Acts 2:38 Comparison: Evangelical vs. Oneness / Baptismal-Regeneration View

[LightBearer316]

2 Corinthians 4:2 (KJV):

“But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.”​

So when someone twists or distorts Scripture to make it fit their system — taking verses out of context, redefining plain meanings, or ignoring passages that don’t agree with their view — that’s handling the Word deceitfully.

Grace and Peace

 

[studier]

I’ve already addressed the core of post #443 — your claim that obedience and faith are grammatically or functionally equivalent.

Romans 4:5, Hebrews 11, and Ephesians 2:8–9 KJV all show that obedience flows from faith, not that they’re the same cause of justification.

If you redefine “equivalence” so that faith and obedience are inseparable causes, you’ve effectively made obedience a co-cause of justification — no amount of grammatical softening changes that. That’s precisely what Paul rejects in Romans 4:5 KJV.

“To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” — Romans 4:5 KJV​

That’s not a strawman — that’s Scripture directly distinguishing the two categories.

Grace and peace
Acts 17:11 (KJV)
“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”

You have not addressed the core of post #443. You’ve simply repeated a contrary conclusion while continually ignoring the actual textual premises that establish it. Simply asserting “faith -> obedience” does not engage the passages where Scripture treats believing and obeying the gospel as equivalent and inseparable. The verses you reference do not demonstrate that faith is separate from obedience - at best, they are an argument from silence. Addressing only the conclusion while bypassing the supporting texts is not addressing the argument; it is simply asserting a contrary conclusion apart from engaging the underlying data. Would you like to start at Rom10:16 or Heb3?

 

[studier]

So when someone twists or distorts Scripture to make it fit their system — taking verses out of context, redefining plain meanings, or ignoring passages that don’t agree with their view — that’s handling the Word deceitfully.

Agree as I understand you, which at minimum is why I've been repeatedly pointing out how you're ignoring the details of #443. Ready to begin tackling some of them?

 

[LightBearer316]

You have not addressed the core of post #443. You’ve simply repeated a contrary conclusion while continually ignoring the actual textual premises that establish it. Simply asserting “faith -> obedience” does not engage the passages where Scripture treats believing and obeying the gospel as equivalent and inseparable. The verses you reference do not demonstrate that faith is separate from obedience - at best, they are an argument from silence. Addressing only the conclusion while bypassing the supporting texts is not addressing the argument; it is simply asserting a contrary conclusion apart from engaging the underlying data. Would you like to start at Rom10:16 or Heb3?

Studier, I’ve already dealt directly with the premise of your #443 post — not by silence, but by showing where Scripture itself draws the distinction.

Paul doesn’t treat obedience and faith as “inseparable causes” of justification; he defines one as the basis and the other as the result:

“To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” (Romans 4:5 KJV)​

​

That’s not an argument from silence — it’s an explicit contrast in the text.
Faith is counted for righteousness; obedience follows righteousness.

If you make obedience an inseparable cause, you’ve turned the fruit into the root. Paul’s entire point in Romans 4–5, Galatians 2–3, and Ephesians 2:8–9 is that grace saves through faith apart from works, so that obedience may display what faith has already received.

As Paul told Timothy,

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God… rightly dividing the word of truth.” (2 Timothy 2:15 KJV)​

When we rightly divide, we harmonize Scripture — we don’t tear it apart to merge what God has already distinguished.

Grace and peace.

 

[LightBearer316]

Agree as I understand you, which at minimum is why I've been repeatedly pointing out how you're ignoring the details of #443. Ready to begin tackling some of them?

Fair enough, but notice — I’ve been addressing the text itself, not just a framework built around it. Romans 4:5 isn’t an optional “detail” — it’s Paul’s inspired definition of justification by faith apart from works.

If obedience were equivalent or inseparable from faith in the causal sense, Paul couldn’t write:

“To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” (Romans 4:5 KJV)​

That single verse already sets the boundary: faith is counted for righteousness, obedience follows as the fruit of righteousness.

We can look at any passage you’d like, but it all has to harmonize with that foundation — because that’s rightly dividing the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15 KJV).

Grace and peace

 

[studier]

Studier, I’ve already dealt directly with the premise of your #443 post — not by silence, but by showing where Scripture itself draws the distinction.

Shall we begin at Rom10:16 or Heb3?

 

[LightBearer316]

Shall we begin at Rom10:16 or Heb3?

We can certainly look at either passage, but any reading has to stay consistent with Paul’s clear foundation:

“To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” — Romans 4:5 KJV​

That’s not a peripheral verse; it’s the core definition of justification. Whatever we conclude about obedience in Romans 10 or Hebrews 3, it can’t overturn what Paul already made explicit — faith is counted for righteousness, and obedience flows from that righteousness.

When we rightly divide the Word (2 Timothy 2:15), we harmonize Scripture — not flatten distinctions God Himself makes.

So yes, we can examine those texts — but let’s do it in light of the passage where Paul defines justification, not redefine it by secondary ones.

Grace and peace.

