Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[sawdust]

We already know she does not believe God is necessary in the process of coming to believe.

Sure, because none of us have said God initiates the process with grace.

 

[Jordon]

“Ism” is simply a small piece of language that helps us talk about a whole system of ideas in one word. In science, we rely on it to explain things like magnetism and organism classification. History and society would be impossible to describe without words like patriotism or abolitionism. Philosophy uses it constantly for theism, atheism, and humanism. Art movements are grouped under impressionism, realism, and classicism. Even the church cannot escape it. We talk about monotheism for belief in one God, evangelism for sharing the gospel, and baptism which literally ends with “ism.” If a person tries to throw out every “ism,” they end up removing evangelism itself and the belief in one God. Nobody wants that. The suffix does not create a belief, it simply helps everyone know which belief you are referring to. Without it, conversations would become long, confusing, and honestly quite silly.

As for Evangelism and John Calvin: Well, unless someone is talking about the extreme form known as High Calvinism, most Calvinists do believe in spreading the gospel. They preach Christ and call sinners to repent. That reality does not cancel out the doctrines of Calvinism in any way. Evangelism is about delivering the invitation to believe. Calvinism is about the belief that God only enables that invitation to matter for a select group He predestined. So yes, Calvin and those who follow his teachings evangelize, but it does not erase the underlying theology that places all responsibility on God and removes real human choice. Doing something Christ commanded does not automatically make one’s theology biblical.

It is not wrong to admire the passion Calvinists show when they proclaim Christ. The problem is that their system ultimately removes any real choice from the individual. Scripture repeatedly puts responsibility on the person to receive the truth. Calvinism shifts that responsibility entirely onto God. As much as Calvinists try to make evangelism fit into their theology, their own doctrinal foundation makes the gospel invitation feel more like a performance than a real offer. It creates a mixed message that the Bible never teaches. God calls all, yet Calvinism says only a preselected few can answer. That is not good news for the world. It is a locked door disguised as an open one.

As for Anglicanism and Joh Calvin: Well, John Calvin did not believe in Anglicanism or participate in its structure. On the contrary, what influence he did have went in the other direction. His teachings helped shape certain early theological developments within what later became known as Anglicanism. His emphasis on the authority of Scripture and on elements of predestination were respected by many English reformers, and some of these ideas appear in early Anglican doctrinal formulations such as the Thirty-Nine Articles. Yet Calvin’s role in the English church was limited. The Church of England retained its episcopal hierarchy, its traditional liturgy, and its self-conscious identity as a middle way between Rome and the continental Reformed churches. So while Calvin helped shape certain doctrinal contours in England, Anglicanism never adopted Calvin’s theological system fully. It certainly never transformed into Calvinism, even though there are still some Anglican Reformed churches today.



....

it's a classic tail of everyone trying to workout there salvation, and then teaching us how they worked out there salvation, with John Calvin it's no different and if at all tulip is solely accredited to him and it's a big if , as the reformed church I attend preach enabling grace of God all the time, and they solely attribute those teaching to the great reformation, which unless I'm mistaken John Calvin was a part of, his writings where against the Roman Catholic church who where about forcing there beliefs, burning people at the stake, John calvins teachings where about the struggles we face,

So whilst you may think the things you do, you have your views I have mine.
Respectfully I totally disagree with yours, John Calvin apposed the Catholic church and if it wasn't for people like him who showed great courage at the time baring in mind how ruthless the Roman Catholics where.

We would just have Roman Catholics today.

 

[sawdust]

What's the big deal? They didn't receive the love of truth. Pretty straightforward. No reason is given for why.

The reason is given in the verse. They refused to love the truth, hence never received salvation. It does not say because God refused to regenerate them.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

yep well you know if God didn't have patience in his will, there is no way in this world your human reasoning could ever be reasoned with.

do you agree that if I am not in alignment with the Will of God ... and you are in alignment with God's Will ... and you go against my will ... you would be in alignment with God's Will and I would not be in alignment with God's Will?

that you would receive the blessing God promises?
that I would receive the consequence of not believing God's Word?

Using words like training to make controlling look bad, might be a good idea to you, but that's the kind of human reasoning that gives people the excuse they need to not be controlled and live in sin with the devil

Which is why satan will control them all there life

Have you read Hebrews 12? God tells us He chastens ... not "controls" His children.

Question, What would you rather have done, let Satan control there hearts or God ?

