Loss of salvation???

[vassal]

Interesting observation.



The answer to sin is not law it is grace, that seems to be something they cannot wrap their head around sadly.

When you speak of the law as if it is the enemy of grace, you are repeating the same error the Pharisees made. The Pharisees did not truly follow God’s law. They followed only the letter. They kept rules on the outside but their hearts were cold. Jesus showed this many times.
Jesus said they paid attention to small details but “neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith” in Matthew 23:23. These three things are the heart of the law. Justice means doing what is right. Mercy means showing compassion. Faith means trusting and obeying God. The Pharisees ignored all this while pretending they obeyed Moses.

Jesus also said they were like cups washed on the outside but filthy on the inside, and like whitewashed tombs that look clean but are full of death. Matthew 23:25–28. This shows that they did not love God’s law. They only loved rules that made them look holy.

The real law of God teaches love, compassion, and mercy. Jesus showed this when He said the greatest commandments are to love God and love your neighbor as yourself. Matthew 22:37–40. He said all the Law and the Prophets hang on these two. This means love is the core of the law, not something separate from it.

So when someone claims that the law is against grace, they misunderstand both. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees not because they kept the law, but because they did not keep its heart. They used the law to pride themselves instead of letting it change their hearts.

Grace lifts us up so we can walk in the love, mercy, and compassion that God always wanted. Grace does not destroy the law. Grace writes the law on the heart and leads us to live it with truth and love, just as Jesus taught.

 

[vassal]

Have you read the letters written to Galatians. All scripture must come together with one coherent message for all people.

You do understand that Jesus was talking to his own who were under the law and pointing to himself as the solution to everything that adherence to the law could not accomplish.

You say “all Scripture must come together” yet you begin by pointing to Galatians, which was written long after Jesus walked the earth, and then you use it to correct Jesus’ own words. This is a dangerous step. No writing that came later can overrule the words of the Lord Himself. Jesus is the Master. He is the One who spoke from the Father. His words judge the world. He said this clearly in John 12:48.

You also say that Jesus only spoke to those “under the law,” as if His teachings do not apply to all nations. But Jesus said the opposite. He said the gospel of the Kingdom will be preached “in all the world” as a witness “to all nations” in Matthew 24:14. He said He has “other sheep” not of Israel and that they will hear His voice in John 10:16. He said His words will never pass away in Matthew 24:35. His teaching is not limited to one group. It is eternal and for all people.

You claim Jesus was pointing to Himself as the answer to what the law could not do. But Jesus did not say the law failed. He said the problem was the people, not the law. He said in John 3:19 that people love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil. He said the law’s heart is love, mercy, and justice in Matthew 23:23. He said the two greatest commandments are love for God and love for neighbor, and that “on these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets” in Matthew 22:37–40. That means the law’s core is good, and the failure is in the human heart, not in God’s commandments.

You say Jesus was pointing away from obedience, but Jesus Himself said, “If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments” in Matthew 19:17. These are His own words. Not mine. Not a man’s letter. Not an interpretation. The direct voice of the Lord. He did not say “only believe.” He said obey. He also warned that those who call Him Lord but do not do the will of the Father will not enter the Kingdom in Matthew 7:21. He warned that the person who hears His sayings but does not do them is like a foolish man who built his house on sand, and that house will fall in a great crash. Matthew 7:26–27.

You are using a later letter to silence the words of the Son of God. You are claiming Jesus spoke only to Israel when He said His message is for all nations. You are saying the law failed when Jesus said its heart is love. And you are claiming obedience no longer matters when Jesus said it is required for life.

If your teaching does not agree with Jesus, then your teaching is not truth. Only one voice has full authority, and that voice is His. Listen to Him. He said, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.” Matthew 11:15.

 

[HeIsHere]

When you speak of the law as if it is the enemy of grace, you are repeating the same error the Pharisees made. The Pharisees did not truly follow God’s law. They followed only the letter. They kept rules on the outside but their hearts were cold. Jesus showed this many times.
Jesus said they paid attention to small details but “neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith” in Matthew 23:23. These three things are the heart of the law. Justice means doing what is right. Mercy means showing compassion. Faith means trusting and obeying God. The Pharisees ignored all this while pretending they obeyed Moses.

