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OLDBUTNEW
Guest
Anyway aus if im on late at night we can express some good will then and bless the Calvies
@Jordon : Definitely, Bro! It's just coming up to 7.00 pm at my place now; So is it 9.00 am at your place now?
Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
- Thread starter LifelongLearner
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@Jordon : Definitely, Bro! It's just coming up to 7.00 pm at my place now; So is it 9.00 am at your place now?
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Blue155
Guest
True, pure and faithful Calvinists have Satan being God’s hitman. It’s sick and twisted. If they do not, then they aren’t a Calvinist.
B
Blue155
Guest
Calvinism, when applied consistently, portrays God as orchestrating every event that ever occurred and will occur— as He has eternally decreed all events—including the sinful acts of Satan—as part of His own eternal decree. Then, Calvinism has Him getting angry at His very own eternal decrees, which makes God being angry at Himself. When viewed through true Calvinism lens, it does not have the God of the Bible. It has a distorted version who they believe is God.
Well we certainly cannot choose to do evil unto another that much is clear.
1Th 5:15
See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
Of course. So why then do they vociferously "hold on" to this bogus doctrine?
[Isa 55:1 KJV]
Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
[Isa 55:3 KJV]
Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and (CONSEQUENTLY) I will make an everlasting covenant with you, [even] the sure mercies of David.
[Isa 55:6 KJV]
Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
[Isa 55:7 KJV]
Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
[Isa 55:8 KJV]
For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
2 Cor 6:2
For He says: “In an acceptable time I have heard you, And in the day of salvation I have helped you.” Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.
Judges 7:2 And the LORD said unto Gideon, The people that are with thee are too many for me to give the Midianites into their hands, lest Israel vaunt themselves against me, saying, Mine own hand hath saved me.
see the word "lest" ? that means the Israelites were not yet boasting ... God had them reduce their numbers so that they would not vaunt themselves ... the reduction in number was done so they would know that it was God Who won the victory ... they could not glorify themselves.
If you start with 32,000 and 10,000 remained ... that means 22,000 trembled with fear.Jordon said:
God gave instructions to Gideon. God did not instruct all 10,000 who remained.Jordon said:
According to Judges 7:3, only 22,000 were fearful and afraid.Jordon said:
Of the 10,000 remaining who were not fearful and afraid, 9,700 were excluded from going with Gideon to face the Midianites.
There is no indication in Judges 7 that the 9,700 trembled with fear ... nor is there any indication in Judges 7 that their hearts were hardened.
Please provide the verse which states "he strengthened with strengthening fear. a hardening".Jordon said:
Please provide the verse which states "the lord replaced there mercy and affection he had already placed in there hearts, where he hardened there hearts he said show them no mercy".
According to Judges 6:1, the Israelites did evil in the sight of the LORD: and the LORD delivered them into the hand of Midian seven years.
According to Judges 6:7-10, when the children of Israel cried unto the LORD because of the Midianites, God scolded them for their disobedience.
According to Judges 6:11-24, God called Gideon and Gideon worshipped and made sacrifice to God.
God decreased the number so that the people would know that it was He ... the Lord God ... Who had won the victory.Jordon said:7 The Lord said to Gideon, “With the three hundred men that lapped I will save you and give the Midianites into your hands. Let all the others go home.” 8 So Gideon sent the rest of the Israelites home but kept the three hundred, who took over the provisions and trumpets of the others.
The whole purpose of this is to not boast and sat you can say God's strength is your own strength.
kinda reminds me of what God said to Paul ... my strength is made perfect in weakness (2 Cor 12:7).
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the name calling goes both ways ...
Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
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Well I have certainly realized, via this thread, how scripture becomes a mangled mess in their hands. Plenty are willfully blind and work to ensnare others.
The promise in Romans 9 has nothing to do with being unconditionally elected unto salvation but everything to do with faith.
To be a child of promise, a child of Abraham, one must believe first. Which is why Paul concludes this point in Romans 9:30-33.
Romans 9:30-33
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.
