Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Genez]

So every sinner who is not evil must be good, right? There's such an animal out there as good sinners.

For example?

The way you twist things is evil.

 

[Rufus]

Not really, grace is a free gift from God

Ephesians 2:8

Please dont bother to reply this post.

You mean you're not going to search the entire bible to see if God gives grace to the proud or the wicked? I have a whole bunch of passages about grace and humility and how they go together like hand-in-glove. But I suspect you would not be interested in those either, right?

 

[Rufus]

For example?

The way you twist things is evil.

Blame your low hanging fruit and incoherent posts. They get the replies they deserve.

 

[Rufus]

Suppose you found an ad in the paper that went out to everyone. The ad said “Hi! If you’re reading this ad, you have been called to receive a free prize on Friday. All you need to do from now until then is highlight the ad with a red highlighter, then come to the local mall at two o’clock with the ad highlighted in red. At 2:05, a bell will sound alerting the workers to give the prize. You will receive the prize due to meeting the call and its conditions in the ad.”

Now here’s the question: What was chosen/predestined?

Was it all the people who showed up at the mall?

Or was it the ad and its conditions, as well as the prize?

Clearly, what was chosen/predestined was the “plan”. The plan of how to receive the free prize, neither of which was deserved or earned. That was by grace. The result of meeting the conditions was the free prize. Both was not of works. It was based on grace. The “ad” describing how to receive the prize went out to everyone, but only those who “answered” the ad received the prize.

The plan (the ad and its conditions) and the result (receiving the prize) was foreknown, predestined, and ordained by the mall. The mall did not predestine or ordain man’s response to the call/plan/ad. The people at the mall foreknew not all would come, but they left it up to all to make their choice. Their foreknowledge did not cause anyone to come or not come. The plan and result was fixed before anyone responded.

Just as the mall predestined what would happen to whoever showed up, God predestined what would happen to whoever is in Christ—they will be adopted, justified, conformed, and glorified. And that’s the way it is with the gospel plan of salvation. God gave us the way to be saved through Jesus and the gospel. The gospel call goes out to and is for everyone (Rms. 1:16). The way to be saved through Christ (obedience to the gospel call and following Him, Acts 2:38-39; 2 Thess. 2:14; Heb. 5:9; Jn. 10:27-28) and the result (promise of salvation, eternal life, the eternal inheritance) is what has been foreknown, predestined, ordained (Eph. 1:11; 1 Peter 1:1-5; Titus 1:1-2). Man’s response, however, was not. God did not predestine, ordain or predetermine man’s response to the gospel. He left that up to man to decide (2 Tim. 2:21-22). God foreknew not everyone would come to Jesus to be saved (Mt. 7:21), so many are called by the gospel denote all kinds of people and ethnicity: Jew/Gentile, rich, poor, male, female slave, free (Acts 2:17-18; Gal. 3:28). But because not everyone chooses to answer the gospel call (2 Thess. 2:14; Acts 2:39 that is for all humanity (Mk. 16:15) few are chosen.

For those who have answered and responded to the gospel call of salvation, it has been foreknown and predestined that those who done so would be conformed to the image of His Son, as well as justified, and glorified. Those who are called were called by the gospel, and those who He called are Christians/the church/the body of believers. He has predestined, elected and conformed the church to be the image of His Son, as the church is the fulness of Jesus (Eph. 1:23). The result of being a Christian is what was elected/foreknown/predestined, which is adoption as sons by Jesus Christ (Eph. 1:5). The result of answering the call to be the chosen in God’s elect—Jesus (1 Peter 2:6; Isaiah 42:1) is to be holy and without blame before Him in love (Eph. 1:4).

You still can't prove that from the bible. You're still stuck hopelessly on your presuppositions.

 

[Jordon]

The called?
Those are saved people.

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; ​

those he justified, he also glorified. Romans 8:30​

And?

Out all of those whom He saved?
Only few have been chosen to reign with Him.
To reign because they were faithful to fully mature in Christ.

Many of the called not chosen are the ones who never reached spiritual maturity.
But they will remain being saved just the same!
We can not lose our salvation.


..............

I'm not sure why your disagreeing here m,

I was implying all are called in one way or another the ones who are saved are the ones handed to Christ

Many are called is the same as you are all one in Christ when saved.

If your chosen your saved

Called

Everyone is called by the father.


Chosen those whom the father hands over to Christ.


Called

The father for-knowing everyone pricking there conscience with his sovereign will of for-knowing everyone before the foundations of the world

Chosen handed to Christ
Election adoption pre-destined


Neither Jew nor gentile nor male nor female you are all one in Christ


No mention of calvinist in this election

 

[Rufus]

My next question is what free will are we talking about here?

The one that hopelessly and helplessly enslaved to its nature, of course.

 

[Jackson129]

Only if He can undie for our sins.
For it would be some sin he would take us out for.

Or, did God forget some sin to pour upon Jesus?

I guess to better understand you I would ask what you get out of that verse? What do you think he means by God will take away your part in the book of life?

 

[Jordon]

No one uses it stateside.
It can get confusing to us like thinking your pinky keeps accidently tapping the m before posting.

Got that, mate?

oh ok m got it mate.

But us Brits like to call people mate.

Anyhoo I've been for-knowing you all along

 

[cv5]

Suppose you found an ad in the paper that went out to everyone. The ad said “Hi! If you’re reading this ad, you have been called to receive a free prize on Friday. All you need to do from now until then is highlight the ad with a red highlighter, then come to the local mall at two o’clock with the ad highlighted in red. At 2:05, a bell will sound alerting the workers to give the prize. You will receive the prize due to meeting the call and its conditions in the ad.”

Now here’s the question: What was chosen/predestined?