Jesus also said they were like cups washed on the outside but filthy on the inside, and like whitewashed tombs that look clean but are full of death. Matthew 23:25–28. This shows that they did not love God’s law. They only loved rules that made them look holy.

The real law of God teaches love, compassion, and mercy. Jesus showed this when He said the greatest commandments are to love God and love your neighbor as yourself. Matthew 22:37–40. He said all the Law and the Prophets hang on these two. This means love is the core of the law, not something separate from it.

So when someone claims that the law is against grace, they misunderstand both. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees not because they kept the law, but because they did not keep its heart. They used the law to pride themselves instead of letting it change their hearts.

Grace lifts us up so we can walk in the love, mercy, and compassion that God always wanted. Grace does not destroy the law. Grace writes the law on the heart and leads us to live it with truth and love, just as Jesus taught.

I think the topic how does one receive eternal life.
I have not read all your posts, but from what I have read you seem to be asserting that eternal life is received by obeying the ten commandments?

 

[HeIsHere]

You say “all Scripture must come together” yet you begin by pointing to Galatians, which was written long after Jesus walked the earth, and then you use it to correct Jesus’ own words. This is a dangerous step. No writing that came later can overrule the words of the Lord Himself. Jesus is the Master. He is the One who spoke from the Father. His words judge the world. He said this clearly in John 12:48.

You also say that Jesus only spoke to those “under the law,” as if His teachings do not apply to all nations. But Jesus said the opposite. He said the gospel of the Kingdom will be preached “in all the world” as a witness “to all nations” in Matthew 24:14. He said He has “other sheep” not of Israel and that they will hear His voice in John 10:16. He said His words will never pass away in Matthew 24:35. His teaching is not limited to one group. It is eternal and for all people.

You claim Jesus was pointing to Himself as the answer to what the law could not do. But Jesus did not say the law failed. He said the problem was the people, not the law. He said in John 3:19 that people love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil. He said the law’s heart is love, mercy, and justice in Matthew 23:23. He said the two greatest commandments are love for God and love for neighbor, and that “on these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets” in Matthew 22:37–40. That means the law’s core is good, and the failure is in the human heart, not in God’s commandments.

You say Jesus was pointing away from obedience, but Jesus Himself said, “If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments” in Matthew 19:17. These are His own words. Not mine. Not a man’s letter. Not an interpretation. The direct voice of the Lord. He did not say “only believe.” He said obey. He also warned that those who call Him Lord but do not do the will of the Father will not enter the Kingdom in Matthew 7:21. He warned that the person who hears His sayings but does not do them is like a foolish man who built his house on sand, and that house will fall in a great crash. Matthew 7:26–27.

You are using a later letter to silence the words of the Son of God. You are claiming Jesus spoke only to Israel when He said His message is for all nations. You are saying the law failed when Jesus said its heart is love. And you are claiming obedience no longer matters when Jesus said it is required for life.

If your teaching does not agree with Jesus, then your teaching is not truth. Only one voice has full authority, and that voice is His. Listen to Him. He said, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.” Matthew 11:15.

His words are for all but they must understood in context of the audience to whom he was speaking. Hermeneutics 101

 

[BillyBob]

From loss-of-salvation

When I think back to ten years ago, this message board was mostly dominated by people who rightly understood Ephesians 2:8-9 as the summit statement of salvation which means salvation is secure in Christ, now it is mostly "the salvation is not complete crowd I must add to it"

From can-we-really-exercise-free-will

Yes when I write about Calvin's god I try to remember to use a small "g"

Will the real HeIsHere please stand up!

 

[HeIsHere]

From loss-of-salvation


From can-we-really-exercise-free-will



Will the real HeIsHere please stand up!

Scripture supports salvation is secure, I do not need to adhere to TULIP to know it is true.

 

[Ouch]

With absolute certainty I can say there is only one gospel message, the one Jesus gave us and all the apostles, like I said you cannot see it now, this is closed to you and you will not understand until you do the will of God, then perhaps if it is his will he will open your understanding.

All I told you is from the biblical texts unadulterated in any way, I always use clear teaching from Christ that need no interpretation. your lack of understanding is on you and you only.

You sure have you work cut out for you if your going to change his mind at all.