It does apply to all men. Scripture tells us that we were once as them. So, how do we do good?
God walked on water, and raised the dead.
If you believe these truths, can you not consider the fact that He is able and willing to renew man's heart, restore his lost ability and draw that man to Christ, even if the man has absolutely no desire or ability to come? If He works a change in you, will your desires not change as well?
This does not mean that we play no part in salvation. Once we are renewed we will trust, believe, and desire God in our life. These things must and will happen, but they are gifts given to those of His choosing. That is what [Grace] is!
This is what He does for the elect! Please don't tell me that this makes Him unfair in any way. . .
God does not force someone to believe.
God forces depraved men IN TO A STATE of freedom which allows them to believe if they want to.
What the total depravity mindset fails to see is that man's depravity has its source in the body -
Not in the soul!
And, unless God's grace forced silence from the flesh?
That soul will remain a slave to the depravity and will not be able to believe.
The soul will not know that it even can believe.
The following passage is not talking about the human soul as being the source of the depravity of man.
It speaks of the PRISON that all souls have been locked inside of from birth. The prison that forces the
soul to be enslaved to depravity.
The "flesh."
I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer
I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.
For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right,
but I cannot perform it. [I have the intention and urge to do what is right, but no power to
carry it out.] For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—
This I keep on doing." Romans 7:15-19
The soul and the flesh are two different realities of our being.
When your flesh dies, it will be your soul that either goes to heaven, or to hell.
The soul sheds the depraved flesh.
The flesh returns to the dust of the earth.
Has anyone ever shown you that before?
God saves the soul! Not all of you!
God does not force you to believe!
God forces your flesh's dominance over the soul to be silenced by His power of grace!
Then.....
Your soul was made free to choose.
That is why.... We are saved by grace. (silencing the flesh)
Through faith. (what our soul freed by grace freely chose to believe - the Gospel)
grace and peace!
Ok I understand that all mighty God can do anything. He can absolutely do what you just said. As well he can also absolutely leave the choice to believe up to man. He could absolutely give man the choice to accept or deny him. He is all mighty he could do that just as easy as what you say.
Matthew 5-²²
But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother without cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, raca (empty head) shall be in danger of the council: But whosoever shall say thou fool shall be in danger of hell fire.
Thou fool = moros in Greek aka moron.
The idea seems to be here that if you make light of your fellow man you would be in danger of slander ( counsil) but if one makes damming bitter statements with references to hell ( heritic, lover of darkness, seed of the evil one) that person shall be in actual danger of hell themselves.
Jeremiah 18:7-10 strongly refutes Calvinism because it presents God’s dealings with people as conditional rather than predetermined. God says that when He pronounces judgment on a nation, that judgment can be reversed if the people turn from evil, and when He pronounces blessing, that blessing can be withdrawn if the people turn to sin. This model does not defend unconditional election, nor does it present God’s decrees as fixed or irresistible, but instead reveals that God responds to human choices. In this passage, God plainly states that His actions toward His people depend on their repentance or rebellion, showing that salvation and continued blessing are not unchangeable decrees but are conditioned upon obedience and the state of the heart.
While Jeremiah 18 does not directly reference 1 Corinthians 3, the pattern fits closely. In Jeremiah, God shows that His people can move from blessing to destruction or from destruction to mercy based on how they respond to Him. In 1 Corinthians 3, Paul confronts those believers in the Corinthian church who are living in the sins of “envying, and strife” as stated in 1 Corinthians 3:3. These are the very same sins listed in Galatians 5:19-21 among the works of the flesh, where Paul warns that “they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” Paul identifies the Corinthians as God’s building, saying in 1 Corinthians 3:9, “ye are God’s building.” He then adds the solemn warning in 1 Corinthians 3:17, “If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy,” which parallels Jesus’ own teaching that sin is what defiles a person in Mark 7:20-23. Paul applies this directly to the believers in Corinth who were justifying envy and strife, showing that continued sin places them under the threat of destruction rather than guaranteed security. This follows the same conditional pattern found in Jeremiah 18, where God gives real warnings with real consequences depending on the choices of those who hear His Word.
