Indulgences

[Seeker47]

I not sure if this is brave or stupid:

While researching Jubilee for an earlier post I stumbled across this comment from a Catholic web site:
“By fulfilling certain conditions, including prayers, a pilgrimage, or acts of charity, Catholics can receive indulgences, which reduce or eliminate temporal punishment for sins.”
My instant reaction was probably much like yours, but then I noticed the words “…reduce or eliminate temporal punishment for sins.”

We all know the redemptive blood of our Savior frees us from the spiritual curse of sin, but does NOT free us from earthly consequences. Those are still ours. In fact, YHWH himself established these “temporal” consequences of sin, and some are very severe.

When raising my children, disciplinary functions were mine. I tried to clearly communicate right and wrong, but could not possibly make discipline a mechanical operation. When a lesson had already been learned, a cost already paid, or a contrite heart demonstrated, justice had to be tempered with grace.

Does our Father do the same thing? If we are truly contrite, attempt to pay for our mistakes, seek to right our wrongs, and try to never repeat our sin; is our temporal punishments “…reduced or eliminated…”? (Note: I can accept “reduced” not sure about “eliminated.”) What my Catholic friends call indulgences my protestant companions would term grace.

Now, before the scalping knives come out; I can already hear the war drums, let me add this. I respectfully disagree with Catholics that the “indulgences” are granted by the church. Grace is the sole domain of our merciful Father YHWH. In the meantime, I will take all the indulgences I can get.

 

[shittim]

I believe the selling of indulgences led to Luther writing the 99 theses (sp?)

 

[seoulsearch]

I not sure if this is brave or stupid:

While researching Jubilee for an earlier post I stumbled across this comment from a Catholic web site:
“By fulfilling certain conditions, including prayers, a pilgrimage, or acts of charity, Catholics can receive indulgences, which reduce or eliminate temporal punishment for sins.”
My instant reaction was probably much like yours, but then I noticed the words “…reduce or eliminate temporal punishment for sins.”

We all know the redemptive blood of our Savior frees us from the spiritual curse of sin, but does NOT free us from earthly consequences. Those are still ours. In fact, YHWH himself established these “temporal” consequences of sin, and some are very severe.

When raising my children, disciplinary functions were mine. I tried to clearly communicate right and wrong, but could not possibly make discipline a mechanical operation. When a lesson had already been learned, a cost already paid, or a contrite heart demonstrated, justice had to be tempered with grace.

Does our Father do the same thing? If we are truly contrite, attempt to pay for our mistakes, seek to right our wrongs, and try to never repeat our sin; is our temporal punishments “…reduced or eliminated…”? (Note: I can accept “reduced” not sure about “eliminated.”) What my Catholic friends call indulgences my protestant companions would term grace.

Now, before the scalping knives come out; I can already hear the war drums, let me add this. I respectfully disagree with Catholics that the “indulgences” are granted by the church. Grace is the sole domain of our merciful Father YHWH. In the meantime, I will take all the indulgences I can get.

I have always wondered how God "keeps the scorecards" for His children.

I grew up in the WELS (Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Church,) which always made the distinction that Martin Luther's rejection of the Catholic Indulgence system was just one of the many reasons why the Lutherans are a separate entity to begin with.

Being among the Christian community all my life, I have often seen, and wondered why some of the best Christians I know seem to be given no spiritual leeway at all, and in fact seem to be tested all the more. Some of the best Christians I know have been repeatedly hit with cancer diagnoses (and several different kinds of cancer at that,) wayward children (even in the Bible, Samuel, one of the prolific prophets to have ever lived, had sons that did not follow God,) and every kind of heartache this world can dish out -- continuously.

On the other hand, I've seen others -- some Christian, and some not -- choose more wayward things, but seem to get more than this world's worth of leniency -- repeatedly.

I guess it's the age-old question: "Why do bad things happen to good (God-fearing) people?"

And the thing is, we never know exactly how much grace we're going to be given in this life, or how it will manifest. I hear the rare miracle story every now and then of the baseball-sized tumor that disappeared; but none of the countless numbers of Christians I was asked to pray for last year for similar issues ever received a miracle. Rather, they lost body parts or died -- or succumbed to both.

It also reminds me of the Bible story in which Jesus was asked about a group of Galileans who were apparently killed by Pilate when coming to the temple to sacrifice.

