believers) who build their house on the sand.

John says, “His commandments are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3).

Christ's commands are not a burden, but a blessing for those who know the Lord. Jesus said, "For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." (Matthew 11:30)

These words join the cross, the new heart, and obedience together. I do not separate them. I repeat what the Lord Himself said.

Since the old covenant has been made obsolete, does this leave us with no moral direction? Absolutely not. God made the old covenant obsolete to legally put into place the new covenant. (2 Corinthians 3:6-9; Hebrews 8:6-13)

The life of discipleship flows out of the new command, to love one another as He loved us (John 13:34), and the apostle Paul says that by bearing one another's burdens, we fulfill "law of Christ." (Galatians 6:2) So, love fulfills the law (Romans 13:8-10) We are not under the law of Moses.

So your accusation is false. I do not follow the gospel you describe. I follow Christ, His teachings, and His way. If Jesus ties love, faith, and obedience together, then no one has the right to call that a counterfeit gospel. That is the gospel of the King Himself.

My accusation against the SDA was spot on. The gospel of the King Himself is not justification by works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ. (Galatians 2:16) The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

 

[Me_Clay]

So be it. Your words not mine. Many folks who teach different doctrines all claim to adhere to the words of Christ but they can't all be right.

I said a former member of Christian Chat who is SDA follows a false gospel of "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works." So, how is your gospel any different?

When did I claim that YOU try to separate God’s law from the cross? I pointed out that the SDA said a counterfeit gospel tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the cross/tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation. It sounds to me like you are in agreement with this SDA.

Keeping His commandments is how believers demonstrate their love for Jesus.

Jesus showed the rich young ruler how short he falls of keeping the first commandment (Exodus 20:3) which is the first of the two great commandments. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37) The rich young ruler confidently and (self righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms. Yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in Jesus unto salvation.

The rich young ruler missed the point that Jesus was making and failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued instead to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23). The rich young ruler went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life.

If keeping the commandments is the basis by which we receive eternal life, then why isn't this remark the pattern for all discussions concerning eternal life? Paul would have said to the jailer who asked, "what must I do to be saved?" by replying in Acts 16:31 - keep the commandments, yet that's not what Paul said. Instead, Paul said - "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." *We see this throughout scripture - (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; Acts 15:7-9; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6 etc..). What we don't see is salvation by works (Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Descriptive of believers who are wise and build their house on the rock in contrast with those who are foolish (descriptive of make believers) who build their house on the sand.

Christ's commands are not a burden, but a blessing for those who know the Lord. Jesus said, "For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." (Matthew 11:30)

Since the old covenant has been made obsolete, does this leave us with no moral direction? Absolutely not. God made the old covenant obsolete to legally put into place the new covenant. (2 Corinthians 3:6-9; Hebrews 8:6-13)

The life of discipleship flows out of the new command, to love one another as He loved us (John 13:34), and the apostle Paul says that by bearing one another's burdens, we fulfill "law of Christ." (Galatians 6:2) So, love fulfills the law (Romans 13:8-10) We are not under the law of Moses.

My accusation against the SDA was spot on. The gospel of the King Himself is not justification by works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ. (Galatians 2:16) The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

Would be kind if you summarised into one sentence

 

[TMS]

If keeping the commandments is the basis by which we receive eternal life, then why isn't this remark the pattern for all discussions concerning eternal life? Paul would have said to the jailer who asked, "what must I do to be saved?" by replying in Acts 16:31 - keep the commandments, yet that's not what Paul said. Instead, Paul said - "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." *We see this throughout scripture - (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; Acts 15:7-9; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6 etc..). What we don't see is salvation by works (Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Can I say it any clearer ....
Human works, my works, keeping any laws or doing any good deeds will not save us.

I can not earn salvation... even if I keep the law I will not purchase my salvation..

Salvation is a GIFT. it is by faith in Jesus that we recieve that gift.

Paul said it, Jesus said it and it was said many times throughout the Bible and I totally agree with salvation by faith through grace.