Satan will use tricks like tempting a person into addiction so then he can control there nature much more easier,

Where as God uses his shepherds to guide them in kindness , to control there nature, and he also uses fruits of his spirit like self control to control there nature,

We are "led" by the Spirit ... we are not "controlled" by the Spirit. We leave Him ... we are the ones who are drawn away ... God never leaves us. And when we repent, He is always there for us. Hopefully, prayerfully, we realize quickly when we have strayed from Him so we turn back to Him before too much time has passed.

As humans actions can't fill God,
Human actions without his word are dead.

The term, faith without works is dead is true

agree that what is written in James concerning faith without works is dead is true.

The scripture God predestined us to do is works, again equates to God controlling our very nature to prevent satan from doing so.

when you sin, is that because you did not follow the leading of the Holy Spirit? ... you allowed the lusts of your flesh to draw you away from God?

God equips His children to stand and withstand the trials and temptations of this life. God's provision is more than adequate to overcome the wiles of the wicked one ... we are the ones who fail to be led by the Spirit ... we leave God's provision and walk in the flesh ... and the flesh is so easily overcome by satan.

But again you will appeal to your human reasoning and write it all off with one word.

You remind me of somebody that blames God because it's not there fault why they are what they are.

It appears to me that you allow sin to continue because if God is in control and you sin ... He did not "control" you to not sin.

fyi ... I do not blame God for who I was in Adam ... I thank God He is merciful, He remembers that we are dust ... I thank God for my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ ... He Who lives within me.

.

 

[Jordon]

Here you go @Bible_Highlighter
This will blow your head off

John Calvin: Suffering, Understanding the Love of God - DTS Voice https://share.google/ubEoZkhk1t4VVMJMm


John Calvin (1509–1564) was familiar with suffering. He faced challenges as a leader of the Reformation, ministered to people undergoing various trials, and experienced his own physical difficulties and the death of loved ones. He has been criticized as an aloof, intellectual theologian whose view of suffering may seem to some as less than sympathetic and pastoral. However, Hill’s selection of his writings shows that Calvin was tender and understanding toward sufferers.

This book consists mainly of quotations from Calvin’s commentaries and his Institutes of the Christian Religion, which are interspersed with Hill’s own comments. Calvin’s writings are applied to human suffering, including all sorts of pain and distress, serious illness, loss of loved ones or friends, natural disasters such as earthquakes, floods, and forest fires, poverty and hunger, accidents, persecution, and many other such events. Illustrations of suffering are drawn from the life of Calvin himself and other figures of history

 

[Cameron143]

The reason is given in the verse. They refused to love the truth, hence never received salvation. It does not say because God refused to regenerate them.

It doesn't say they refused. It says they didn't receive it.

 

[Jordon]

Here you go @Bible_Highlighter

This is just a taste of one of the books wrote about John Calvin

Do you want to know the truth ?


Calvin dealt with many reasons believers suffer, including, among others, stimulation to prayer, trust in God’s power, teaching patience, encouraging hope, evidence of obedience, leading one to a higher relationship with God, being led to seek God’s help, having pity on others, and preparing for eternal glory

 

[Cameron143]

Strewth Cameron. I gave you the links so you could look for yourself and you keep persisting in asking me?

I'm gonna say this one more time ... They are the exact same tense!!

My apologies. They are the same tense. They are not the same voice, which is what I have been explaining all along. In the active voice, the individual is the doer of the action. In the passive voice, the individual isn't doing the action but is the receiver of the action. Someone else, in the case of Galatians 4:9, it is God who is performing the action.
This is important because in Matthew 7:21-23, those making much of their profession clearly knew Jesus. What was lacking was Jesus knowing them.
This was the point I was trying to get to. Man can know God in the natural sense through creation and conscience through his own activity. He cannot, however, be known of God through his own endeavor. God must come to an individual and make Himself known to the individual.

 

[Jordon]

do you agree that if I am not in alignment with the Will of God ... and you are in alignment with God's Will ... and you go against my will ... you would be in alignment with God's Will and I would not be in alignment with God's Will?

that you would receive the blessing God promises?
that I would receive the consequence of not believing God's Word?





Have you read Hebrews 12? God tells us He chastens ... not "controls" His children.





