Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Blue155]

i see you have a good vocabulary of silly jokes, but the thing is when you have an active sword in you it can cut through any trap you lay

Coming from someone who doesn’t believe we have free will until we are saved? That’s rich!!

I’m through with you and your nonsense. Good riddance.

 

[sawdust]

God has shown them through creation. It is revelation through the things that are seen. It is not revelation of the person of Christ by the Father.

Revelation of the things of God...the invisible things and the Godhead...are insufficient for salvation anyway.

Jesus is building His church through the revelation of the Father of the person of Jesus as Messiah.

It is God who has shown them, they have not come to it from their own intellect. Revelation for the purposes of drawing people to Christ do not have to include Jesus as the Messiah. People must first learn God exists then they must learn He is benevolent, good and gracious. The revelation of Christ as Saviour is the culmination point of being drawn.

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

You are mistaking the point of salvation with the road to get there.

 

[Jordon]

Coming from someone who doesn’t believe we have free will until we are saved? That’s rich!!

I’m through with you and your nonsense. Good riddance.

a fool always reveals his volley in the end.

And a bully when confronted craps himself in the end.

And the word of God is alive and active able to cut through you your way and your will.

But if you get to far gone in your free will there may be weeping and knashing of the teeth.

Because in order to be saved you have live by his will

 

[Jordon]

Biblically a regenerated bastard

are you going to take this comment back ?

 

[Cameron143]

The drawing of God begins at what is called God consciousness.
Its progressive. Not one dimensional
The last phase is the Father handing the ones who remained positive to the drawing, over to Christ.

That depends. If the God-consciousness results from conscience or a consideration of creation, it may or may not be God drawing. And you are correct that it is usually progressive and even much more involved at times. But the point God turns someone over to Christ is the point when the Father has revealed Christ to them...upon this rock I will build my church. It's also not the individual themselves driving the interest, but God Himself. Otherwise, grace plus continued interest on the part of the individual equals salvation.

 

[Cameron143]

You said "I knew" like I was an eyewitness to him on the cross dying for me.
Faith is not an eyewitness. It just knows.

You knew because God revealed it to you.

I never intimated that you were an eye witness. You came up with that yourself.

 

[Cameron143]

It is God who has shown them, they have not come to it from their own intellect. Revelation for the purposes of drawing people to Christ do not have to include Jesus as the Messiah. People must first learn God exists then they must learn He is benevolent, good and gracious. The revelation of Christ as Saviour is the culmination point of being drawn.

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

You are mistaking the point of salvation with the road to get there.

All people know that God exists. That's the point of Romans 1, and is why everyone is accountable before God. But they don't know from God coming to them and communicating it to them. They know because they see creation and intuit the existence of God through what they see. They also know because of conscience. God has placed eternity in their hearts. None of this requires faith.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Well I haven't spoken to him personally, but I believe he is saying that we are at liberty to choose either right or wrong. But only have the ability to please God once He has changed us and restored our ability to do so. I believe that Adam had both the liberty and ability to please God, but freely chose not to.
That's my understanding of his statement.

k ... thanks ... I just wanted to make sure I understood what he meant. I do believe those who are not born again do not always go against their conscience and thereby do not always do evil ... they can do some good. However, that does not result in salvation.

... and in agreement about good works once we are born again.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I disagree that someone not saved has the law written on their hearts. After all, having the law written on one's heart is the new covenant promise to God's people.

Romans 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)

They must be saved.

do you believe the work of the law written in the the heart spoken of in Rom 2:14-15 is the same as the law written in the heart spoken of in the new covenant? I do not believe it is the same.

The carnal man is not subject to the law and cannot be according Romans 8:7.

natural man does not sin against the law of God 24/7/365. In other words, there are some who are not born again who believe it is wrong to steal and, therefore, they do not steal. But this does not absolve them when other commandments are not kept.

.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Look if you can't even admit that huh means you don't like something do you think i should take your rhetoric serious.

Jordon ... "huh" with a question mark after it is a question ... it is not an expression of scorn.

Me_Clay said: "I am not a fan of reformer, Jesus tells us they never reformed."​

​

Dino said: "Huh?"​

Dino was asking Clay to clarify what was meant ...

from Mirriam Webster dictionary:

The meaning of HUH is —used to express surprise, disbelief, or confusion, or as an inquiry inviting affirmative reply.​

.

 

[Dino246]

That does not apply to you today!!!