Jesus replied, "Do you think these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or do you think those 18 who died when the tower of Siloam fell on them -- do you think they were more guilty than all the others in Jerusalem? I tell you no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish." -- Luke 13:2-5

The Lutheran church I grew up in gave off a strong sense that if you just did the right things, if you just adhered to all the rules, if you just prayed and read the Bible and did your best to be "good," your suffering in this life would be minimal or perhaps even excused.

Those who did fall into hard times were immediately scrutinized for what they must have done wrong that caused the Lord to overlook their sin, and dole out what must be righteous punishment or correction.

It's too bad, and with some contention for the way I've seen people treated "in the name of the Lord," that we have no way of knowing whether or not God gives "indulgences" in this life, or what kind of system (if any) He uses to choose who gets them and when.

Even David, "the man after God's own heart," did not escape this life without severe consequences ("the sword shall never depart from your house," and the thousands of people killed for David's sin, not necessarily their own, when God told him to choose from 3 punishments.)

Does God give indulgences? Even if He does, I don't know His system or how he decides how it's doled out -- and it's obviously not going to help me much trying to figure it out.

I guess all I can do is cower with continued repentance for my own sins -- especially the pet ones I surely wish there were "indulgences" for -- and trust that He is sovereign above all.

 

[Cameron143]

I believe the selling of indulgences led to Luther writing the 99 theses (sp?)

95

 

[Cameron143]

We have an indulgence...if any man sin he can confess his sin. Another indulgence...He works all things for good...Another...it was good for me to be afflicted...

God is at every moment performing that which is the very best for us. Nothing can separate us from that love.

 

[Seeker47]

I have always wondered how God "keeps the scorecards" for His children.

I grew up in the WELS (Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Church,) which always made the distinction that Martin Luther's rejection of the Catholic Indulgence system was just one of the many reasons why the Lutherans are a separate entity to begin with.

Being among the Christian community all my life, I have often seen, and wondered why some of the best Christians I know seem to be given no spiritual leeway at all, and in fact seem to be tested all the more. Some of the best Christians I know have been repeatedly hit with cancer diagnoses (and several different kinds of cancer at that,) wayward children (even in the Bible, Samuel, one of the prolific prophets to have ever lived, had sons that did not follow God,) and every kind of heartache this world can dish out -- continuously.

On the other hand, I've seen others -- some Christian, and some not -- choose more wayward things, but seem to get more than this world's worth of leniency -- repeatedly.

I guess it's the age-old question: "Why do bad things happen to good (God-fearing) people?"

And the thing is, we never know exactly how much grace we're going to be given in this life, or how it will manifest. I hear the rare miracle story every now and then of the baseball-sized tumor that disappeared; but none of the countless numbers of Christians I was asked to pray for last year for similar issues ever received a miracle. Rather, they lost body parts or died -- or succumbed to both.

It also reminds me of the Bible story in which Jesus was asked about a group of Galileans who were apparently killed by Pilate when coming to the temple to sacrifice.

Jesus replied, "Do you think these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or do you think those 18 who died when the tower of Siloam fell on them -- do you think they were more guilty than all the others in Jerusalem? I tell you no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish." -- Luke 13:2-5

The Lutheran church I grew up in gave off a strong sense that if you just did the right things, if you just adhered to all the rules, if you just prayed and read the Bible and did your best to be "good," your suffering in this life would be minimal or perhaps even excused.

Those who did fall into hard times were immediately scrutinized for what they must have done wrong that caused the Lord to overlook their sin, and dole out what must be righteous punishment or correction.

It's too bad, and with some contention for the way I've seen people treated "in the name of the Lord," that we have no way of knowing whether or not God gives "indulgences" in this life, or what kind of system (if any) He uses to choose who gets them and when.

Even David, "the man after God's own heart," did not escape this life without severe consequences ("the sword shall never depart from your house," and the thousands of people killed for David's sin, not necessarily their own, when God told him to choose from 3 punishments.)

Does God give indulgences? Even if He does, I don't know His system or how he decides how it's doled out -- and it's obviously not going to help me much trying to figure it out.

I guess all I can do is cower with continued repentance for my own sins -- especially the pet ones I surely wish there were "indulgences" for -- and trust that He is sovereign above all.

There is a lot to your response.

First, an indulgence (grace) is different than a miracle. A miracle, and they are real: is a direct intervention by God. An indulgence (grace) is, in my opinion, a method God establishes to allow truly repentant souls to mitigate to some degree, the earthly consequences of our sin. I believe this requires us to accept responsibility and take reasonable steps to minimize the consequences of our behavior on others.

