Saved by faith alone?

[LightBearer316]

When you have the temptation to do something naughty, but refrain from doing so out of obedience to the spirit, that's not God doing his work through you, but you doing his work in obedience to his spirit.

That’s a great observation — and I agree that when we obey the Spirit’s prompting, we are indeed actively participating in that obedience. We’re not passive robots.

The distinction I’m drawing isn’t about who performs the action outwardly — obviously, we make real choices and exert real effort. The key is where the power and desire originate.

Philippians 2:13 captures both sides perfectly:

“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.”​

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So when I resist temptation, it’s me obeying — but it’s God’s Spirit supplying the will, conviction, and strength to do so (Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:13).

In that sense, our obedience is genuinely ours, yet ultimately His work within us — our cooperation with divine enablement. Paul expressed it beautifully:

“I labored more abundantly than they all — yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.” (1 Corinthians 15:10)​

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So yes, we act, but we act because He empowers us to. That’s what makes our obedience both real and grace-dependent.

Grace and peace, brother.

 

[Magenta]

The main 2 words used for obedience are hupakouo (literally to hear under) and peitho (to be persuaded). These
speak of an inner submission to what's heard and an inner submissive alignment. Pistis (faith) is rooted in peitho.

We're dealing with words that first deal with the inner man.

Yes, we have been telling you that for quite some time now...

 

[mailmandan]

Where does faith reside in men Rom10:10? Where does obedience/submission reside in men Rom6:17? These 2 words are functionally synonymous when it comes to biblical pistis. They are first internal together. They are lived out in good works. Thus the formula: faith/obedience + good works.

The main 2 words used for obedience are hupakouo (literally to hear under) and peitho (to be persuaded). These speak of an inner submission to what's heard and an inner submissive alignment. Pistis (faith) is rooted in peitho.

We're dealing with words that first deal with the inner man.

We believe in our heart (Romans 10:10) and we obey from the heart. (Romans 6:17) Before they obeyed that form of doctrine they had been slaves to sin. Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

Elsewhere in scripture, we read:
Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”
1 Peter 1:22 - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth."
Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by faith."

 

[Magenta]

You're getting into the total inability thing, which I fully reject. Basically what you're saying is that if a person chooses of
his own free will to not sin by stealing something, then he is not walking according to the spirit, which is just ridiculous

He could be walking according to the law. Your view has everyone obeying
the law (do not steal) as walking in the spirit. That is just ridiculous.

 

[Cameron143]

You're getting into the total inability thing, which I fully reject. Basically what you're saying is that if a person chooses of his own free will to not sin by stealing something, then he is not walking according to the spirit, which is just ridiculous

Let's explore what you have said. Did the Pharisees keep the law?

 

[Cameron143]

Inevitable here.

Only when one assumes it into the conversation.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

So when I resist temptation, it’s me obeying — but it’s God’s Spirit supplying the will, conviction, and strength to do so (Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:13).

I agree with this mostly, but I have had experiences in which I had to, of my own will, not do something because I knew the word says it's sin. I didn't feel like I was getting any help from God, so I took matters into my own hands. Am I righteous for doing that? No. Did I sin? No. So I worked righteousness from my own will and effort because the word, which came from the spirit, instructed me to act that way, or rather, to not act that way. My conscience is clean and God didn't have anything to do with it other than giving me a heart to follow him and instructing me through his word.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

He could be walking according to the law. Your view has everyone obeying
the law (do not steal) as walking in the spirit. That is just ridiculous.

The law's not evil. If that's what it takes to keep a person from sinning, then God is not offended. The law instructs in the way of righteousness, but it can't make a person righteous

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Let's explore what you have said. Did the Pharisees keep the law?

Nobody but Christ can keep the whole law, but everyone can keep parts of it. So yes, the pharisees kept parts of the law, like most everyone does, but they didn't keep the whole law which is required to be declared righteous.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Only when one assumes it into the conversation.

It's not assumed. It's way out in the open

 

[Cameron143]

Nobody but Christ can keep the whole law, but everyone can keep parts of it. So yes, the pharisees kept parts of the law, like most everyone does, but they didn't keep the whole law which is required to be declared righteous.

What was lacking?

 

[Cameron143]

It's not assumed. It's way out in the open

You brought it up; not me. I shared scripture. I never posted concerning inability.

 

[LightBearer316]

I agree with this mostly, but I have had experiences in which I had to, of my own will, not do something because I knew the word says it's sin. I didn't feel like I was getting any help from God, so I took matters into my own hands. Am I righteous for doing that? No. Did I sin? No. So I worked righteousness from my own will and effort because the word, which came from the spirit, instructed me to act that way, or rather, to not act that way. My conscience is clean and God didn't have anything to do with it other than giving me a heart to follow him and instructing me through his word.