 

[LightBearer316]

Romans 4:5 ​

fairuse: Excerpt used for educational purposes only:
(Fire Bible Study Notes) 4:5 FAITH IS CREDITED AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. It was Abraham’s faith, not simply his actions, that made him right with God and gave him the power to do what was right by God’s standard. God recognizes saving faith–the kind that enables a person to receive forgiveness and enter a personal relationship with God–on an equal level with righteousness in its effect in the believer’s life. That is to say, when someone is spiritually saved, God “credits” him or her as righteous (i.e., right with God). When God calls someone “righteous,” he is saying that he or she is spiritually saved and in a right relationship with him.

(1) Paul speaks of “crediting as righteousness” or “crediting righteousness” six times in ch. 4. In all cases, Paul associates faith or belief with this situation: it is the believer’s “faith” that is credited as “righteousness” (vv. 3, 5-6, 9, 11, 22, 24; see Ge 15:6, note). See Jn 1:12; 5:24, notes about what it means to truly “believe” in God.

(2) The opportunity and ability to have a right relationship with God is not solely the result of our faith or commitment to Christ. Above all, it is an act of God’s grace and mercy (see 4:16, note, for brief definitions of grace and mercy). Even our ability to exercise faith is a gift from God (v. 16; see article on FAITH AND GRACE). Because God provided the way to be reconciled (i.e., restored to a right relationship) to him, a believer becomes a new creation in Christ (cf. 2Co 5:17-18).

(3) When God sees the hearts of people who turn toward Christ in faith, he freely forgives their sins, credits their faith as righteousness and accepts them as his children (vv. 5-8; see article on BIBLICAL WORDS FOR SALVATION). Along with restoring people to a right relationship with himself, God also gives them his power and ability to continue to grow and develop spiritually and to fulfill his purposes for their lives (see v. 16; 5:2; Php 3:9; Tit 3:5-7; see article on SANCTIFICATION).

(4) The kind of faith that is credited to a person as righteousness is faith in Christ and his death that paid the full penalty for our offenses against God (3:24-26). Absolutely nothing else but Christ’s sacrificial death on the cross is the basis for a restored and renewed relationship with God (see 5:10, note).

 

[studier]

Fair enough, but notice — I’ve been addressing the text itself, not just a framework built around it. Romans 4:5 isn’t an optional “detail” — it’s Paul’s inspired definition of justification by faith apart from works.

You've been ignoring what I presented for discussion as the premises resulting in a conclusion, and diverting to Rom4:5 which I've addressed and will do so again below.

If obedience were equivalent or inseparable from faith in the causal sense, Paul couldn’t write:

“To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” (Romans 4:5 KJV)That single verse already sets the boundary: faith is counted for righteousness, obedience follows as the fruit of righteousness.

Your statement misrepresents the category of “obedience,” treats absence of explicit equivalence in Rom4:5 as proof (argument from silence), and overgeneralizes from a single verse to set an absolute boundary - exegesis in its finest form!

We can look at any passage you’d like, but it all has to harmonize with that foundation — because that’s rightly dividing the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15 KJV).

So you’re saying Scripture can only be discussed if it fits your system - a system you claim not to have. That’s precisely one of the problem I and others have been pointing out.

Astounding...

 

[LightBearer316]

You've been ignoring what I presented for discussion as the premises resulting in a conclusion, and diverting to Rom4:5 which I've addressed and will do so again below.


Your statement misrepresents the category of “obedience,” treats absence of explicit equivalence in Rom4:5 as proof (argument from silence), and overgeneralizes from a single verse to set an absolute boundary - exegesis in its finest form!



So you’re saying Scripture can only be discussed if it fits your system - a system you claim not to have. That’s precisely one of the problem I and others have been pointing out.

Astounding...

Studier, I’m not asking Scripture to fit a system — I’m simply letting Scripture define its own order.

Paul’s inspired boundary in Romans 4:5 couldn’t be clearer:

“To him that worketh not, but believeth… his faith is counted for righteousness.”​

That isn’t “argument from silence” — it’s Paul’s direct contrast. Faith is credited apart from works; obedience flows from that righteousness (Romans 6:17-18 KJV).

Even the Fire Bible note explains that Abraham’s “faith, not simply his actions, made him right with God and gave him the power to do what was right.”
That’s harmonizing Scripture, not system-building — it’s rightly dividing the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15 KJV).

Grace and peace.
Acts 17:11 (KJV)
“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”

 

[LightBearer316]

Ephesians 1:7 (KJV) is one of the clearest verses that completely dismantles baptismal regeneration (the teaching that water baptism itself brings forgiveness or salvation).

“In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace.” — Ephesians 1:7 KJV​

Grace and Peace

 

[LightBearer316]

 

[Ouch]

@Ouch
I’m waiting, Ouch — go ahead and pound that keyboard and cook up some more theological claptrap.
You’ve been consistent at least… consistently wrong, but consistent nonetheless.

Grace and Peace
Acts 17:11 (KJV)
“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”

"O" NO Ouch is at it again LOL, your too funny.

I rebuke Satan and those who lie for him, sorry but it is what it is.