God has given man freedom of choice and we can experience real evil in our lives with no fault of our own. That's a different issue.

I think God wants us to work in this world. There is always things we can do to repay our debts to others. Cowering is not his will.

 

[seoulsearch]

There is a lot to your response.

First, an indulgence (grace) is different than a miracle. A miracle, and they are real: is a direct intervention by God. An indulgence (grace) is, in my opinion, a method God establishes to allow truly repentant souls to mitigate to some degree, the earthly consequences of our sin. I believe this requires us to accept responsibility and take reasonable steps to minimize the consequences of our behavior on others.

God has given man freedom of choice and we can experience real evil in our lives with no fault of our own. That's a different issue.

I think God wants us to work in this world. There is always things we can do to repay our debts to others. Cowering is not his will.

I think it could be that we have different definitions of the words being used.

I see grace as anything God does for us that is unmerited, cannot be earned, and that He gives freely out of His own character that we humans could do nothing to deserve -- so in other words, pretty much everything He ever does for us.

Therefore, I also see miracles as acts of God's grace and just one of the many ways He chooses to express this part of His nature.

The reason I mention "cowering in continued repentance" is because I have to continually remind myself of the nature of God's grace -- that nothing I could do could ever earn or deserve it, and so I say "cower" as a synonym for retaining enough humility to always remember that we are sinners who deserve no less than eternal punishment/separation from God.

It might be my background, but whenever I see the word "indulgence", I associate it very closely with the notion of a "Get Out of Jail Free" card to sin. I do understand that in this thread (if I'm reading it correctly, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong,) you are describing "indulgences" as further acts and expressions of God's grace instead.

Being raised the way I was, for me, "indulgence" (the word itself) comes very close to an excuse or "teeter totter" to sin -- "I did X today, but hopefully God will give me the indulgence -- grace -- to overlook it, forgive it, or at least no punish me quite as severely." Or, they might think that the "good" they do somehow "outweighs" the "bad" and will "let them off" on a "lighter sentence" -- whether in this world, or the next.

I've grown up around many people who think this way.

I do think I understand what you mean by indulgences here (God acting out His grace in our lives.)

Unfortunately, in the circles I've been around, that would surely dissolve into arguments over "how much" one can use grace as "balance" (excuse) to sin (which should be not at all, of course.)


But... good old human nature -- we're always trying to get away with something.

 

[NightTwister]

"When the coin in the coffer rings, the soul from purgatory springs."

 

[Gideon300]

I not sure if this is brave or stupid:

While researching Jubilee for an earlier post I stumbled across this comment from a Catholic web site:
“By fulfilling certain conditions, including prayers, a pilgrimage, or acts of charity, Catholics can receive indulgences, which reduce or eliminate temporal punishment for sins.”
My instant reaction was probably much like yours, but then I noticed the words “…reduce or eliminate temporal punishment for sins.”

We all know the redemptive blood of our Savior frees us from the spiritual curse of sin, but does NOT free us from earthly consequences. Those are still ours. In fact, YHWH himself established these “temporal” consequences of sin, and some are very severe.

When raising my children, disciplinary functions were mine. I tried to clearly communicate right and wrong, but could not possibly make discipline a mechanical operation. When a lesson had already been learned, a cost already paid, or a contrite heart demonstrated, justice had to be tempered with grace.

Does our Father do the same thing? If we are truly contrite, attempt to pay for our mistakes, seek to right our wrongs, and try to never repeat our sin; is our temporal punishments “…reduced or eliminated…”? (Note: I can accept “reduced” not sure about “eliminated.”) What my Catholic friends call indulgences my protestant companions would term grace.

Now, before the scalping knives come out; I can already hear the war drums, let me add this. I respectfully disagree with Catholics that the “indulgences” are granted by the church. Grace is the sole domain of our merciful Father YHWH. In the meantime, I will take all the indulgences I can get.

It's a good question. God allows us to suffer the consequence of sin in order to discipline us. He may lift His protection at times. I can attest to that. I was angry and resentful one time. I'd lost my job, I could not see how i could provide for my family and deep down, I knew it was my fault. One night, my car was vandalised. Two brand new tyres were slashed. That's one way for God to get your attention. No, God did not cause it to happen. But neither did He prevent it.

It is good to do what we can to right wrongs that we have done. It takes away a basis for Satan to accuse us and is a witness to the world. I know a woman who used to rob the till at the job she had. It was not enough to raise the alarm with management, so she got away with it. After she was saved, she was convicted and went back to repay the money. The business owner was amazed and she was able to witness to him.