We are "led" by the Spirit ... we are not "controlled" by the Spirit. We leave Him ... we are the ones who are drawn away ... God never leaves us. And when we repent, He is always there for us. Hopefully, prayerfully, we realize quickly when we have strayed from Him so we turn back to Him before too much time has passed.





agree that what is written in James concerning faith without works is dead is true.





when you sin, is that because you did not follow the leading of the Holy Spirit? ... you allowed the lusts of your flesh to draw you away from God?

God equips His children to stand and withstand the trials and temptations of this life. God's provision is more than adequate to overcome the wiles of the wicked one ... we are the ones who fail to be led by the Spirit ... we leave God's provision and walk in the flesh ... and the flesh is so easily overcome by satan.





It appears to me that you allow sin to continue because if God is in control and you sin ... He did not "control" you to not sin.

fyi ... I do not blame God for who I was in Adam ... I thank God He is merciful, He remembers that we are dust ... I thank God for my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ ... He Who lives within me.

.

sorry but your whole post sounds lovely but it reminds me of a power to the people reading i once witnessed in a church whilst on holiday

Does the fruit of self control just equip you on the back seat of the car or does it actually control your soul to not be led by the flesh ?

 

[sawdust]

It doesn't say they refused. It says they didn't receive it.

Cameron. If you don't receive something it is because it was given and rejected or at least there is an expectation of it being given and it never coming. In the former the onus falls on the recipient, in the latter it is the failure of the giver.

 

[cv5]

If I was misinformed as to who is actually a Calvinist it was either due to their lack of not explaining their position to me (while they have exhibited the classic signs of Calvinist teaching) or I made an honest mistake (like a mix up of who that person was, etc.). I am happy to be corrected if I said something that was not true to a person's actual beliefs.
.

Evidently a Calvinist denying being a Calvinist is a necessity for most Calvinists.

 

[Cameron143]

Cameron. If you don't receive something it is because it was given and rejected or at least there is an expectation of it being given and it never coming. In the former the onus falls on the recipient, in the latter it is the failure of the giver.

The natural man receives not the things of God. They don't need to refuse them not to receive them. They simply don't receive them.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

My apologies. They are the same tense. They are not the same voice, which is what I have been explaining all along. In the active voice, the individual is the doer of the action. In the passive voice, the individual isn't doing the action but is the receiver of the action. Someone else, in the case of Galatians 4:9, it is God who is performing the action.

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

when they knew ... Greek ginōskō ...

Speech: Verb​

Tense: Second Aorist​

Voice: Active​

Mood: Participle​

Case: Nominative​

Number: Plural​

Gender: Masculine​

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

after that ye have known = ... Greek ginōskō ...

Speech: Verb​

Tense: Second Aorist​

Voice: Active​

Mood: Participle​

Case: Nominative​

Number: Plural​

Gender: Masculine​

Cameron143 ... I believe you're looking at the words or rather are known of God ... the words "are known" are translated from the Greek ginōskō ... and that ginōskō is passive.

This is important because in Matthew 7:21-23, those making much of their profession clearly knew Jesus.

I do not believe they "clearly knew Jesus" ... I believe they thought they knew Him ... they knew of Him, but they did not know Him.

What was lacking was Jesus knowing them.
This was the point I was trying to get to. Man can know God in the natural sense through creation and conscience through his own activity. He cannot, however, be known of God through his own endeavor. God must come to an individual and make Himself known to the individual.

If we would not orphan Romans 1:16-17 from Romans 1:18-32, it is clear that those who believe when the Gospel of Christ, which is the power of God unto salvation, is revealed to them, receive the promise of salvation.

However, if/when the gospel is revealed and the person suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, the consequence is no salvation.

Then continue reading to see that continued rejection of the truth of God's Word results in God giving folks over as they move further and further from Him.

.

 

[sawdust]

My apologies. They are the same tense. They are not the same voice, which is what I have been explaining all along. In the active voice, the individual is the doer of the action. In the passive voice, the individual isn't doing the action but is the receiver of the action. Someone else, in the case of Galatians 4:9, it is God who is performing the action.
This is important because in Matthew 7:21-23, those making much of their profession clearly knew Jesus. What was lacking was Jesus knowing them.

You have not been explaining that (what I bolded) Cameron, you have been arguing from a place of error.

Did you actually look at the links I gave Cameron? Be honest. Did you look at the right hand margin where the tense, voice, gender, mood etc is shown for each word? Because if you did Cameron you would have seen in both verses Rom.1:21 and Gal.4:9 they use the active voice.

Go round again.