I am very careful with my words, since I will be held accountable for every one of them.

I guess you don't get what "SHALL" mean's and you also don't get that Paul is speaking TO HIS CHURCH NOT THE UNSAVED.

STORY TIME, tring to explain HIS word to me again???

On this sight, you tell others how wrong they are and in the whole time you are lying about HIS word AND you are not rightly dividing HIS WORD. Paul is NOT TALKING TO THE UNSAVED....

Then you say things like it's a ceremony or ritual ALL NOT BIBLE.

PETER said what he said, not what you wanted him to say.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

GET BAPTIZED EVERYONE OF YOU IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST FOR REMISSION OF SINS.

NOT YOUR LIES "SALVATION REST OF THE LORD'S NAME AND POWER"

YOU DON'T GET IT, 1 COR PAUL IS SPEAKING TO HIS CHURCH NOT THE UNSAVED,

WHO CARES PAULS TEAM WAS DOING THE BAPTIZING, Paul was baptized in JESUS name and did baptized people.

If you understood that a church can't run with one person you should read 1 Corinthians 14.

JESUS wasn't sent to baptized either.

MORE STORY TIME.

Did I make you wait to long, sorry.

Now don't get mad because I called you a liar, I'm sure you knew you were already.

Your right I've been consistent with sharing HIS word and keeping my opinion out of it or lie to make my case.

 

[studier]

It was Abraham’s faith, not simply his actions,

"...not simply his actions" sounds to me like his actions — a.k.a. works — were also involved. Are you sure this was a good post for you?

 

[LightBearer316]

studier said: Your statement misrepresents the category of “obedience,” treats absence of explicit equivalence in Rom4:5 as proof (argument from silence), and overgeneralizes from a single verse to set an absolute boundary - exegesis in its finest form!

The irony is, Romans 4:5 does explicitly state:

• “Worketh not” — obedience and deeds are excluded as causes.
• “Believeth” — faith alone is credited as righteousness.

That’s not silence — it’s Paul making the distinction clear by direct contrast.

By saying I “misrepresent” obedience, you are redefining it away from any action that could be considered a work.
In your framework, “obedience” isn’t external effort but a conceptual “element” of faith itself — so that faith and obedience become linguistically welded together.

That’s why you keep repeating the phrase “functionally equivalent.”
You are trying to merge categories — to say faith is obedience, obedience is faith, and therefore justification includes obedience.

You are implying my interpretation rests on too little data. But Romans 4:5 isn’t an isolated idea — it’s echoed all through Scripture:

• Ephesians 2:8–9 – “Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
• Romans 3:28 – “A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”
• Titus 3:5 – “Not by works of righteousness which we have done.”

So I'm not generalizing from one verse; I'm harmonizing a consistent Pauline doctrine.

Grace and Peace
Acts 17:11 (KJV)
“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”

 

[LightBearer316]

"...not simply his actions" sounds to me like his actions — a.k.a. works — were also involved. Are you sure this was a good post for you?

When I said not simply his actions, I meant exactly what Paul wrote — that Abraham’s faith preceded and produced his obedience, not that his actions contributed to his justification. Romans 4:2–5 KJV makes that distinction explicit:

‘To him that worketh not, but believeth… his faith is counted for righteousness.’

Faith was the cause; obedience was the consequence. Abraham’s actions demonstrated his faith — they didn’t share in earning his righteousness before God.

Grace and Peace
Acts 17:11 (KJV)
“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Ephesians 1:7 (KJV) is one of the clearest verses that completely dismantles baptismal regeneration (the teaching that water baptism itself brings forgiveness or salvation).

“In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace.” — Ephesians 1:7 KJV​

Grace and Peace

According to the way you reason since that verse doesn't say anything about faith, then faith doesn't produce forgiveness of sins; it's the fruit of forgiveness.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The irony is, Romans 4:5 does explicitly state:

• “Worketh not” — obedience and deeds are excluded as causes.
• “Believeth” — faith alone is credited as righteousness.

Righteousness alone isn't salvation.

 

[studier]

Ephesians 1:7 (KJV) is one of the clearest verses that completely dismantles baptismal regeneration (the teaching that water baptism itself brings forgiveness or salvation).

“In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace.” — Ephesians 1:7 KJV​

Grace and Peace

Nobody I know is denying that Christ’s blood is the basis for redemption. Nor is anybody here that I've seen saying that "baptism itself brings forgiveness or salvation," though I'm not reading every post.

Maybe your projecting faith alone onto baptism alone/itself. I think it was @Lamar who recently spoke of your adding definitives.

 

[studier]

When I said not simply his actions,

When you said? Were those your notes from a study you heard? Or were they a study you taught? Or were they a study you copied and pasted?

Whatever they were, my observation stands. One would think with your systematic beliefs that you'd be more careful in writing something that sounds like Abraham's works were involved in his credited righteousness, which would of course mean, no matter how you slice it, that so was his obedience.

And BTW, the Text doesn't say that Abraham's faith produced his obedience. This is what you say.