But the Bible also states inspired by the same Holy Spirit that we are to be renewed and transformed.

Mat 3:1-2 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
REPENT.
Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Mat 5:17-20
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I think you understand the link between faith and works. True faith will result in a Christ like transformation.

the transformed heart is by faith which is what is promised..

So by faith we are justified and sanctified..

Paul states it well...

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Do you agree with Paul, that we should establish the law by faith?

Rom 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Rom 6:12-16 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

If I choose to serve Jesus because I love Him, because He paid for my sins, I want to obey Him and keep His commandments.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

So keeping the commandments are not works to earn salvation... they are works because i love my Lord.

2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

2Ti 2:19 ...The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

1Jn 3:3-8 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is ppure.4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no ssin.6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known hhim.7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

So I ask, shouldn't we all aim to be like Christ, should we all aim to repent, shouldn't we all be born again and give up sin? Shouldn't we all love Jesus and cleanse ourself of all filthiness? Shouldnt we depart from iniquity, do His righteousness and obey His law?
By the power of Christ.....

Eph 3:19-20 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. 20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

 

[TMS]

Please explain ....
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

 

[mailmandan]

Would be kind if you summarised into one sentence

I'll let TMS go first.

 

[mailmandan]

Can I say it any clearer ....
Human works, my works, keeping any laws or doing any good deeds will not save us.

I can not earn salvation... even if I keep the law I will not purchase my salvation..

Salvation is a GIFT. it is by faith in Jesus that we recieve that gift.

Paul said it, Jesus said it and it was said many times throughout the Bible and I totally agree with salvation by faith through grace.

Amen! Salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

But the Bible also states inspired by the same Holy Spirit that we are to be renewed and transformed.

Romans 12:2 - And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

Mat 3:1-2 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
REPENT.
Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Yes, repent (change your mind) and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. When only repentance is mentioned, faith is implied or assumed and when only belief/faith is mentioned repentance is implied or assumed. Two sides to the same coin.

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

Mark 1:15 - The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the gospel.

Also see (Luke 13:3; 24:47; Acts 3:19; 5:31; 10:43; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 20:21; 26:18).

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Amen! Moral self-reformation is not a substitute for regeneration. We must be born again.

Mat 5:17-20
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

If the law of Moses bears the same status to men today, in terms of it binding, then it was not fulfilled, and Jesus failed at what He came to do. On the other hand, if Jesus did accomplish His goal, then the law was fulfilled, and it is not a binding legal institution today. Further, if the law of Moses was not fulfilled by Christ and remains as a binding legal system for today then it is not just partially binding, but totally binding. Jesus plainly said that not one “jot or tittle” would pass away until all was fulfilled. Jesus fulfilled the law, all of the law and not just part of it. We cannot say that Jesus merely fulfilled the sacrificial system, but did not fulfill the rest of the law. Jesus either fulfilled all of the law, or none of it.

In regard to Matthew 5:20 - "unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven," this statement from Jesus would come as a shock to the Israelites who had great admiration of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, for their knowledge of the law and seeming righteousness and holiness in external observance of the law, yet Jesus points out their righteousness was defective.

Paul makes it clear in Romans 10:3-4, "For they (Israel) being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who BELIEVES."

Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.

Romans 3:21 - But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22
even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference.

Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Be Perfect (teleioi). The word comes from telo, end, goal, limit. Here it is the goal set before us, the absolute standard of our Heavenly Father. The word is used also for relative perfection as of adults compared with children. Absolute perfection, sinless, without fault or defect, flawless for us will not become a reality until we are present with the Lord, but that is the goal to strive for. Yet teleioi is also used to refer to the maturity of an adult.

I think you understand the link between faith and works. True faith will result in a Christ like transformation.

Yes and faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit.

the transformed heart is by faith which is what is promised..

Hearts are purified by faith. (Acts 15:9) Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17)

So by faith we are justified and sanctified..

Amen! 1 Corinthians 6:11.

CONTINUED..