Actually, it does. Believers today have the same authority over the forces of evil that the disciples had. What Jordon gets wrong is that he thinks he has authority over other people.

 

[Cameron143]

Romans 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)





do you believe the work of the law written in the the heart spoken of in Rom 2:14-15 is the same as the law written in the heart spoken of in the new covenant? I do not believe it is the same.





natural man does not sin against the law of God 24/7/365. In other words, there are some who are not born again who believe it is wrong to steal and, therefore, they do not steal. But this does not absolve them when other commandments are not kept.

.

It says...when they do. It doesn't say they always do.

If they are obeying, they do. If they aren't saved, they are in a state of carnality and are not subject to the law.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

It says...when they do. It doesn't say they always do.

no one "always" does ... not even born again believers ...

If they are obeying, they do. If they aren't saved, they are in a state of carnality and are not subject to the law.

Again ... do you believe the work of the law written in the the heart spoken of in Rom 2:14-15 is the same as the law written in the heart spoken of in the new covenant?

I do not believe the work of the law written in the the heart is the same the law written in the heart ...

and I believe God has placed the work of the law in all mankind ... all descendants of Adam, but God writes His law in the hearts of those who are believers and that only occurs after they have believed in Him.


.

 

[Cameron143]

no one "always" does ... not even born again believers ...





Again ... do you believe the work of the law written in the the heart spoken of in Rom 2:14-15 is the same as the law written in the heart spoken of in the new covenant?

I do not believe the work of the law written in the the heart is the same the law written in the heart ...

and I believe God has placed the work of the law in all mankind ... all descendants of Adam, but God writes His law in the hearts of those who are believers and that only occurs after they have believed in Him.


.

I do believe they are the same, but it's immaterial to the conversation. Unbelievers are in a constant state of carnality. They are not subject to the law and cannot be. This is not true of those who have the law written upon their hearts.

 

[Magenta]

I do believe they are the same, but it's immaterial to the conversation. Unbelievers are in a constant state of carnality.
They are not subject to the law and cannot be. This is not true of those who have the law written upon their hearts.

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom (2 Cor ch 3 v 17). If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ (Rom 8 v 9b). The world cannot receive the Spirit of truth, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him (from John 14 v 17). Those not in Christ are not free (see Heb 2 v 15). Praise God if He has rescued you from the dominion of darkness! (see Col 1 v 13)

 

[Magenta]

All people know that God exists. That's the point of Romans 1, and is why everyone is accountable before God. But they don't know from God coming to them and communicating it to them. They know because they see creation and intuit the existence of God through what they see. They also know because of conscience. God has placed eternity in their hearts. None of this requires faith.

Ecclesiastes 3 v 11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men, yet they cannot fathom the work that God has done from beginning to end.

 

[Rufus]

hold on a sec, he simply knows yes that's true, but that still doesn't imply it has nothing to do with him for-knowing us. As we still have to live out what he knows about us.

The fact that we sin was never his will, we sin because we corrupted the seed by not listening to his will which he simply knew but he was still knowing Adam when he did it.

For-knowing means he already knew,. So in both instances God is living out what he already knows, but he knows what he knows, man is living out what God knows but he doesn't know what God knows.


prescience or for-knowledge are both the same meaning m

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

You can't remove for-knowing from what he already simply knew for him. Because we still have to live out what he knows

You can remove it for you but not for him.

Foreknowing in scripture means God knows BEFORE the beginning of time, hence the prefix "fore". Foreknowing is NOT knowing things about the elect; it's knowing the elect in an intimate, personal, affectionate way. Big difference. If foreknowing was merely about prescience (God knowing things about people), then Mat 7:23 would be teaching that Christ on the last day will not possess the attribute of omniscience.

See how the term Gr. term "ginosko" (Strong's 1097) is used in the KJV or ASV versions:

Matt 1:25
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
KJV

And,

Luke 1:34
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
KJV

There are also examples of this kind of usage in the OT.

 

[Rufus]

@Rufus im struggling here

Are you saying God has willed people to sin by not electing them before he forknew them

I'm saying that all those with whom God had no personal, intimate, affectionate, covenantal knowledge, he simply chose to let them remain in their sin in Adam. While it's not God's preceptive will for any to sin, it's also not God's decretive will to save all people on the planet in the distributive sense.

 

[Genez]

are you saved if your under the control of your free will

Why is that a legitimate question?
Tell us why.

 

[Genez]

I have more authority than you,

Jordon.... you sound like a radically brainwashed college student.