Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Cameron143]

I agree God determined it, but I do not agree with Augustine's view of the fallen human nature.

I think the church fathers before him had the correct view.

Appreciate you answering.

 

[Jordon]

Enabling grace is what I have been arguing for.
Irresistible grace is what they have been trying to rub in our noses.

Irresistible grace denies the person his right to choose.
One must cease being who they are and be replaced by a programmed clone.
Therefore, God does not save you.
He only saves the clone.

That is what they leave us with.

irresistible grace is the point on which enabling grace takes over as far I understand it.

But I can only see that like the other core points of tulip, you don't get to understand them until you've studied them.

I don't have an issue with it myself,

I would question your disernment to see irresistible grace as something that prevents you from been able to choose, the start of tulip clearly identifies where all totally depraved to begin with.

But It seems your putting irresistible grace first.

 

[Kroogz]

I agree that GW teaches God will not forsake a believer, but do you agree that these Scriptures teach a believer may revert?:

Matt. 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”

Rom. 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”

1Cor. 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”

Gal. 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”

Col. 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”

2Thes. 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”

2Tim. 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”

Heb. 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”

Heb. 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.” This passage indicates that apostasy may be viewed as total depravity or blasphemy against the HS (MT 12:31).

Heb. 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

Jam. 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”

2Pet. 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

2Pet. 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”

1John 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”

Jude 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”

Rev. 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

This is the same reasoning, tactic and eisegesis the reformed/calvie/tulip crowd uses.

We will never perish.
We are born of imperishable seed.
We have ETERNAL LIFE.
We will never, no not ever come into condemnation.
Nothing will separate us from the love of Christ.

We may.....revert,fall away,make shipwreck of our faith, walk away...ECT. And then face discipline, loss of blessings,loss of rewards,loss of fellowship......Be saved as if through fire.

You are introducing the idea of "loss of salvation" into the text......And it is NEVER there.

 

[Magenta]

I agree God determined it, but I do not agree with Augustine's view of the fallen human nature.

I think the church fathers before him had the correct view.

You disagree with Paul, and Jesus. Claiming that what Jesus and Paul taught came from Augustine is just
more of your dishonesty. But contradicting and denying what Scripture says comes easily to a free willer.

John 14 v 17a, Romans 8 v 6-9 ~ “Inability” in Bible. The world cannot receive the Spirit of truth. The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. Praise be to God for calling me out of the world.

 

[Magenta]

Pelagian heretics insist man is inherently good. From within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. Mark 7 verses 21-22 Every inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Genesis 8 verse 21b Who can bring out clean from unclean? No one! Job 14 verse 4 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 7 verse 18

 

[Kroogz]

Nope he also implied God must be a rapist to me to .

If Bob did not have Jane's consent to impregnate her......Would Bob be a rapist?

God had Mary's consent to impregnate her. God is not a rapist.

Now, if God didn't have Mary's consent......

 

[Rufus]

I did not save myself. That is where you get screwy.
I did not do anything to become saved.

God found me (while under His grace to control my sin nature) to be simply normal in my response to Him while drawing me.

You give a thirsty man a glass of water.
Do you save him because he drinks it?
What merit would there be in drinking it?
He was simply being normal.

Now, give an evil person also a glass of water.
He would refuse it, because he sees you as evil and trying to poison him.

Ironically, it is what the unbeliever does that causes God not to save him.

But ALL unbelievers, w/o exception, are cut from the cloth -- ADAM! There's no difference between anyone who is in Adam. We are all made from the same helpless lump of clay. This makes your analogy above pretty lame because no unregenerate sinner naturally wants to drink from the Fountain of Life since he has no thirst for it.

And your analogy clearly implies that what makes the difference between one sinner who drinks and one who chooses not to lies in the sinner himself -- not in the One doing the saving.

 

[NightTwister]

You disagree with Paul, and Jesus. Claiming that what Jesus and Paul taught came from Augustine is just
more of your dishonesty. But contradicting and denying what Scripture says comes easily to a free willer.

Just like Jesus used the KJV Bible...

 

[Rufus]

You were the one who made the point that we need no human teachers from God.
Not me....

My reason for asking, and your reason?
Apples and oranges.

I did not say that! But you FWers are cut from the same cloth as the struggling Corinthian Church (1Cor 1), i.e. boasting of the "wise and gifted" teachers you follow. All I'm saying is that the teacher I boast in is Christ who is the very Wisdom of God. This doesn't mean that I don't receive any spiritual nourishment or refreshment for my soul from pastors or teachers -- but at the end of the day, their teaching or message is only as good as it aligns with the Word, which means the onus is on me to check their version of the truth with the one and only authoritative standard for Truth.

 

[Jordon]

If Bob did not have Jane's consent to impregnate her......Would Bob be a rapist?

God had Mary's consent to impregnate her. God is not a rapist.

Now, if God didn't have Mary's consent......

I'm interested in taking about God this way, maybe you are but I'm not

 

[Rufus]

Gods love is from what is in Him........His virtue.

We love God based on who and what He is. He is deserving of our love.

He loves all of mankind based upon who and what He is. We do not deserve His love.

We will get to this level of love, when we get to know Him better....Bible doctrine in our soul.

We will love all of mankind because of who and what we are...........Christ in us.

I would suggest a good look at John 21:15-17 and the different aspects of "love" that are mentioned.


15 When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?”

“Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.”

Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.”

16 Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you love me?”

He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.”

Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.”

17 The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?”

Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.”