Rom.1:21
1097 [e] γνόντες gnontes having known V-APA-NMP

Gal.4:9
1097 [e] γνόντες gnontes having known V-APA-NMP

There you are, now you don't have to look it up.

This was the point I was trying to get to. Man can know God in the natural sense through creation and conscience through his own activity. He cannot, however, be known of God through his own endeavor. God must come to an individual and make Himself known to the individual.

Well your point is false because if you look in verse 19 it shows that it is God revealing the truth through the creation. Man does not come to the conclusion by means of his own intellect. The Lord is not revealing He is a personal God at this juncture, but what He does reveal is more than enough for man to "bow down" if they want.

Rom.1:19
since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

 

[Cameron143]

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

when they knew ... Greek ginōskō ...

Speech: Verb​

Tense: Second Aorist​

Voice: Active​

Mood: Participle​

Case: Nominative​

Number: Plural​

Gender: Masculine​

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

after that ye have known = ... Greek ginōskō ...

Speech: Verb​

Tense: Second Aorist​

Voice: Active​

Mood: Participle​

Case: Nominative​

Number: Plural​

Gender: Masculine​

Cameron143 ... I believe you're looking at the words or rather are known of God ... the words "are known" are translated from the Greek ginōskō ... and that ginōskō is passive.





I do not believe they "clearly knew Jesus" ... I believe they thought they knew Him ... they knew of Him, but they did not know Him.





If we would not orphan Romans 1:16-17 from Romans 1:18-32, it is clear that those who believe when the Gospel of Christ, which is the power of God unto salvation, is revealed to them, receive the promise of salvation.

However, if/when the gospel is revealed and the person suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, the consequence is no salvation.

Then continue reading to see that continued rejection of the truth of God's Word results in God giving folks over as they move further and further from Him.

.

Jesus said to them that He never knew them. They clearly knew Him and made a big deal of it...Lord, Lord. What was not true of them was that He never knew them. Certainly He knew who they were so He wasn't unfamiliar with their identities. But He never came to them in the sense of Romans 8:15-16.

 

[sawdust]

The natural man receives not the things of God. They don't need to refuse them not to receive them. They simply don't receive them.

If something is given and they don't have it then yes, they have to refuse it. If you have no expectation of receiving something then to say I didn't receive makes no sense.

In your theology they are never given anything to receive so not receiving would be logical and not something for which to be condemned.

 

[sawdust]

Jesus said to them that He never knew them. They clearly knew Him and made a big deal of it...Lord, Lord. What was not true of them was that He never knew them. Certainly He knew who they were so He wasn't unfamiliar with their identities. But He never came to them in the sense of Romans 8:15-16.

They knew their own version of the Lord, but had no relationship with Him and therefore did not know Him. Much like Paul knew his version of being made righteous through the Law but was very unrighteous.

 

[Rufus]

An interesting understanding of of Jeremiah 17:9, I learned years ago from my pastor who was able to teach masterfully from the Hebrew and Greek texts. Pastors ordered his recorded messages for their personal study.

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?"​

The passage hardly ever gets analyzed in it's proper context for why it was said.

That was stated concerning the rebellious Jews who were in an utterly self destruct mode.
Jeremiah was dealing with a totally deranged people.
A people that had degenerated into a culture of great evil.

For the Jews in his day were holding public orgies, which included phallic statues on display for female masturbation, and a burning furnace for child sacrifice while the orgies took place..

Thus... While pointing to the people? God through Jeremiah, was actually saying.

"The deceitful heart above all things is desperately wicked; who can know it?"​

What we see bantered around today with Jeremiah 17:9, was not some generalized open statement being made in reference to all men. .

It was pertaining specifically about the rebellious Jews whom God was about to destroy.
In spite of it all? Jeremiah loved his people. That is what he was called "the weeping prophet."

I am now thinking of reordering that Jeremiah series to brush up.

It was specific!
W

"The deceitful heart above all things is desperately wicked; who can know it?"​

​

God will provide for our every need.