Do you think all we have to do is keep the 10 comments to be saved?

Is there anything else?

 

[vassal]

I think the topic how does one receive eternal life.
I have not read all your posts, but from what I have read you seem to be asserting that eternal life is received by obeying the ten commandments?

Jesus is asserting that to have eternal life you have to keep the Ten Commandment YES!, His own words in your bible!

Matthew 19(nkjv)
16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good[a] Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”


17 So He said to him, [b]“Why do you call Me good? [c]No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”


18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

yes you have to keep the Ten Commandments that are the Covenant!

 

[BillyBob]

You sure have you work cut out for you if your going to change his mind at all.

Do you think all we have to do is keep the 10 comments to be saved?

Is there anything else?

Saved or not save - good luck keeping keep 10 commandments perfectly!

 

[vassal]

You sure have you work cut out for you if your going to change his mind at all.

Do you think all we have to do is keep the 10 comments to be saved?

Is there anything else?

keeping the Commandments is a start for many, when we who believe in Jesus do follow them because we love God, our heart is transformed and we seek to do good aground us wherever we can in all manners possible. Jesus gave examples of this;
Matthew 25:35–36
“For I was hungry and you gave Me food. I was thirsty and you gave Me drink. I was a stranger and you took Me in. I was naked and you clothed Me. I was sick and you visited Me. I was in prison and you came to Me.”

as for the work yes it is most difficult but the lord teaches is that if they do not receive his words, to leave. all I can do is tell them the truth from scripture from there people have to make a choice, we all have free will.

Deu 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
Deu 11:27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
Deu 11:28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

and

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Deu 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

and

Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Deu 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

 

[vassal]

Scripture supports salvation is secure, I do not need to adhere to TULIP to know it is true.

not true salvation is not secure!

 

[HeIsHere]

Jesus is asserting that to have eternal life you have to keep the Ten Commandment YES!, His own words in your bible!

Matthew 19(nkjv)
16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good[a] Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”


17 So He said to him, [b]“Why do you call Me good? [c]No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”


18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

yes you have to keep the Ten Commandments that are the Covenant!

We have no common ground from which to discuss this topic.

 

[vassal]

His words are for all but they must understood in context of the audience to whom he was speaking. Hermeneutics 101

Jews first yes but he did send his disciples to all the world to the gentiles and they did. they were teaching all jesus did and said see chapters called the great commission in your bible in acts peter declares he was chosen by god to preach to the Gentiles so they Would believe.

 

[vassal]

We have no common ground from which to discuss this topic.

that is on you and only you to refuse the words of Jesus. they were very clear, are you certain you want to take this path of disobedience?


If ye love me, keep my commandments. (john 14:15)
if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.(mat 19:17)

people have to make a choice, we all have free will.

Deu 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
Deu 11:27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
Deu 11:28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

and

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Deu 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

and

Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Deu 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

 

[vassal]

Saved or not save - good luck keeping keep 10 commandments perfectly!

Why dont you start to keep them, the lord will make it possible just try and see, why would have he given us commandments is no one could keep them? they are not a burden really.

Here are the Ten Commandments as given by God in Exodus 20:1–17, NKJV, written in simple and clear words:

1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2. You shall not make idols or bow down to them.
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Honor your father and your mother.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10. You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor.

1 John 5:3, NKJV
“For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.”

 

[vassal]

Scripture supports salvation is secure, I do not need to adhere to TULIP to know it is true.

salvation is NOT secure;

Jesus had a lot to say about and this taught that the path to eternal life is narrow and that few find it. In Matthew 7:13-14, He said;
"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."

This shows that salvation is not guaranteed for everyone, and only those who stay faithful and follow His teachings will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Jesus also warned that some would hear the word and believe for a while, but eventually fall away. In the Parable of the Sower, He explained;
"But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles." (Matthew 13:20-21).
This illustrates that some will start their walk with God but will not persevere when faced with trials or temptations.

In John 15:6, Jesus made it even clearer, saying;
"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."
Here, Jesus compares Himself to a vine and believers as branches. A branch must remain connected to the vine to stay alive and bear fruit. If a person disconnects from Christ through disobedience or unbelief, they wither spiritually and face eternal judgment.