I really appreciate your honesty in sharing that — and I think many of us can relate to what you described. There are definitely moments when God’s help doesn’t feel present, and we simply have to act on what we know from His Word.

But even in those moments, the fact that you desired to obey, recognized sin for what it was, and chose righteousness because of what God has revealed shows that His grace was already at work in you. The Spirit doesn’t always move us by emotion or visible strength — sometimes He works quietly through conviction, truth, and a renewed mind (Romans 12:2; Philippians 2:13).

So while it may seem like you acted from your own willpower, Scripture teaches that even the will to obey is a gift of grace:

“It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:13)​

You’re right — you weren’t made righteous by that single act, but that act showed righteousness being formed in you by God’s Spirit. That’s cooperation with grace — our real obedience, empowered by His quiet, sustaining work.

Grace and peace, brother — and thank you for that thoughtful insight.

 

[HeIsHere]

Excellent question — and one that goes right to the heart of James’ message.

A “dead faith” is a faith that exists in word or intellect only, but shows no life, transformation, or fruit that comes from the Spirit of God. James isn’t saying works add to salvation; he’s saying that genuine, saving faith always produces evidence of new life.

James gives practical examples:

“If a brother or sister be naked, and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled… and ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?” (James 2:15–16).​

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In other words, a faith that doesn’t act is faith that doesn’t live. It’s like a body without breath.

“For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” (James 2:26)​

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A “dead faith” acknowledges truth about God but doesn’t trust or obey Him. Even demons believe certain truths about God (James 2:19), but they do not love or follow Him.

By contrast, living faith unites us to Christ — and that union inevitably bears fruit: obedience, love, and transformation (John 15:5; Galatians 5:6).

So, to summarize:

Dead faith = mere belief without transformation.​

Living faith = trust in Christ that produces obedience through grace.​

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James’ warning is that mere profession cannot save — only a faith that is alive in Christ, proven by the Spirit’s work within us, is genuine.

Paul emphasizes the root of salvation—faith by grace.
Peter emphasizes the fruit of salvation—repentance and holiness.
Jesus unites them both: “Repent, and believe the gospel” (Mark 1:15).
James insists on the proof: “faith without works is dead” (James 2:26).

They’re not contradicting each other — they’re all describing the same gospel from different angles. Genuine faith (Paul) leads to repentance and holiness (Peter), which inevitably shows itself in action (James).

The gospel calls us not only to believe but also to be transformed. Faith, repentance, and holiness all flow together in the life of one who truly belongs to Christ.

Grace and peace as we each examine ourselves, whether we be in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5).

I have not read the word "genuine" in front of saving faith in the letters by Paul.
Is there such a verse or is this a modern day construct?

And you should know a "dead faith" is in no way synonymous with "a mere profession of faith
James was writing to his brothers in Christ.

 

[LightBearer316]

I have not read the word "genuine" in front of saving faith in the letters by Paul.
Is there such a verse or is this a modern day construct?

And you should know a "dead faith" is in no way synonymous with "a mere profession of faith
James was writing to his brothers in Christ.

Brother, you raise a fair question — and it’s worth answering carefully from Scripture.

You’re right that the phrase “genuine faith” doesn’t appear in those exact words in Paul’s letters. But the concept absolutely does. Paul distinguishes between a living, sincere faith and an empty, false one throughout his writings.

For example:

• 1 Timothy 1:5 — “Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned.” (That word unfeigned literally means genuine or not pretended.)
• Romans 12:9 — “Let love be without dissimulation.” The same principle — true vs. false — runs throughout Paul’s teaching.
• 2 Timothy 1:5 — Paul commends Timothy for his unfeigned faith, the same word again, showing that faith can be sincere or insincere.

So when we say “genuine faith,” we’re simply restating Paul’s own language of unfeigned faith — faith that is real, not hypocritical.

As for “dead faith,” James isn’t denying his readers’ profession; he’s warning that a professed faith can exist without the fruit of the Spirit. In that sense, yes, he’s addressing believers by name, but his concern is the condition of their faith — that it not become barren or useless (James 2:20).

Paul and James are perfectly aligned:

• Paul warns of those who “profess that they know God; but in works they deny him” (Titus 1:16).
• James warns that “faith without works is dead” (James 2:26).

Both describe the same reality — a lifeless profession versus a living, Spirit-born trust.

So “genuine faith” isn’t a modern invention; it’s the biblical idea of unfeigned faith — the kind that lives, breathes, and produces fruit by the power of God’s grace.

Grace and peace.

 

[HeIsHere]

Brother, you raise a fair question — and it’s worth answering carefully from Scripture.

You’re right that the phrase “genuine faith” doesn’t appear in those exact words in Paul’s letters. But the concept absolutely does. Paul distinguishes between a living, sincere faith and an empty, false one throughout his writings.

