Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[rogerg]

Well I have certainly realized, via this thread, how scripture becomes a mangled mess in their hands. Plenty are willfully blind and work to ensnare others.

The promise in Romans 9 has nothing to do with being unconditionally elected unto salvation but everything to do with faith.

To be a child of promise, a child of Abraham, one must believe first. Which is why Paul concludes this point in Romans 9:30-33.

Romans 9:30-33
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

Wrong. Did you actually read and understand Romans 9 and associated verses from other books? True enduring belief comes from God, not man. Therefore, one must first become saved to receive the attributes of a true Christian, one of which, is true belief.
It can't be made any clearer than the following verses make it.

[Phl 1:29 KJV] 29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
[2Pe 1:1 KJV] 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
[Act 13:48 KJV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

[Jhn 17:9 KJV]
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. ...

[Rom 9:8,11, 15-16, 18, 20-26 KJV]
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth ...
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. ...
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth. ...
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

 

[Blue155]

Well I have certainly realized, via this thread, how scripture becomes a mangled mess in their hands. Plenty are willfully blind and work to ensnare others.

Amen.

 

[Rufus]

But then you are saying you have free will to sin but not to do good.

I never said such a thing. Christ has set me free from the power of sin, yet indwelling sin remains in this age! No saint will be immutably free from the presence of sin until the dawn of the new age. That's when all the saints will be "magically" transformed into mind-numbed robots totally enslaved to holiness, righteousness and goodness as the Savior is.

 

[Rufus]

Apostles is a term for those who got the gospel directly through Christ. Person to person.

Really? You apparently don't know that there were more than 12 apostles and not all of them received the gospel "person to person"! See Col 1:1-2; Act 14:14.

Also, if that's the case and Christ's words to his apostles don't apply to any other New Covenant believer, then logically NOTHING He taught to the 12 has any relevance to the Church.

 

[Blue155]

@cv5, Frank Turek stated that Calvinism is false and it tragically makes God the author of evil, but then in another video he states he doesn’t think Calvinism is heresy. Talk about talking out of both sides of his mouth!!

 

[Jordon]

Long live the Calvies

 

[Rufus]

Man chooses to harden his own heart.
God obliges.

Hebrews 3:7-11​

​

So, as the Holy Spirit says:​

​

“Today, if you hear his voice,​

do not harden your hearts​

as you did in the rebellion,​

during the time of testing in the wilderness,​

where your ancestors tested and tried me,​

though for forty years they saw what I did.​

​

That is why I was angry with that generation;​

I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray,​

and they have not known my ways.’​

So I declared on oath in my anger,​

‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ”​

.

False! That is not what happened to Pharaoh. Read Ex 3-4 someday and follow the chronological flow of the narrative. Also, what God did to Pharaoh demonstrated the sovereignty of God taught in Prov 21:1.

 

[Jordon]

the name calling goes both ways ...

Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

.

Well you can either love labels or hate them

And you can love hate to.

So can fear be strengthened

 

[Rufus]

@cv5, Frank Turek stated that Calvinism is false and it tragically makes God the author of evil, but then in another video he states he doesn’t think Calvinism is heresy. Talk about talking out of both sides of his mouth!!

How does "Calvinism" make "God the author of evil"?

 

[Just_A__Follower]

I believe we have free will meaning you have three choices in everything we do, say or think. God’s way, satan’s way, or don’t do it at all which can sometimes be God’s way or satan’s way. Either way we make that choice. For God not to give us free will would mean we are all robots and He programmed many to just be evil.

 

[Jordon]

Judges 7:2 And the LORD said unto Gideon, The people that are with thee are too many for me to give the Midianites into their hands, lest Israel vaunt themselves against me, saying, Mine own hand hath saved me.

see the word "lest" ? that means the Israelites were not yet boasting ... God had them reduce their numbers so that they would not vaunt themselves ... the reduction in number was done so they would know that it was God Who won the victory ... they could not glorify themselves.





If you start with 32,000 and 10,000 remained ... that means 22,000 trembled with fear.





God gave instructions to Gideon. God did not instruct all 10,000 who remained.





According to Judges 7:3, only 22,000 were fearful and afraid.

Of the 10,000 remaining who were not fearful and afraid, 9,700 were excluded from going with Gideon to face the Midianites.

There is no indication in Judges 7 that the 9,700 trembled with fear ... nor is there any indication in Judges 7 that their hearts were hardened.





Please provide the verse which states "he strengthened with strengthening fear. a hardening".

Please provide the verse which states "the lord replaced there mercy and affection he had already placed in there hearts, where he hardened there hearts he said show them no mercy".

According to Judges 6:1, the Israelites did evil in the sight of the LORD: and the LORD delivered them into the hand of Midian seven years.

According to Judges 6:7-10, when the children of Israel cried unto the LORD because of the Midianites, God scolded them for their disobedience.

According to Judges 6:11-24, God called Gideon and Gideon worshipped and made sacrifice to God.





God decreased the number so that the people would know that it was He ... the Lord God ... Who had won the victory.

kinda reminds me of what God said to Paul ... my strength is made perfect in weakness (2 Cor 12:7).