Was it all the people who showed up at the mall?

Or was it the ad and its conditions, as well as the prize?

Clearly, what was chosen/predestined was the “plan”. The plan of how to receive the free prize, neither of which was deserved or earned. That was by grace. The result of meeting the conditions was the free prize. Both was not of works. It was based on grace. The “ad” describing how to receive the prize went out to everyone, but only those who “answered” the ad received the prize.

The plan (the ad and its conditions) and the result (receiving the prize) was foreknown, predestined, and ordained by the mall. The mall did not predestine or ordain man’s response to the call/plan/ad. The people at the mall foreknew not all would come, but they left it up to all to make their choice. Their foreknowledge did not cause anyone to come or not come. The plan and result was fixed before anyone responded.

Just as the mall predestined what would happen to whoever showed up, God predestined what would happen to whoever is in Christ—they will be adopted, justified, conformed, and glorified. And that’s the way it is with the gospel plan of salvation. God gave us the way to be saved through Jesus and the gospel. The gospel call goes out to and is for everyone (Rms. 1:16). The way to be saved through Christ (obedience to the gospel call and following Him, Acts 2:38-39; 2 Thess. 2:14; Heb. 5:9; Jn. 10:27-28) and the result (promise of salvation, eternal life, the eternal inheritance) is what has been foreknown, predestined, ordained (Eph. 1:11; 1 Peter 1:1-5; Titus 1:1-2). Man’s response, however, was not. God did not predestine, ordain or predetermine man’s response to the gospel. He left that up to man to decide (2 Tim. 2:21-22). God foreknew not everyone would come to Jesus to be saved (Mt. 7:21), so many are called by the gospel denote all kinds of people and ethnicity: Jew/Gentile, rich, poor, male, female slave, free (Acts 2:17-18; Gal. 3:28). But because not everyone chooses to answer the gospel call (2 Thess. 2:14; Acts 2:39 that is for all humanity (Mk. 16:15) few are chosen.

For those who have answered and responded to the gospel call of salvation, it has been foreknown and predestined that those who done so would be conformed to the image of His Son, as well as justified, and glorified. Those who are called were called by the gospel, and those who He called are Christians/the church/the body of believers. He has predestined, elected and conformed the church to be the image of His Son, as the church is the fulness of Jesus (Eph. 1:23). The result of being a Christian is what was elected/foreknown/predestined, which is adoption as sons by Jesus Christ (Eph. 1:5). The result of answering the call to be the chosen in God’s elect—Jesus (1 Peter 2:6; Isaiah 42:1) is to be holy and without blame before Him in love (Eph. 1:4).

100% accurate. Good job buddy.....

 

[Me_Clay]

You mean you're not going to search the entire bible to see if God gives grace to the proud or the wicked? I have a whole bunch of passages about grace and humility and how they go together like hand-in-glove. But I suspect you would not be interested in those either, right?

I know what you mean, but we are not God you see

 

[Jordon]

100% accurate. Good job buddy.....

yeah Gods word is a raffle ticket

 

[cv5]

yeah Gods word is a raffle ticket

The analogy in all of it's manifold nuance is pretty much flawless. Buddy.

 

[Jordon]

The analogy in all of it's manifold nuance is pretty much flawless. Buddy.

ok I'll take your word for it.

Dont see how he can leave out certain verses tho, then I guess well seeing as hes very busy to notice i guess that's possible.

I dont see how he can leave out many are called but few are chosen.

Maybe you can still say it's flawless.

 

[Blue155]

100% accurate. Good job buddy.....

And the answering of the ad and meeting the conditions was by faith. Applied biblically, it would be…saved by Grace through Faith. Or…saved by grace through acting and meeting the conditions God has proposed.

Here is something funny. In a debate, James White affirmed that Adam had libertarian free will as a creature. He was asked “Was God still sovereign when you had a man who had libertarian free will?”
White answered “God was still sovereign because he then accomplished his purpose even in Adam. Yes.”

He admitted that God is still sovereign and was accomplishing his purpose and his sovereignty through libertarianly free choices.

Welcome to the non-Calvinist world, Dr. White. Come on over, James. You are quite welcome and loved.

 

[Blue155]

You still can't prove that from the bible. You're still stuck hopelessly on your presuppositions.

?? I just did! did I not, @cv5?

 

[Blue155]

yeah Gods word is a raffle ticket

You’re missing the point. You do know Jesus used analogies, right?

 

[Jordon]

You’re missing the point. You do know Jesus used analogies, right?

figurative speeches lol but he didn't gamble with his word

 

[Blue155]

ok I'll take your word for it.

Dont see how he can leave out certain verses tho, then I guess well seeing as hes very busy to notice i guess that's possible.

I dont see how he can leave out many are called but few are chosen.

Maybe you can still say it's flawless.

The verses I used were the verses Calvinists misuse. The intention of the article I wrote and posted was not to list all or talk about all the verses, just some of those that Calvinists have incorrect in their understanding concerning predestination, choosing, elect, foreknowing and called. Apparently, you did not read my article that well, because you would know I did not leave out Matthew 22:14, as I referenced it. I simply forgot to mention it, unlike I did the others.

 

[GWH]

My next question is what free will are we talking about here?

moral free will (MFW) = the God given ability for all sinners to repent/seek salvation--or not

 

[Jordon]

The verses I used were the verses Calvinists misuse. The intention of the article I wrote and posted was not to list all or talk about all the verses, just some of those that Calvinists have incorrect in their understanding concerning predestination, choosing, elect, foreknowing and called. Apparently, you did not read my article that well, because you would know I did not leave out Matthew 22:14, as I referenced it. I simply forgot to mention it, unlike I did the others.

I know what you did