For example:

• 1 Timothy 1:5 — “Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned.” (That word unfeigned literally means genuine or not pretended.)
• Romans 12:9 — “Let love be without dissimulation.” The same principle — true vs. false — runs throughout Paul’s teaching.
• 2 Timothy 1:5 — Paul commends Timothy for his unfeigned faith, the same word again, showing that faith can be sincere or insincere.

So when we say “genuine faith,” we’re simply restating Paul’s own language of unfeigned faith — faith that is real, not hypocritical.

As for “dead faith,” James isn’t denying his readers’ profession; he’s warning that a professed faith can exist without the fruit of the Spirit. In that sense, yes, he’s addressing believers by name, but his concern is the condition of their faith — that it not become barren or useless (James 2:20).

Paul and James are perfectly aligned:

• Paul warns of those who “profess that they know God; but in works they deny him” (Titus 1:16).
• James warns that “faith without works is dead” (James 2:26).

Both describe the same reality — a lifeless profession versus a living, Spirit-born trust.

So “genuine faith” isn’t a modern invention; it’s the biblical idea of unfeigned faith — the kind that lives, breathes, and produces fruit by the power of God’s grace.

Grace and peace.

So in the first century when the Jewish converts were facing persecution they were feigning faith so they could be persecuted?

 

[Magenta]

The law's not evil. If that's what it takes to keep a person from sinning, then God is not offended. The law instructs in the way of righteousness, but it can't make a person righteous

Miss the point much? Not stealing does not automatically mean someone is walking in/by the Spirit.

Plus I did not say the law was evil. Why do you even introduce such concepts?

 

[LightBearer316]

So in the first century when the Jewish converts were facing persecution they were feigning faith so they could be persecuted?

Brother, I see your point — but that’s not what James or Paul were addressing.

When Scripture speaks of feigned or unfeigned faith, it isn’t suggesting that believers were pretending to believe in order to be persecuted. Rather, it’s distinguishing between those whose faith endures under trial and those whose faith proves hollow when tested.

In the first century, persecution revealed who truly trusted Christ. That’s exactly why Peter writes,

“The trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ.” (1 Peter 1:7)​

Genuine (unfeigned) faith endures the fire. False faith withers in it.

James wasn’t saying these Jewish believers were faking faith for persecution — he was urging them not to let their faith grow barren or inactive under pressure. They were professing believers scattered abroad (James 1:1), but many were struggling to live out their faith amid hardship and temptation. Hence his call:

“Be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only.” (James 1:22)​

So, the issue isn’t persecution proving they faked belief — it’s persecution and trials testing whether their faith was alive and rooted in obedience.

Paul and James both affirm that true faith perseveres and bears fruit, even when the world presses hard against it.

Grace and peace, brother — may our faith be the kind that stands firm when tested.

 

[HeIsHere]

Brother, I see your point — but that’s not what James or Paul were addressing.

When Scripture speaks of feigned or unfeigned faith, it isn’t suggesting that believers were pretending to believe in order to be persecuted. Rather, it’s distinguishing between those whose faith endures under trial and those whose faith proves hollow when tested.

In the first century, persecution revealed who truly trusted Christ. That’s exactly why Peter writes,

“The trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ.” (1 Peter 1:7)​

Genuine (unfeigned) faith endures the fire. False faith withers in it.

James wasn’t saying these Jewish believers were faking faith for persecution — he was urging them not to let their faith grow barren or inactive under pressure. They were professing believers scattered abroad (James 1:1), but many were struggling to live out their faith amid hardship and temptation. Hence his call:

“Be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only.” (James 1:22)​

So, the issue isn’t persecution proving they faked belief — it’s persecution and trials testing whether their faith was alive and rooted in obedience.

Paul and James both affirm that true faith perseveres and bears fruit, even when the world presses hard against it.

Grace and peace, brother — may our faith be the kind that stands firm when tested.

So then "faith" is real based upon its performance under persecution?

 

[LightBearer316]

So then "faith" is real based upon its performance under persecution?

Brother, not quite — faith isn’t made real by performance; it’s revealed as real by endurance.

Just as fire doesn’t create gold but proves its purity, trials don’t create saving faith — they expose whether faith is genuine. Peter’s analogy makes this clear:
“The trial of your faith… though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory.” (1 Peter 1:7)
The fire didn’t make the gold gold — it showed what was already there.

Faith is “the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8), rooted in Christ’s finished work, not in our performance. Yet living faith naturally shows itself in trust and obedience, even under pressure — whereas empty profession collapses when tested (Matthew 13:20-21).

So the point isn’t that faith becomes real through trials, but that trials reveal what kind of faith we already have — living or lifeless.

Grace and peace, brother — may our faith be proven genuine, not by our strength, but by the steadfast grace of the One who sustains it.