.

sadly you've missed the point

Can fear be strengthened

 

[Jordon]

@Jordon : Definitely, Bro! It's just coming up to 7.00 pm at my place now; So is it 9.00 am at your place now?

must be Douglas,

The lord has shined a light today for you my friend

Long live life and we say death to sin.

Sin is no more right here right now, the lord say he will harden your heart to accepting all sin that may be chucked upon you.

Because the war is won my friend

Long live hope

For it is in living hope you where saved.

With that I say good morning

 

[Jordon]

the name calling goes both ways ...

Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

.

The lord say 7 and 7 was the points the point raised that make a person live in heaven,

Deuteronomy 7 and judges 7 was the leven

 

[Blue155]

Matthew J. Hart, is clear: “Calvinists . . . are theological determinists. They hold that God causes every contingent event, either directly . . . or indirectly

“Calvinists, I shall assume, are theological determinists. They hold that God causes every contingent event, either directly or indirectly.”

Paul Helm (a British philosopher and Reformed Theologian) states “Not only is every atom and molecule, every thought and desire, kept in being by God, but every twist and turn of each of these is under the direct control of God. He has not, as far as we know, delegated that control to anyone else.”

 

[Jordon]

Matthew J. Hart, is clear: “Calvinists . . . are theological determinists. They hold that God causes every contingent event, either directly . . . or indirectly

“Calvinists, I shall assume, are theological determinists. They hold that God causes every contingent event, either directly or indirectly.”

Paul Helm (a British philosopher and Reformed Theologian) states “Not only is every atom and molecule, every thought and desire, kept in being by God, but every twist and turn of each of these is under the direct control of God. He has not, as far as we know, delegated that control to anyone else.”

a funny Joke haha giggle giggle lets have a niggle

 

[Jordon]

Judges 7:2 And the LORD said unto Gideon, The people that are with thee are too many for me to give the Midianites into their hands, lest Israel vaunt themselves against me, saying, Mine own hand hath saved me.

see the word "lest" ? that means the Israelites were not yet boasting ... God had them reduce their numbers so that they would not vaunt themselves ... the reduction in number was done so they would know that it was God Who won the victory ... they could not glorify themselves.





If you start with 32,000 and 10,000 remained ... that means 22,000 trembled with fear.





God gave instructions to Gideon. God did not instruct all 10,000 who remained.





According to Judges 7:3, only 22,000 were fearful and afraid.

Of the 10,000 remaining who were not fearful and afraid, 9,700 were excluded from going with Gideon to face the Midianites.

There is no indication in Judges 7 that the 9,700 trembled with fear ... nor is there any indication in Judges 7 that their hearts were hardened.





Please provide the verse which states "he strengthened with strengthening fear. a hardening".

Please provide the verse which states "the lord replaced there mercy and affection he had already placed in there hearts, where he hardened there hearts he said show them no mercy".

According to Judges 6:1, the Israelites did evil in the sight of the LORD: and the LORD delivered them into the hand of Midian seven years.

According to Judges 6:7-10, when the children of Israel cried unto the LORD because of the Midianites, God scolded them for their disobedience.

According to Judges 6:11-24, God called Gideon and Gideon worshipped and made sacrifice to God.





God decreased the number so that the people would know that it was He ... the Lord God ... Who had won the victory.

kinda reminds me of what God said to Paul ... my strength is made perfect in weakness (2 Cor 12:7).

.

read judges 7 again perhaps in the niv

And see where the lord has already said they will boast in my strength.

So the lord then hardened his own strength in fear


And to the other he hardened to not show mercy
As in Romans 9:18 and Deuteronomy 7

 

[Jackson129]

Therein lies your problem. If God only enables us to make a choice, then salvation is no longer by grace. It is grace plus the work of man. Scripture teaches grace alone.

Grace is an unmerited gift.

For God so loved the world he GAVE his only begotten son.

God's grace is the gift of his son without that no man could be saved. But with it that whosoever believith in him shall be saved. Its always God's grace even if we choose or God does.

 

[Jackson129]

Really? You apparently don't know that there were more than 12 apostles and not all of them received the gospel "person to person"! See Col 1:1-2; Act 14:14.

Also, if that's the case and Christ's words to his apostles don't apply to any other New Covenant believer, then logically NOTHING He taught to the 12 has any relevance to the Church.

Why is it so hard for you to except he gave special knowledge to those who built the church? Do you feel left out if he did that?

 

[sawdust]

False! That is not what happened to Pharaoh. Read Ex 3-4 someday and follow the chronological flow of the narrative. Also, what God did to Pharaoh demonstrated the sovereignty of God taught in Prov 21:1.

It's you who needs to read the chronological flow for Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not listen exactly as the Lord said he would so in the end, the Lord gave him what he wanted.

Gen.7:13 7:22-23 8:15 8:19 8:32 9:7

We don't see the Lord harden Pharaoh's heart until the sixth plague. Gen.9:12

 

[Blue155]

It's you who needs to read the chronological flow for Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not listen exactly as the Lord said he would so in the end, the Lord gave him what he wanted.

Gen.7:13 7:22-23 8:15 8:19 8:32 9:7

We don't see the Lord harden Pharaoh's heart until the sixth plague. Gen.9:12

I think you mean Exodus 7:13 7:22-23 8:15 8:19 8:32 9:7.