Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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Blue155 said:
I’m trying to see if I understand your question. First, I agree there is no need for a puppet master. I also agree that God decreed the scheme of redemption, but not eternally decreed man’s choices, as eternally decreeing man’s choices, desires, motives, actions, etc etc would be having Him to eternally decree sin, which it sounds like we are both are in agreement that He did not, making the idea that God can and is still sovereign—as in having supreme authority without having to eternally decree all events, thoughts, desires, intentions, etc. This goes back to the chessboard analogy. God doesn’t have to determine both sides to get His will done. He’s that good. I say all this because, if you are saying man has free will and God is still and always sovereign without having to eternally decree all events, choices, decisions etc, then that has been what I have been saying all along. But if you are saying man has no free will, and God has eternally decreed all events, choices, etc, then that’s not what I’m saying at all.

Do I believe God decreed things? Absolutely.

Do I believe His decrees involve decreeing all of man’s choices, desires, thoughts and actions? No.

If you read my response and you come away thinking I believe Calvinism (even though you say your question wasn’t a pro or con for it) then you misunderstood what I said.
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Great. So let's go back to Acts 2:23 armed with this information. Who does God say is responsible for the death of Jesus?
 
Cameron143 said:
Great. So let's go back to Acts 2:23 armed with this information. Who does God say is responsible for the death of Jesus?
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We would both say Peter is speaking to the Jews and was telling them they had taken Jesus by lawless hands, have crucified and put him to death.
 
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Blue155 said:
Yes, but you were asking me who was responsible for His death.
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That's correct. God determined that Jesus would die, even how He would die, long before it came to pass. There was no way that Jesus wasn't going to be crucified when God determined it to be so. And evil men, making their own choices, brought it to pass.

God can accomplish His decrees without puppets. And this was the point. You claimed Calvinist believed that God must have puppets to accomplish His decrees. They don't believe that. They believe God's decrees can be accomplished by the choices of men.
 
Blue155 said:
😆 don’t kid yourself. The majority of those who believe in Calvinism (despite them saying they do not) despise me 😆
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nar I was being serious, my faith means a lot to, so much I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, but you need stopping being a nutter.

Cuz mate I'm serious people heads get messed when you attack there faith.

Come on mate have a heart, enuf is enuf.

Hec I may even start to like ya as a mate if you do.
 
Cameron143 said:
That's correct. God determined that Jesus would die, even how He would die, long before it came to pass. There was no way that Jesus wasn't going to be crucified when God determined it to be so. And evil men, making their own choices, brought it to pass.

God can accomplish His decrees without puppets. And this was the point. You claimed Calvinist believed that God must have puppets to accomplish His decrees. They don't believe that. They believe God's decrees can be accomplished by the choices of men.
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No. If that is true what you say of Calvinists, then they are not Calvinists. They don’t believe what you say that they do, otherwise they’d be considered a “Free Willer Pelagian heretic”, who believes in the free will of even the unbeliever and believer. And your post does not prove God was responsible for the murder (which is what the crucifixion was) of Jesus.
 
Jordon said:
nar I was being serious, my faith means a lot to, so much I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, but you need stopping being a nutter.

Cuz mate I'm serious people heads get messed when you attack there faith.

Come on mate have a heart, enuf is enuf.

Hec I may even start to like ya as a mate if you do.
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Please tell your age. Are you in your teens, twenties, thirties, forties, fifties, sixties, or beyond?
 
Blue155 said:
No. If that is true what you say of Calvinists, then they are not Calvinists. They don’t believe what you say that they do, otherwise they’d be considered a “Free Willer Pelagian heretic”, who believes in the free will of even the unbeliever and believer. And your post does not prove God was responsible for the murder (which is what the crucifixion was) of Jesus.
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I didn't say anything about freewill. I said choices. And the verse does indeed say God determined that Jesus would be delivered up. He even determined it would be on the cross. When the fulness of time came...this means when God determined...Jesus was sent forth to be born. God orchestrated it all, but also employed the choices men made. This is what the verse teaches.
 
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Cameron143 said:
I didn't say anything about freewill. I said choices. And the verse does indeed say God determined that Jesus would be delivered up. He even determined it would be on the cross. When the fulness of time came...this means when God determined...Jesus was sent forth to be born. God orchestrated it all, but also employed the choices men made. This is what the verse teaches.
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In order to have choices you have to have free will, otherwise you are back to saying God has puppets and He is the puppet-master, but you have already conceded this point. The part of the verse that says “Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God…” as well as the verse you alluded to in Galatians, does not, in any way shape or form mean that God was or is responsible for the murder of Jesus. What the verse is teaching is God planned the plan of how to be saved from sin, but not the sinful, murderous actions of man. Those are two very big different things.

For your view of Acts 2:23 to be correct, Peter would need to have said “you and God have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death” but he didn’t. And if God was responsible for that, then would He not be responsible for murder? To even think that is appalling, as murder directly contradicts with His nature (1 John 1:5; Ps. 5:4)

Furthermore, Jesus Himself said “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. “No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.” (Jn. 10:17-18)

For your view of Acts 2:23 to be correct, Jesus would have needed to say in those verses in John 10:17-18 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because he has taking my life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but my Father.” But He did not say that.

Jesus also said “Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends” (Jn. 15:13).

For your view of Acts 2:23 to be correct, Jesus should have said “Greater love has no one than this, than my Father to lay down my life and take it from His friends.”

Paul said “who [speaking of Jesus] gave Himself for us…” (Titus 2:14)

For your view of Acts 2:23 to be correct, Paul should have said “who gave Himself for us to be murdered by the Jews, Romans and His Father” but Paul didn’t say that.

Those verses above teach the Father didn’t take Jesus’ life, rather, Jesus laid down His life voluntarily out of love.

Your understanding of Acts 2:23 is incorrect.
 
Blue155 said:
In order to have choices you have to have free will, otherwise you are back to saying God has puppets and He is the puppet-master, but you have already conceded this point. The part of the verse that says “Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God…” as well as the verse you alluded to in Galatians, does not, in any way shape or form mean that God was or is responsible for the murder of Jesus. What the verse is teaching is God planned the plan of how to be saved from sin, but not the sinful, murderous actions of man. Those are two very big different things.

For your view of Acts 2:23 to be correct, Peter would need to have said “you and God have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death” but he didn’t. And if God was responsible for that, then would He not be responsible for murder? To even think that is appalling, as murder directly contradicts with His nature (1 John 1:5; Ps. 5:4)

Furthermore, Jesus Himself said “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. “No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.” (Jn. 10:17-18)

For your view of Acts 2:23 to be correct, Jesus would have needed to say in those verses in John 10:17-18 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because he has taking my life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but my Father.” But He did not say that.

Jesus also said “Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends” (Jn. 15:13).

For your view of Acts 2:23 to be correct, Jesus should have said “Greater love has no one than this, than my Father to lay down my life and take it from His friends.”

Paul said “who [speaking of Jesus] gave Himself for us…” (Titus 2:14)

For your view of Acts 2:23 to be correct, Paul should have said “who gave Himself for us to be murdered by the Jews, Romans and His Father” but Paul didn’t say that.

Those verses above teach the Father didn’t take Jesus’ life, rather, Jesus laid down His life voluntarily out of love.

Your understanding of Acts 2:23 is incorrect.
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Choice and freewill are linked but not synonymous. Dogs make choices. Do you believe dogs have freewill?
 
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