2CO 5:14, “For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;”

All of mankind has equal privilege and equal opportunity at His salvation. And our unconditional love for mankind mimics(should mimic) Christ's love for mankind.

And God's love is Pure, Holy, Righteous -- i.e. totally moral in nature. This is why He cannot love anything that is evil, including human beings whose hearts of full of EVIL! If God were to love anything that is evil, then his love would be no different from the world's ungodly love! Moreover, who could trust such God who turns a blind eye to evil since loving any evil being would amount to tacit approval of their character!

God's love for His only Beloved Begotten Son was conditional in nature, for it was grounded in the condition of the Son's obedience. Since God's love for his only Son was conditional in nature, how much more the sons of men who are vile and corrupt and drink evil like water (Job 15:16)!? God places no trust in even his servants (Job 4:17-19; 15:14-15).

 

[Magenta]

I did not say that! But you FWers are cut from the same cloth as the struggling Corinthian Church (1Cor 1), i.e. boasting of the "wise and gifted" teachers you follow. All I'm saying is that the teacher I boast in is Christ who is the very Wisdom of God. This doesn't mean that I don't receive any spiritual nourishment or refreshment for my soul from pastors or teachers -- but at the end of the day, their teaching or message is only as good as it aligns with the Word, which means the onus is on me to check their version of the truth with the one and only authoritative standard for Truth.

The whole free will stance is predicated on them being wise enough to make some choice Scripture says they cannot.

Which plainly is not very wise of them at all, to contradict Scripture so thoroughly. But they do, and repeatedly so.

And yeah, after bragging repeatedly about their teacher, one FWer said God convinced them of the truth and
then they got to decide whether to believe it or not. LOL! That is the type of logic they use to try to sway us,
as if being convinced of something does not mean one already believes. And that same person goes on and
on about how important word meanings are while they decimate word meanings, and then instead of using
Biblical terms insert their own, all in efforts to skirt actually agreeing with what Scripture explicitly articulates.

 

[Rufus]

God completes salvation.

Man gives Him something to complete salvation with that becomes manifested while drawing that person.

God searches the heart of man before salvation is completed.
The drawing process has God digging (probing) for thoughts He is looking for.
Be they positive, or negative.

If the person is freely negative while being freed of guilt as a restraint? He is Condemned.
If the person is freely positive?
The Father then hands that one over to Christ, who is the embodiment of the thoughts he had been positive to.

I hope that answers your questions.

Proving once again that that the difference between the "freely positive" person and the "freely negative" and why one is saved and the other is not is solely grounded in man. You even think man gives something to God to contribute to his own salvation.

And, no, you did not answer all the questions to wit:

Are you saying here that sinners are powerless to restrain the flesh (their own sin nature)?

And you also seem to be saying that if God did not begin the work of salvation, no one would be able to "begin to believe"?

 

[Jordon]

This means we have shifted from God to god.

The End.

right so your still going to defend what he said to me and how I view God.

Not just that but hes actually saying God is a rapist if he goes against a persons own will.

How could you possibly defend that.

 

[Rufus]

So because one person says something we all get lumped into your despicable basket do we? What makes you think I read every single post in a thread?

You're the one constantly misrepresenting what we say then calling us liars for your misrepresentation. Plus you know your use of "FWers" is used as a denigration.

You did say I blasphemed when you lumped me in with your FWer tag which you have done again in this post.

Don't pretend you're innocent when you have done more maligning than any here. Virtually every post you make is derogatory. Even someone, who made their first post to you, you couldn't help but be rude to them in your response.

You point your finger at others and fail to stop your own wagging tongue.

You are a sad case which I continue to pray for.

So, you don't like the "FWer" label, heh? Would Arminianism or Pelagianism suit you better?

 

[Rufus]

When people like that imply God must be a rapist, it shows their deep diabolical anger and hatred towards God.

AMEN! And they have absolutely no clue about how extremely important humility is! Mary, without a doubt, was a very humble chosen servant of God, and the last thing that would enter into any humble person's mind is to give their approval to God's will for their life. Mary simply humbly accepted her high and noble calling. Only a wicked, arrogant, proud human being would dare call a thrice holy God's perfect will into question.

 

[Rufus]

Is this not their doctrine in its simplest format....


>>>>>god created people so they cannot believe the Good News, so therefore god regenerates first those he has especially created for salvation and then he bestows belief on those he created for salvation.

What is there to misrepresent, what is not acceptable, is laying bare the "system" for what it is.

God created people to be the FREE BIRDS they naturally want to be. And free birdies naturally do not want to be restrained either by God's Law or his Gospel. Give me one example in scripture whereby God deliberately prevented someone from entering His Kingdom who wanted to do so.

 

[Rufus]

Wrong right off the bat, but then as a Pelagian heretic you and your ilk reject what Scripture says about man. Adam is responsible for the fall man and the estate that man gets born into. Please read your Bible. Start with Genesis.

HIH uses very similar logic atheists do when they try to refute the existence of God. God is either not Good if he allowed sin to enter this world, or if God could not prevent sin and death, then He's not all powerful.

 

[Rufus]

I agree God determined it, but I do not agree with Augustine's view of the fallen human nature.

I think the church fathers before him had the correct view.

Which speaks loud and clear and poignantly to your PRIDE. You clearly think you are better than what the Word reveals.

 

[Rufus]

Just like Jesus used the KJV Bible...

Oh, no! What am I going to do? All these years I have meticulously avoided using the archaic KJV! I wonder if Jesus will forgive me...