Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Unbelievers do have a spirit; it's just separated from God, ie, dead, but it's very much alive.
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The thing is: TOTAL separation only occurs post GWT judgement, where all the unrepentant are DIVIDED and incarcerated into the LoF.
We now suffer a breach of fellowship, perfect fellowship being forfeited, but certainly not a TOTAL breach.

Because, God has always maintained His witness upon the earth from the fall onward to today and into the future. Either thru prophets, establishing law, convening covenants and then finally Christ.

Furthermore, untold multitudes are even saved DURING the time of God's wrath the GT.
If God were totally absent, none could or would be saved throughout all of time nor at the "end times".
 
Mem said:
Isaiah 57:16 suggests that man does have a spirit.
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For I will not contend forever,​
nor will I always be angry;​
for the spirit would grow faint before me,​
and the breath of life that I made.​


What some fail to realize....
God was contending with believers!

The ones that have given God the hardest times are the regenerate.
Obstinate children of His.
Unbelievers he does not deal with like a Father.

Isaiah 57 was directed at His people, who were performing horrible sins who had gone off to pagan practices.

LOOK!

God smashes! Even kills believers!


So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner ​
will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. Everyone ought to ​
examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. For those ​
who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on ​
themselves. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have ​
fallen asleep. ​
​
(sin onto death!)​
​
1 Corinthians 11:27-30​
 
Genez said:
For I will not contend forever,​
nor will I always be angry;​
for the spirit would grow faint before me,​
and the breath of life that I made.​


What some fail to realize....
God was contending with believers!

The ones that have given God the hardest times are the regenerate.
Obstinate children of His.
Unbelievers he does not deal with like a Father.

Isaiah 57 was directed at His people, who were performing horrible sins who had gone off to pagan practices.

LOOK!

God smashes! Even kills believers!


So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner ​
will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. Everyone ought to ​
examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. For those ​
who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on ​
themselves. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have ​
fallen asleep. ​
​
(sin onto death!)​
​
1 Corinthians 11:27-30​
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Well, even the demons believe but aren't very faithful.
 
Mem said:
Well, even the demons believe but aren't very faithful.
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Demons only believe God is real.
They refused to believe God.
There is a difference.

Demons are always watching and learning more and more how God thinks towards men who follow the same pattern as demons.
 
Mem said:
Then, with what does anyone believe? have hope? Look closely at Isaiah 57's vv. 10-11

10You are wearied by your many journeys,
but you did not say, “There is no hope!”

You found renewal of your strength;
therefore you did not grow weak.

These verses are speaking to the wicked and the v. 11 suggests that this is because of God sustaining these, hope and strenghth, in them, in spite of their condition.
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I'm not reading it quite the same way you are I think.

If it were not for the sustaining power of the Lord the whole universe would be in ruin and chaos but they are not acknowledging that. Instead they are attributing their renewal to their own strength and are relying on themselves and their dealings. While it appears to renew them in the short term, it is also wearing them out in the long term. We are not self-sufficient no matter how much we like to tell ourselves.

We are souls. The seat of our consciousness, thinking, conscience, emotion and will is in our soul. Our spirit is what is needed to connect to God and translate spiritual matters. When we are born from above (ie. when we believe) we receive a human spirit for the Spirit gives birth to spirit. Jn.3:6 God does not generate "dead" spirits ie. those that cannot relate to Him or do not function as intended.

Both our soul and our spirit come directly from God's hand and both are perfect in the giving.
 
sawdust said:
I'm not reading it quite the same way you are I think.

If it were not for the sustaining power of the Lord the whole universe would be in ruin and chaos but they are not acknowledging that. Instead they are attributing their renewal to their own strength and are relying on themselves and their dealings. While it appears to renew them in the short term, it is also wearing them out in the long term. We are not self-sufficient no matter how much we like to tell ourselves.

We are souls. The seat of our consciousness, thinking, conscience, emotion and will is in our soul. Our spirit is what is needed to connect to God and translate spiritual matters. When we are born from above (ie. when we believe) we receive a human spirit for the Spirit gives birth to spirit. Jn.3:6 God does not generate "dead" spirits ie. those that cannot relate to Him or do not function as intended.

Both our soul and our spirit come directly from God's hand and both are perfect in the giving.
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I'm assuming that you read it the same as @Genez then, that, although addressing Israel in verses such as Zechariah 12:1, God isn't speaking of mankind, which he created along with the heavens and the earth?
 