The materials in Paul’s parable represent the spiritual condition of the people themselves. Paul explicitly says in 1 Corinthians 9:1, “are not ye my work in the Lord?” which shows that the Corinthians themselves are the work he is building. He also identifies himself as a builder in 1 Corinthians 3:10, saying, “according to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation.” Because he is the builder, the statement in 1 Corinthians 3:15 that a man “shall be saved; yet so as by fire” refers to the builder who suffers loss when his work fails the test. In this case, Paul will be saved through the fire even if some of those he ministered to fall away. Yet the Corinthians, who are the building and the temple, are warned that if they continue justifying envy and strife, they will be destroyed, just as Jeremiah warns that God will reverse blessing when His people turn to evil.
This same principle applies to us today. Any believers we preach the gospel to and who accept the truth can later turn out to be gold, silver, precious stones, or they can become hay and stubble. Those believers we helped bring to the faith, if they later go on to justify sin and refuse to repent, will be like hay and stubble and will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire, even though we ourselves may be saved through the fire if we remain faithful. In other words, we will not be responsible for their sins if we set them on the right path and remain true to the foundation of Christ.
Side note.
In 1 Corinthians 3, Paul also says, “ye are God’s husbandry,” meaning they are God’s field. This connects directly to Jesus’ Parable of the Weeds in Matthew 13, where the Lord explains what happens inside His kingdom at the time of judgment. Jesus says:
Matthew 13:41-42
“The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity. And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
Here Jesus says, “The Son of man” (this is Jesus), “shall send forth his angels,” and “they shall gather out of ‘his’ kingdom” (Christ’s kingdom, because it says His) “all things that offend, and them which do iniquity” (those who commit sin and refuse repentance), and “shall cast them into a furnace of fire” (the Lake of Fire at the final judgment). Jesus is clearly describing individuals who are inside His kingdom yet continue in sin, and they are gathered out and condemned at the end. Just as a field can produce either wheat or tares, believers who remain in sin can be removed from Christ’s kingdom at the final judgment if they choose iniquity rather than obedience. This fits perfectly with Paul’s warning in 1 Corinthians 3 that the Corinthians, who are God’s field and God’s building, must turn from envy and strife or face destruction.
Both Jeremiah 18 and 1 Corinthians 3 clearly present salvation and continuance in God’s favor as conditional upon one’s response to God. These passages do not allow for unconditional election or eternal security, because God’s warnings are directed toward His people and the consequences depend on their obedience or disobedience. Scripture consistently shows that a believer who chooses iniquity instead of repentance can face destruction or condemnation by God.
,,,,
Therein lies your problem. If God only enables us to make a choice, then salvation is no longer by grace. It is grace plus the work of man. Scripture teaches grace alone.
B
Blue155
Guest
2 Chronicles 19:3 Nevertheless good things are found in you, in that you have removed the wooden images from the land, and have prepared your heart to seek God
2 Chronicles 12:14 And he did evil, because he did not prepare his heart to seek the LORD.
2 Chronicles 30:18 …But Hezekiah prayed for them, saying, “May the good LORD provide atonement for everyone 19 who prepares his heart to seek God, the LORD God of his fathers, though he is not cleansed according to the purification of the sanctuary.”
Ezra 7:10 For Ezra had prepared his heart to seek the Law of the LORD, and to do it, and to teach statutes and ordinances in Israel.
2 Chronicles 12:14 And he did evil, because he did not prepare his heart to seek the LORD.
2 Chronicles 30:18 …But Hezekiah prayed for them, saying, “May the good LORD provide atonement for everyone 19 who prepares his heart to seek God, the LORD God of his fathers, though he is not cleansed according to the purification of the sanctuary.”
Ezra 7:10 For Ezra had prepared his heart to seek the Law of the LORD, and to do it, and to teach statutes and ordinances in Israel.