There are three kinds of "storms" in our lives. Jonah went through a storm of rebellion. The storm stopped when Jonah confessed his sin. God relented when Jonah cried out to Him. There is the storm of presumption. A ship's captain, who knew better, tried to beat the seasonal weather change that was like clockwork. Sure enough, the storm came and everyone, including the aspostle Paul, ended up in the sea. Finally, there is a storm that is on account of God's word. Jesus said to sail across the lake. Satan sent a storm to prevent this. Jesus rebuked the storm and so the journey completed.

When everything is going wrong, we need to know the reason. Is God telling us that we are in rebellion and disobedience? We need to repent and change course. Is God telling us that we are presumptuous? I knew someone who had no money after attending an interstate conference. He went to the airport, fully expecting someone to come up to him and give him the airfare. I know, because he came back from the airport much chastened. Many believers have experienced great opposition when they receive a word from God. One I know of was a pastor who sought to build a church building. He believed that he had the right site and had bought the land. The city authorities did all that they could to avoid giving a permit to build. The pastor refused to give up and there is a thriving church there now.

 

[Gideon300]

I not sure if this is brave or stupid:

While researching Jubilee for an earlier post I stumbled across this comment from a Catholic web site:
“By fulfilling certain conditions, including prayers, a pilgrimage, or acts of charity, Catholics can receive indulgences, which reduce or eliminate temporal punishment for sins.”
My instant reaction was probably much like yours, but then I noticed the words “…reduce or eliminate temporal punishment for sins.”

We all know the redemptive blood of our Savior frees us from the spiritual curse of sin, but does NOT free us from earthly consequences. Those are still ours. In fact, YHWH himself established these “temporal” consequences of sin, and some are very severe.

When raising my children, disciplinary functions were mine. I tried to clearly communicate right and wrong, but could not possibly make discipline a mechanical operation. When a lesson had already been learned, a cost already paid, or a contrite heart demonstrated, justice had to be tempered with grace.

Does our Father do the same thing? If we are truly contrite, attempt to pay for our mistakes, seek to right our wrongs, and try to never repeat our sin; is our temporal punishments “…reduced or eliminated…”? (Note: I can accept “reduced” not sure about “eliminated.”) What my Catholic friends call indulgences my protestant companions would term grace.

Now, before the scalping knives come out; I can already hear the war drums, let me add this. I respectfully disagree with Catholics that the “indulgences” are granted by the church. Grace is the sole domain of our merciful Father YHWH. In the meantime, I will take all the indulgences I can get.

Further to my previous comments, we need mercy. Grace is God doing for us what we cannot do for ourselves. Mercy is God not treating us as we deserve. (Lamentations 3:22-23). When we are in trouble, we should approach God's throne of grace. We will find mercy to ease our troubles and grace to deliver us from the cause of the trouble. (Hebrews 4:16).

 

[Doll]

I not sure if this is brave or stupid:

While researching Jubilee for an earlier post I stumbled across this comment from a Catholic web site:
“By fulfilling certain conditions, including prayers, a pilgrimage, or acts of charity, Catholics can receive indulgences, which reduce or eliminate temporal punishment for sins.”
My instant reaction was probably much like yours, but then I noticed the words “…reduce or eliminate temporal punishment for sins.”

We all know the redemptive blood of our Savior frees us from the spiritual curse of sin, but does NOT free us from earthly consequences. Those are still ours. In fact, YHWH himself established these “temporal” consequences of sin, and some are very severe.

When raising my children, disciplinary functions were mine. I tried to clearly communicate right and wrong, but could not possibly make discipline a mechanical operation. When a lesson had already been learned, a cost already paid, or a contrite heart demonstrated, justice had to be tempered with grace.

Does our Father do the same thing? If we are truly contrite, attempt to pay for our mistakes, seek to right our wrongs, and try to never repeat our sin; is our temporal punishments “…reduced or eliminated…”? (Note: I can accept “reduced” not sure about “eliminated.”) What my Catholic friends call indulgences my protestant companions would term grace.

Now, before the scalping knives come out; I can already hear the war drums, let me add this. I respectfully disagree with Catholics that the “indulgences” are granted by the church. Grace is the sole domain of our merciful Father YHWH. In the meantime, I will take all the indulgences I can get.

Reading that about indulgences reminded me of comedian George Carlin.
"There's an invisible man in the sky......and HE NEEDS MONEY!"