Mem said:
I'm assuming that you read it the same as @Genez then, that, although addressing Israel in verses such as Zechariah 12:1, God isn't speaking of mankind, which he created along with the heavens and the earth?
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No, Sawdust did not read it the same, but addressed a totally different aspect that I did not mention.
 
Genez said:
No, Sawdust did not read it the same, but addressed a totally different aspect that I did not mention.
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That you agree with also, yes?

Admittedly, I might have your opinions confused but the same question for me remains. With what does the one without a spirit exercise belief in what is not seen? It certainly doesn't seem, to me, to come from any natural human logic.
 
Mem said:
I'm assuming that you read it the same as @Genez then, that, although addressing Israel in verses such as Zechariah 12:1, God isn't speaking of mankind, which he created along with the heavens and the earth?
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He is addressing Israel but that doesn't mean we cannot make application of it for ourselves.

At the end of the day, I don't think it is a very good verse to try and prove everyone is born with a human spirit. The human spirit cannot die which is why (in part) our salvation from death is secure and why unbelievers cannot be born of God.

Verses that use spirit (ruach) like Zech. 12:1 can just as easily be translated as breath or life for that is the core meaning. To see the human spirit every time the word spirit is used, is like seeing water every time the word baptize is used. :)
 
Mem said:
That you agree with also, yes?

Admittedly, I might have your opinions confused but the same question for me remains. With what does the one without a spirit exercise belief in what is not seen? It certainly doesn't seem, to me, to come from any natural human logic.
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Until a person believes and is born again, the Holy Spirit does the work of the human spirit.

John 16:8
And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
 
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Mem said:
That you agree with also, yes?

Admittedly, I might have your opinions confused but the same question for me remains. With what does the one without a spirit exercise belief in what is not seen? It certainly doesn't seem, to me, to come from any natural human logic.
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You chose to go off on a tangent by not understanding what you cited, and I do not wish to go to that place.
It only served to disrupt the flow of where the narrative had been heading.
For that passage in Isaiah you cited was about those who did have human spirits that were in bad shape spiritually.
 
sawdust said:
He is addressing Israel but that doesn't mean we cannot make application of it for ourselves.

At the end of the day, I don't think it is a very good verse to try and prove everyone is born with a human spirit. The human spirit cannot die which is why (in part) our salvation from death is secure and why unbelievers cannot be born of God.

Verses that use spirit (ruach) like Zech. 12:1 can just as easily be translated as breath or life for that is the core meaning. To see the human spirit every time the word spirit is used, is like seeing water every time the word baptize is used. :)
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I anticipated that argument and noted that, within the verse I presented @Genez for consideration, Isaiah 57:16, both spirit and breath are indeed mentioned as the same thing which seems to me to suggest that as long as one has the breath (of life) then one has a spirit (of life).
 
Mem said:
I anticipated that argument and noted that, within the verse I presented @Genez for consideration, Isaiah 57:16, both spirit and breath are indeed mentioned as the same thing which seems to me to suggest that as long as one has the breath (of life) then one has a spirit (of life).
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Sorry. It is getting bogged down because of erroneous reasoning.
a lack of understanding.

Somehow you have a concept that is vague and seems to be subjective.
 
Genez said:
Sorry. It is getting bogged down because of erroneous reasoning.
a lack of understanding.

Somehow you have a concept that is vague and seems to be subjective.
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No need to be sorry. Be blessed.
 
sawdust said:
Until a person believes and is born again, the Holy Spirit does the work of the human spirit.

John 16:8
And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
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This brings Psalm 42:7's 'deep calls to deep,' to my mind.
 
Mem said:
It's Ok. Communication is more of art than it is a science.
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Breaking down the Scriptures and explaining them is both an art and a discipline.
Exegesis, when available, is a science.
It is Not, creative writing class and flights of fantasy.
 
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Genez said:
Breaking down the Scriptures and explaining them is both an art and a discipline.
Exegesis, when available, is a science.
It is Not, creative writing class and flights of fantasy.
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You mean like the story of angel baby daddies? Got it. Lighten up, Francis.
 
Mem said:
You mean like the story of angel baby daddies? Got it. Lighten up, Francis.
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And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more ​
and more in knowledge and depth of insight. ​
​
Philippians 1:9​

You could use a little light....
 
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