 

[mailmandan]

Paul states it well...

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Do you agree with Paul, that we should establish the law by faith?

How do you define "establish the law?" We establish or uphold the law by putting our faith in the One who fulfilled all the righteous requirements of the law on our behalf and who offers us His perfect righteousness as a free gift. (Romans 4:5-6) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (Romans 10:4)

Rom 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Being servants of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become servants of righteousness."

Rom 6:12-16 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

There are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense - "servants of sin unto death," or "servants of obedience unto righteousness." When we place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation (Acts 15:7-9; 1 Romans 3:24-26; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness."

If I choose to serve Jesus because I love Him, because He paid for my sins, I want to obey Him and keep His commandments.

Define "keep" His commandments and which commandments are we to keep under the new covenant? Do you believe it's the 10 commandments under the old covenant of law?

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

That is how we demonstrate our love for Jesus.

So keeping the commandments are not works to earn salvation... they are works because i love my Lord.

1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. (This is descriptive of genuine believers) 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (That is descriptive of unbelievers)

Strong's Greek: 5083. τηρέω (téreó) -- to watch over, to guard (biblehub.com)

2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

2Ti 2:19 ...The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Amen! As long as you don't abuse these verses to teach sinless perfection. (1 John 1:8-10)

1Jn 3:3-8 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is ppure.4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no ssin.6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known hhim.7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Amen!

So I ask, shouldn't we all aim to be like Christ, should we all aim to repent, shouldn't we all be born again and give up sin? Shouldn't we all love Jesus and cleanse ourself of all filthiness? Shouldnt we depart from iniquity, do His righteousness and obey His law? By the power of Christ.....

Eph 3:19-20 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. 20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

Yes, we should all strive to be like Christ by the power of God's grace. (1 Corinthians 15:10; 2 Corinthians 1:12; 2 Corinthians 12:9)

 

[Me_Clay]

How do you define "establish the law?" We establish or uphold the law by putting our faith in the One who fulfilled all the righteous requirements of the law on our behalf and who offers us His perfect righteousness as a free gift. (Romans 4:5-6) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (Romans 10:4)

1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Being servants of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become servants of righteousness."

There are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense - "servants of sin unto death," or "servants of obedience unto righteousness." When we place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation (Acts 15:7-9; 1 Romans 3:24-26; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness."

Define "keep" His commandments and which commandments are we to keep under the new covenant? Do you believe it's the 10 commandments under the old covenant of law?

That is how we demonstrate our love for Jesus.

1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. (This is descriptive of genuine believers) 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (That is descriptive of unbelievers)

Strong's Greek: 5083. τηρέω (téreó) -- to watch over, to guard (biblehub.com)

Amen! As long as you don't abuse these verses to teach sinless perfection. (1 John 1:8-10)

Amen!

Yes, we should all strive to be like Christ by the power of God's grace. (1 Corinthians 15:10; 2 Corinthians 1:12; 2 Corinthians 12:9)

Still too lengthy should keep it plain and simple for everyone to understand

 

[mailmandan]

Please explain ....
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

We establish or uphold the law by putting our faith in the One who fulfilled all the righteous requirements of the law on our behalf and who offers us His perfect righteousness as a free gift. (Romans 4:5-6) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (Romans 10:4)

Rom 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

The gospel is not a license to sin, and Paul answers this question with an emphatic no! Christians are not to continue in sin to increase the grace of God. In fact, Christians practice righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9-10) A life of persistent, willful sin is inconsistent with those who have truly been saved. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11; Galatians 5:19-21)

[Ecc 12:13Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. Just don't confuse the old and new covenants. (2 Corinthians 3:6-9; Hebrews 8:13)

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Do you believe that Jesus was telling the rich young ruler that keeping the commandments is the basis or means by which he will receive eternal life? Or do you believe that Jesus was trying to bring conviction to the rich young ruler who has fallen short and has also failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation and continued instead to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23). We see that the rich young ruler went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life. Big fail!