The Vatican,Holy See. One of,if not the, smallest sovereign states on earth. And,the richest.

 

[Lynx]

I not sure if this is brave or stupid:

While researching Jubilee for an earlier post I stumbled across this comment from a Catholic web site:
“By fulfilling certain conditions, including prayers, a pilgrimage, or acts of charity, Catholics can receive indulgences, which reduce or eliminate temporal punishment for sins.”
My instant reaction was probably much like yours, but then I noticed the words “…reduce or eliminate temporal punishment for sins.”

We all know the redemptive blood of our Savior frees us from the spiritual curse of sin, but does NOT free us from earthly consequences. Those are still ours. In fact, YHWH himself established these “temporal” consequences of sin, and some are very severe.

When raising my children, disciplinary functions were mine. I tried to clearly communicate right and wrong, but could not possibly make discipline a mechanical operation. When a lesson had already been learned, a cost already paid, or a contrite heart demonstrated, justice had to be tempered with grace.

Does our Father do the same thing? If we are truly contrite, attempt to pay for our mistakes, seek to right our wrongs, and try to never repeat our sin; is our temporal punishments “…reduced or eliminated…”? (Note: I can accept “reduced” not sure about “eliminated.”) What my Catholic friends call indulgences my protestant companions would term grace.

Now, before the scalping knives come out; I can already hear the war drums, let me add this. I respectfully disagree with Catholics that the “indulgences” are granted by the church. Grace is the sole domain of our merciful Father YHWH. In the meantime, I will take all the indulgences I can get.

Temporal punishments... ha! That's not God whacking us on the head because we disobeyed. That's the damage sin causes. Like... That's the whole REASON God labeled some things as sin. Sin hurts us, and God doesn't want us to have to endure those temporal punishments, so God said don't do these things.

If you sleep around you're gonna have a lot of baby momma drama to deal with. If you drink a lot you're gonna make a lot of dumb choices, and wind up with a lot of health problems you shouldn't have to be dealing with. Sin wrecks stuff. That's not God's fault, punishing us. That's our fault, cause we broke our lives by running them the wrong way.

The only way to reduce or eliminate the temporal punishments from sin is to stop doing the things that we are wearing out our lives with. No indulgences are going to fix that.

In fact the Bible says obedience is better than sacrifice. Doing all kinds of things extra for my car won't make up for not getting the oil changed regularly, and it won't do a thing to help the tires I keep squealing. Going out of my way to do all kinds of extra Christian-ish things won't make up for the thing I'm letting slide in my life, and it sure won't help me when I deliberately do something that breaks my life.

So yeah, not only do indulgences not fix the problem, not only do they indirectly blame God for the damage sin causes, but they directly contradict what the Bible says.

 

[Seeker47]

Temporal punishments... ha! That's not God whacking us on the head because we disobeyed. That's the damage sin causes. Like... That's the whole REASON God labeled some things as sin. Sin hurts us, and God doesn't want us to have to endure those temporal punishments, so God said don't do these things.

If you sleep around you're gonna have a lot of baby momma drama to deal with. If you drink a lot you're gonna make a lot of dumb choices, and wind up with a lot of health problems you shouldn't have to be dealing with. Sin wrecks stuff. That's not God's fault, punishing us. That's our fault, cause we broke our lives by running them the wrong way.

The only way to reduce or eliminate the temporal punishments from sin is to stop doing the things that we are wearing out our lives with. No indulgences are going to fix that.

In fact the Bible says obedience is better than sacrifice. Doing all kinds of things extra for my car won't make up for not getting the oil changed regularly, and it won't do a thing to help the tires I keep squealing. Going out of my way to do all kinds of extra Christian-ish things won't make up for the thing I'm letting slide in my life, and it sure won't help me when I deliberately do something that breaks my life.

So yeah, not only do indulgences not fix the problem, not only do they indirectly blame God for the damage sin causes, but they directly contradict what the Bible says.

I don't believe acts of atonement "fix" anything. I also don't believe God wants us to walk away from the damage we have caused, washing our hands and leaving it up to Him. Correcting our actions, restitution to victims if you will, is God's requirements for us who acknowledge we are sinners. These acts of restitution mitigate the temporal (earthly) punishment we would otherwise receive; AKA an "indulgence". I believe this is God's plan, our responsibility, and the natural outcome for following His instructions.

Is this not also His spiritual plan? We accept Jesus Christ as our savior; a sacrifice of self, and the punishment due for our crimes is negated; a spiritual indulgence if you will.