The original apostles also confirmed this truth. Peter warned in 2 Peter 2:20-21;
"For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them."
This shows that a person who was once saved and returns to sin is in a worse condition than before they knew the truth.

James also affirmed this truth when he said;
"Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins."
(James 5:19-20).
This verse reveals that a believer can wander away from the truth and face spiritual death unless they repent and return to God.

The Bible does provide examples of those who lost their salvation. Judas Iscariot was one of the twelve apostles chosen by Jesus, yet he betrayed the Lord for thirty pieces of silver. Jesus Himself said about Judas;
"It would have been good for that man if he had not been born." (Matthew 26:24).
This shows that Judas was once in the faith but fell away and was lost.

Another example is Balaam, a prophet who once heard from God but later led Israel into sin for personal gain. Peter referred to him, saying,
"They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor." (2 Peter 2:15). King Saul is yet another example; he was chosen and anointed by God but later disobeyed and rebelled, and the Spirit of God departed from him (1 Samuel 16:14)

Jesus' words make it clear that salvation is not a one-time event but requires endurance and faithfulness until the end. As He said in Matthew 24:13, "But he who endures to the end shall be saved." Therefore, those who abide in Christ, obey His commandments, and remain faithful will receive eternal life. However, those who turn away from Him and return to sin risk losing their salvation and facing eternal separation from God: "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."Rev 14:12

 

[HeIsHere]

salvation is NOT secure;

Jesus had a lot to say about and this taught that the path to eternal life is narrow and that few find it. In Matthew 7:13-14, He said;
"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."

This shows that salvation is not guaranteed for everyone, and only those who stay faithful and follow His teachings will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Jesus also warned that some would hear the word and believe for a while, but eventually fall away. In the Parable of the Sower, He explained;
"But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles." (Matthew 13:20-21).
This illustrates that some will start their walk with God but will not persevere when faced with trials or temptations.

In John 15:6, Jesus made it even clearer, saying;
"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."
Here, Jesus compares Himself to a vine and believers as branches. A branch must remain connected to the vine to stay alive and bear fruit. If a person disconnects from Christ through disobedience or unbelief, they wither spiritually and face eternal judgment.

The original apostles also confirmed this truth. Peter warned in 2 Peter 2:20-21;
"For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them."
This shows that a person who was once saved and returns to sin is in a worse condition than before they knew the truth.

James also affirmed this truth when he said;
"Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins."
(James 5:19-20).
This verse reveals that a believer can wander away from the truth and face spiritual death unless they repent and return to God.

The Bible does provide examples of those who lost their salvation. Judas Iscariot was one of the twelve apostles chosen by Jesus, yet he betrayed the Lord for thirty pieces of silver. Jesus Himself said about Judas;
"It would have been good for that man if he had not been born." (Matthew 26:24).
This shows that Judas was once in the faith but fell away and was lost.

Another example is Balaam, a prophet who once heard from God but later led Israel into sin for personal gain. Peter referred to him, saying,
"They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor." (2 Peter 2:15). King Saul is yet another example; he was chosen and anointed by God but later disobeyed and rebelled, and the Spirit of God departed from him (1 Samuel 16:14)

Jesus' words make it clear that salvation is not a one-time event but requires endurance and faithfulness until the end. As He said in Matthew 24:13, "But he who endures to the end shall be saved." Therefore, those who abide in Christ, obey His commandments, and remain faithful will receive eternal life. However, those who turn away from Him and return to sin risk losing their salvation and facing eternal separation from God: "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."Rev 14:12

I am convinced that I am saved by grace through faith and salvation is not by my effort but received because I believed, it is the gift of God— no one can boast.

I will never be persuaded by your rhetoric and verses out of context. I am secure in Christ.

 

[BillyBob]

1 John 5:3, NKJV
“For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.”

1 John 1:8

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I am convinced that I am saved by grace through faith and salvation is not by my effort but received because I believed, it is the gift of God— no one can boast.

I will never be persuaded by your rhetoric and verses out of context. I am secure in Christ.

This illustrates the difference between trying to earn a salvation through works that isn't secure, and guarding a salvation that is secure in Christ through faith

 

[HeIsHere]

This illustrates the difference between trying to earn a salvation through works that isn't secure, and guarding a salvation that is secure in Christ through faith

If it is secure it does not need to be guarded.