So the pagan, God-hating Gentile nations were more righteous than God's chosen covenant people who received the covenants, the Law, God's presence in his temple, the sacrificial system, etc.? Such a desperate interpretation of yours also minimizes the nature of sin which is deceitfulness at its core. But then again...this is what you FWers do, isn't it? You diminish the self-destructive, addictive power of sin thereby unjustifiably

“Ism” is simply a small piece of language that helps us talk about a whole system of ideas in one word. In science, we rely on it to explain things like magnetism and organism classification. History and society would be impossible to describe without words like patriotism or abolitionism. Philosophy uses it constantly for theism, atheism, and humanism. Art movements are grouped under impressionism, realism, and classicism. Even the church cannot escape it. We talk about monotheism for belief in one God, evangelism for sharing the gospel, and baptism which literally ends with “ism.” If a person tries to throw out every “ism,” they end up removing evangelism itself and the belief in one God. Nobody wants that. The suffix does not create a belief, it simply helps everyone know which belief you are referring to. Without it, conversations would become long, confusing, and honestly quite silly.

As for Evangelism and John Calvin: Well, unless someone is talking about the extreme form known as High Calvinism, most Calvinists do believe in spreading the gospel. They preach Christ and call sinners to repent. That reality does not cancel out the doctrines of Calvinism in any way. Evangelism is about delivering the invitation to believe. Calvinism is about the belief that God only enables that invitation to matter for a select group He predestined. So yes, Calvin and those who follow his teachings evangelize, but it does not erase the underlying theology that places all responsibility on God and removes real human choice. Doing something Christ commanded does not automatically make one’s theology biblical.

It is not wrong to admire the passion Calvinists show when they proclaim Christ. The problem is that their system ultimately removes any real choice from the individual. Scripture repeatedly puts responsibility on the person to receive the truth. Calvinism shifts that responsibility entirely onto God. As much as Calvinists try to make evangelism fit into their theology, their own doctrinal foundation makes the gospel invitation feel more like a performance than a real offer. It creates a mixed message that the Bible never teaches. God calls all, yet Calvinism says only a preselected few can answer. That is not good news for the world. It is a locked door disguised as an open one.

As for Anglicanism and Joh Calvin: Well, John Calvin did not believe in Anglicanism or participate in its structure. On the contrary, what influence he did have went in the other direction. His teachings helped shape certain early theological developments within what later became known as Anglicanism. His emphasis on the authority of Scripture and on elements of predestination were respected by many English reformers, and some of these ideas appear in early Anglican doctrinal formulations such as the Thirty-Nine Articles. Yet Calvin’s role in the English church was limited. The Church of England retained its episcopal hierarchy, its traditional liturgy, and its self-conscious identity as a middle way between Rome and the continental Reformed churches. So while Calvin helped shape certain doctrinal contours in England, Anglicanism never adopted Calvin’s theological system fully. It certainly never transformed into Calvinism, even though there are still some Anglican Reformed churches today.



....

"Choice" is not the major issue in evangelism. The universal principles that the Reformed focus on when evangelizing is that every single human being needs Christ and it's sinners' moral/spiritual duty to accept the truth of the Gospel. If these two universal truths penetrate into the hearts of a sinner by God's grace, eventually they will cry out to the Lord to save them because they will sense their helpless, hopeless state.

 

[Cameron143]

You have not been explaining that (what I bolded) Cameron, you have been arguing from a place of error.

Did you actually look at the links I gave Cameron? Be honest. Did you look at the right hand margin where the tense, voice, gender, mood etc is shown for each word? Because if you did Cameron you would have seen in both verses Rom.1:21 and Gal.4:9 they use the active voice.

Go round again.

Rom.1:21
1097 [e] γνόντες gnontes having known V-APA-NMP

Gal.4:9
1097 [e] γνόντες gnontes having known V-APA-NMP

There you are, now you don't have to look it up.



Well your point is false because if you look in verse 19 it shows that it is God revealing the truth through the creation. Man does not come to the conclusion by means of his own intellect. The Lord is not revealing He is a personal God at this juncture, but what He does reveal is more than enough for man to "bow down" if they want.

Rom.1:19
since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

In Galatians 4:9, both the active and passive voices are used.

And be honest, did you actually read my post carefully? I may have mistaken voice for tense, but my point was exactly as I stated. In Galatians 4:9, Paul mentions what individuals can do in the first usage of "known", and what God is doing in the second usage of "known". These are 2 different actions with 2 different actors. Individuals can know God without God knowing them...see Matthew 7:21-23. And apart from God knowing an individual, they will hear...depart. Further, while an individual can know God, this is clearly, according to Matthew 7:21-23, insufficient for salvation.

 

[Rufus]

Hey, kid.

I am going to tell your parents about you.

Is this how your vaunted spiritual "giants/teachers" taught you to childishly respond to God's word?